Lack of UK flow benches?
Discussion
Hello everyone who is into head porting!
Its like most things in life, you don't what's available, till you go looking for it?
So I contacted a few folks about 'Bench time' ( a while back) and some were quite happy to rent a slot.
But Covid came and folks decided to retire or give up and/or worse...
So what is now available in the South for bench-time?
I've seen on here in the past some very interesting articles on DIY benching!
I'm quite capable 'like most' in 'building a bench' but would prefer just to hire or even BUY one...
What's your thoughts please and HNY from John H.
Its like most things in life, you don't what's available, till you go looking for it?
So I contacted a few folks about 'Bench time' ( a while back) and some were quite happy to rent a slot.
But Covid came and folks decided to retire or give up and/or worse...
So what is now available in the South for bench-time?
I've seen on here in the past some very interesting articles on DIY benching!
I'm quite capable 'like most' in 'building a bench' but would prefer just to hire or even BUY one...
What's your thoughts please and HNY from John H.
Jon,
You might like to look at making your own! See, "Practical Gas Flow" by John Dalton: https://www.amazon.co.uk/PRACTICAL-GAS-FLOW-Techni...
John (not Dalton)
You might like to look at making your own! See, "Practical Gas Flow" by John Dalton: https://www.amazon.co.uk/PRACTICAL-GAS-FLOW-Techni...
John (not Dalton)
Many thanx John!
'Practical gas flow' porting sounds coolio lol.
As with most fields of expertise, they is always agreeing to disagree about stuff?
With most things in Gasflow life, its all 'old hat' as my wife would say!
''Why bother with 50 year old iron heads''...
''You won't need a flow bench when we go all EV'' lol...
As David Vizard says, ''why spend out ten grand on a bench to flow two grands worth of heads''???
I probably have 50 heads, if it costs £100 per head to flow test then it could get expensive lol...
My biggest upset is seeing expensive equipment at million dollar workshops, 'sitting idle'.
But if you ask the shop owner if you can ''pay to use it'' you get a STERN, ''don't be so stupid, buy your own''...
'Practical gas flow' porting sounds coolio lol.
As with most fields of expertise, they is always agreeing to disagree about stuff?
With most things in Gasflow life, its all 'old hat' as my wife would say!
''Why bother with 50 year old iron heads''...
''You won't need a flow bench when we go all EV'' lol...
As David Vizard says, ''why spend out ten grand on a bench to flow two grands worth of heads''???
I probably have 50 heads, if it costs £100 per head to flow test then it could get expensive lol...
My biggest upset is seeing expensive equipment at million dollar workshops, 'sitting idle'.
But if you ask the shop owner if you can ''pay to use it'' you get a STERN, ''don't be so stupid, buy your own''...
Don't go overboard, Jon! The Dalton book is dated 1989, and 2001.
There are several videos etc on t'Net about fow benching.
You also asked in another thread about Vizard. I've never met the guy, but his "Theory & Practice" is my bible, and I've got some good improvements for classic Triumphs out of it. The "T&P" is out of print, and can cost hundreds on Amazon, so others must agree with me, but for Triumphs his "Tuning Triumphs over 1300cc" contains all the relevant bits for that marque and is available online: http://auskellian.com/paul/links_files/David%20Viz...
JOhn
There are several videos etc on t'Net about fow benching.
You also asked in another thread about Vizard. I've never met the guy, but his "Theory & Practice" is my bible, and I've got some good improvements for classic Triumphs out of it. The "T&P" is out of print, and can cost hundreds on Amazon, so others must agree with me, but for Triumphs his "Tuning Triumphs over 1300cc" contains all the relevant bits for that marque and is available online: http://auskellian.com/paul/links_files/David%20Viz...
JOhn
Nice replies Guys!
There was a time when I would never let folks “touch my stuff”.
It’s a natural defence mechanism we all have.
But watching David Vizards YT seminars has shown us that “sharing is caring”.
He has suffered a great loss and so have many of us too.
He was seen as a ‘numpty’ by Weslake and others in the sixties too?
Now it appears that Harry Weslake was the numpty after all..
I am more than happy to share my knowledge and expertise (what little I have) lol.
There are hundreds of machine shops, but the ones here in Kent have all but disappeared!
Rover-craft aka Evendens was a leading V8 engine shop.
But diminishing customers and internet trolling all but destroyed it...
I worked there for many years doing minimal V8 work, just head skimming and odd jobs.
So I left for a different life and hobbyist V8 work.
The owner was very accommodating and allowed me to “use the equipment”, as and when.
