How many miles on these components....

[gasmike]

These are Westwood spun liners taken from a rebuilt rover k series engine. I'm interested to here engine builders thoughts on their condition and estimated milage if that is at all possible to have a guess at as I was told they are extremely worn and needed replacing which I found odd due to their age. The engine burnt oil and suffered severe blow by past the rings which was the cause of large volumes of oil entering my catch can.

Thanks....

[gasmike]

Edited by gasmike on Sunday 29th May 19:19

[stevieturbo]

miles ? impossible to say.

But there is a lot of scoring, and what are those weird marks around the bore, 2 of them ? And not an awful lot of nice visible honing on it either

Externally seems a bit rusty, was there no proper coolant in place ? Or just water ?

If they cannot be bored to take larger pistons, then it would seem new liners may be needed. Are the pistons as badly scored ?

[steveo3002]

my guess is the lines are where its been stood too long and the rings started to stick rust to the bore

[gasmike]

I removed the head as I suspected the head gasket had gone (coolant system pressuring) the car was then stood for 6 months with the head removed when it was clear my issues were not head gasket related. The rust/black marks are from where coolant or water sat.

[gasmike]

The liners were found to be 3 thou over sized having only covered a maximum of 1000 miles....

The pistons looked like this.....

[E-bmw]

Was that how the rings were spaced?

If so, the gaps should have been spaced evenly around the bore I think.

Whether it would be a major problem, I am sure others will be along to confirm.

[stevieturbo]

Piston doesn't look that bad really. And rings can rotate, if they end up in alignment it could indicate an oval bore.

But are you saying the bore is 3 thou oversize from when it was installed suggesting somehow it has grown ? or there is 3 thou piston to wall clearance ? And a hot or cold measurement ?

[DVandrews]

stevieturbo said:

Piston doesn't look that bad really. And rings can rotate, if they end up in alignment it could indicate an oval bore.

But are you saying the bore is 3 thou oversize from when it was installed suggesting somehow it has grown ? or there is 3 thou piston to wall clearance ? And a hot or cold measurement ?

3 thou ovality..

Dave

[gasmike]

Yes, opologies. 3 thou ovality.....
It burnt through some oil that is for certain and was most certainly pressurising my crank case.
I tried to manage it by designing my own ventilation system for the engine but the blow by was to much to manage. I could only do 3 hot laps around blyton park prior to the catch can being full of oil and the consequent oil slicks that followed endangering all on track. The liner heights were also found to be all over the place causing my coolant system to pressurise.







How does that even happen on a sub 1000 mile engine?
The company was suppose to be a specialist in race engine building...... couldn't get 3 laps out of it.....

How do bores go out by that tolerance in such minal miles?

[Boosted LS1]

How was the engine mapped and run in? What were the AFR's and was this a totally fresh mapping session ie a tune from scratch?

[Boosted LS1]

DVandrews said:

stevieturbo said:

Piston doesn't look that bad really. And rings can rotate, if they end up in alignment it could indicate an oval bore.

But are you saying the bore is 3 thou oversize from when it was installed suggesting somehow it has grown ? or there is 3 thou piston to wall clearance ? And a hot or cold measurement ?

3 thou ovality..

Dave

How can that be when there's barely any wear on the piston skirts? Is this a worn block that's had a light hone in order to retain stock pistons? I'd imagine the honing marks to be deeper on the non thrust sides of the bores if this is the case?

Edited by Boosted LS1 on Wednesday 15th June 08:41

[chrisch77]

How was the ovality measured, were the liners still in the block at that stage?

[Boosted LS1]

E-bmw said:

Was that how the rings were spaced?

If so, the gaps should have been spaced evenly around the bore I think.

Whether it would be a major problem, I am sure others will be along to confirm.

Rings rotate at different speeds depending on thickness and material etc.

[DVandrews]

Boosted LS1 said:

How can that be when there's barely any wear on the piston skirts? Is this a worn block that's had a light hone in order to retain stock pistons? I'd imagine the honing marks to be deeper on the non thrust sides of the bores if this is the case?

Edited by Boosted LS1 on Wednesday 15th June 08:41

It doesn’t help that the liner is viewed from the bottom rather than the top where the action is.

The engine has had a chequered past , having endured some previous failures, the fuelling was all to hell as the injectors were duffers, bore washing is probable, oil consumption was astronomic as a result, you could hear the piston slap and the blow by was like a leaf blower. I measured the liners in situ with the same gauge I have had for 30 years plus.

The picture of the head below above gives an idea of the extent of the oil burning, it had covered less than a 1000 miles from when the head was clean, the valves were freshly clean and lapped as shown in the next photos



Before










One thingis sure, it would be a cold day in hell when I re-used liners in that condition, or pistons for that matter. The rods too had been kludged to fit , with chunks taken out of the flanks and from the supportive oil rail at the bottom of the engine to clear the bearing caps…

It has now been rebuilt with proper componentry and correct tolerances.

Dave

Edited by DVandrews on Wednesday 15th June 15:51

[Boosted LS1]

Bore wash was my suspicion when I saw the scratches on the pistons/bores hence why I asked about the initial start up. I also thought the liners looked slightly polished which would be a sign of insufficient lubrication. I guess that could account for wear if that wasn't already present.

What is happening between the 2 right hand combustion chambers in your first pic? I can't work it out?

Edited by Boosted LS1 on Wednesday 15th June 17:36

[DVandrews]

Boosted LS1 said:

Bore wash was my suspicion when I saw the scratches on the pistons/bores hence why I asked about the initial start up. I also thought the liners looked slightly polished which would be a sign of insufficient lubrication. I guess that could account for wear if that wasn't already present.

What is happening between the 2 right hand combustion chambers in your first pic? I can't work it out?

Edited by Boosted LS1 on Wednesday 15th June 17:36

You might well ask.. the original builder stuffed the engine with bars leak or similar garbage to try to stem coolant loss, this gums up everything , some of the residue has adhered to the head surface there I think.

Here is the (new) coolant pump after 1000 miles..



And the pump nacelle



And the block (this is s freshly built engine after 1000 miles..)



The outsides of the liners were coated with that gunk too..



You can see the result..

I think Michael has been right royally bored, screwed, countersunk and shafted.

Dave

[Boosted LS1]

There are some very interesting circular marks in that left hand cylinder. Is it anything to do with the honing or something else?

[ChocolateFrog]

Well I'm not an engine builder but that bore looks shagged to me.

Even on 100k + mile engines you can usually still see the honing marks if it's been looked after. You can clearly see score marks too.

[DVandrews]

Boosted LS1 said:

There are some very interesting circular marks in that left hand cylinder. Is it anything to do with the honing or something else?

Not exactly sure which marks you mean, the block shown is devoid of liners so the ‘cylinder’ is just a receptacle for the liner.

If you mean the circular ring marks in the liner then the cause is moisture/coolant in the bore which rusts the rings to the bore, the engine had a coolant leak into the cylinders, the coolant pools round the ring line and creates the tide mark, when the engine was dormant the damage was done. The resulting iron oxide is a very effective abrasive… so it wipes out rings and bores.

Dave