I never really thought “how big a favour” he was doing me?
He had a crank grinder, balancing machine, specialist V8 boring rig, rod reconditioner that were very rarely used.
When he closed down I was gutted!
So I trolled around the other shops that I knew and dealt with.
When I asked about employment, they mostly laughed.
When I asked if I could use the machines they cried out.
“You must be joking”...
Oh well, as my Mum always says “doesn’t hurt to ask...
There was a time when I would never let folks “touch my stuff”.
It’s a natural defence mechanism we all have.
But watching David Vizards YT seminars has shown us that “sharing is caring”.
He has suffered a great loss and so have many of us too.
He was seen as a ‘numpty’ by Weslake and others in the sixties too?
Now it appears that Harry Weslake was the numpty after all..
I am more than happy to share my knowledge and expertise (what little I have) lol.
There are hundreds of machine shops, but the ones here in Kent have all but disappeared!
Rover-craft aka Evendens was a leading V8 engine shop.
But diminishing customers and internet trolling all but destroyed it...
I worked there for many years doing minimal V8 work, just head skimming and odd jobs.
So I left for a different life and hobbyist V8 work.
The owner was very accommodating and allowed me to “use the equipment”, as and when.
I never really thought “how big a favour” he was doing me?
He had a crank grinder, balancing machine, specialist V8 boring rig, rod reconditioner that were very rarely used.
When he closed down I was gutted!
So I trolled around the other shops that I knew and dealt with.
When I asked about employment, they mostly laughed.
When I asked if I could use the machines they cried out.
“You must be joking”...
Oh well, as my Mum always says “doesn’t hurt to ask...
Edited by Gtxxjon on Friday 28th January 10:00
I Remember back in the 80’s, me and a mate had Dodge Chargers R/T’s (68-69).
(He still has his and I sold mine cheap, More fool me)
We parked them on the street as we had no gargaging
We worked on them with folks laughing and ridiculing us constantly.
Then the infamous “Christine” movie came out and it was fantastic!
But the thing I liked the most was ‘Darnell’s DIY garaging’...
If only we had that here in the UK lol...
Food for thought?
David Vizard seminars sound fantastic, anyone been yet?
(He still has his and I sold mine cheap, More fool me)
We parked them on the street as we had no gargaging
We worked on them with folks laughing and ridiculing us constantly.
Then the infamous “Christine” movie came out and it was fantastic!
But the thing I liked the most was ‘Darnell’s DIY garaging’...
If only we had that here in the UK lol...
Food for thought?
David Vizard seminars sound fantastic, anyone been yet?
Edited by Gtxxjon on Friday 28th January 10:15
Gtxxjon said:
But the thing I liked the most was ‘Darnell’s DIY garaging’...
I've seen a few places try it...they all failed. It is not a good model these days, and people always want something for free.. even the use of a flowbench ?But then if they break it, or have an accident on the premises it's a total s
tshow for the owners.This is real life, there is no Utopia.
That's a real shame, as the petrol engine dies out then EV will be King.
There will be no need for machine shops, flow benches and engine builders etc...
But until that happens we can 'share the love' and hopefully all 'get along'?
Folks who 'use and abuse' other possessions are going to hell, where there are no 'flow benches' just flames lol...
To all those who have a 'flow bench' and are not helping their fellow engine builders, please 'Go with the flow’...lol
There will be no need for machine shops, flow benches and engine builders etc...
But until that happens we can 'share the love' and hopefully all 'get along'?
Folks who 'use and abuse' other possessions are going to hell, where there are no 'flow benches' just flames lol...
To all those who have a 'flow bench' and are not helping their fellow engine builders, please 'Go with the flow’...lol
Edited by Gtxxjon on Thursday 27th January 16:14
IF...IF the EV does take over, which is still very un certain, yes things will change.
However the ICE will still be around in most of our lifetimes.
EV's have a long way to go, battery technology is not where it needs to be, the grid infrastructure is not where it needs to be, and they still have no real way of dealing with a stload of batteries at end of life.
Really though, if EV's are so great, they should be pushed to public transport first, haulage, emergency service vehicles...ie, government paid stuff. The general public should not be forced to footing the bill.
However the ICE will still be around in most of our lifetimes.
EV's have a long way to go, battery technology is not where it needs to be, the grid infrastructure is not where it needs to be, and they still have no real way of dealing with a s
tload of batteries at end of life.Really though, if EV's are so great, they should be pushed to public transport first, haulage, emergency service vehicles...ie, government paid stuff. The general public should not be forced to footing the bill.
I've had one for years, but it doesn't get used much these days. Mainly because I tend to specialise in one or two engines, so once the development work is done on the bench it isn't needed anymore. But also modern stuff is good straight out the box, even with the Duratec which is about 20yrs old now there is very little you can do in reshaping a port to make it better. It's a case of putting bigger valves in and maybe opening the min CSA to match, everything else is perfect already.
Nice replies Guys!
As we know most heads of any era have been developed ‘to the max’.
My love is recreating the past with 50 year old iron heads lol...
Mostly Mopar, but every head is slightly different.
Folks that have benches ‘and the time’ to do YT vids are truly wonderful, but.
I have some heads that are unique and want to see how good or bad they really are?
I also want to compare some pre ported heads to see “who did the best job”...
Most folks say you can get 300cfm from a 1968 to 1978 Mopar iron head.
I just want to compare ‘head to head’ not ‘bench to bench’...
There seems to be a general migration of skills ‘to the North’.
I see less and less machine shops in the South and what are here are not V8 orientated.
What is the price of a good bench, no one seems to know in the UK?
There are several DIY kits on the market for around £1000 with shipping.
Has anyone bought one from the States?
Thanx for any info from John
As we know most heads of any era have been developed ‘to the max’.
My love is recreating the past with 50 year old iron heads lol...
Mostly Mopar, but every head is slightly different.
Folks that have benches ‘and the time’ to do YT vids are truly wonderful, but.
I have some heads that are unique and want to see how good or bad they really are?
I also want to compare some pre ported heads to see “who did the best job”...
Most folks say you can get 300cfm from a 1968 to 1978 Mopar iron head.
I just want to compare ‘head to head’ not ‘bench to bench’...
There seems to be a general migration of skills ‘to the North’.
I see less and less machine shops in the South and what are here are not V8 orientated.
What is the price of a good bench, no one seems to know in the UK?
There are several DIY kits on the market for around £1000 with shipping.
Has anyone bought one from the States?
Thanx for any info from John
Edited by Gtxxjon on Friday 28th January 10:14
Rob Loaring of ICE has done wonderful things with the ICE of Mopar.
When I bought my 452ci race engine it was a ex ICE marvel.
But when one of the highly developed “raised port” heads cracked it was a disaster.
So I contacted Rob and asked if he do another for me?
He was very polite and said “that was a different era and the cost of doing another is way too expensive”...
Hmmm, nice reply and not very helpful as I can’t run with one modded head and one stock lol.
So with Drexel in hand and many many hours of fettling and cursing, I made a copy...
Did it work, I think so?
Didn’t run a 9.90 but managed a 10.40, close but not a Nine!!!
If I had a flow-bench and some better idea of the intricacies of raised ports then I wouldn’t still be wondering twenty years later “if only” lol...
When I bought my 452ci race engine it was a ex ICE marvel.
But when one of the highly developed “raised port” heads cracked it was a disaster.
So I contacted Rob and asked if he do another for me?
He was very polite and said “that was a different era and the cost of doing another is way too expensive”...
Hmmm, nice reply and not very helpful as I can’t run with one modded head and one stock lol.
So with Drexel in hand and many many hours of fettling and cursing, I made a copy...
Did it work, I think so?
Didn’t run a 9.90 but managed a 10.40, close but not a Nine!!!
If I had a flow-bench and some better idea of the intricacies of raised ports then I wouldn’t still be wondering twenty years later “if only” lol...
Edited by Gtxxjon on Friday 28th January 10:28
I waited with anticipation for my new flow gas book by John boy Walton and...
I already bought it 20 years ago lol.
My ‘banger racing Naybore’ said it was a bible for 2-litre Fords!
But for Mopar V8’s in the 600hp to 1000hp range, not much use...
Had plenty of offers for Dyno time and Rolling road which is great but.
As a drag racer I know what the car ran before with 600hp.
My need is for flow data on my heads or another aluminium set.
Putting the engine on a Dyno without doing the head work is a pointless exercise.
Why folks don’t want to bolt a head to a flow bench (1/2 hours work) and give some numbers is weird?
There is a very strong market for Rolling road time and Dyno time too.
But when it comes to the simple task of flow benching, nothing...
I have not asked for porting advice or want any porting done, just some flow numbers on pre ported heads...
Can’t believe the cylinder head guys are so protective of their benches?
If I was in direct competition in Formula One, I could understand it...
But I am just a social drag racer and only care about times not racing...
I already bought it 20 years ago lol.
My ‘banger racing Naybore’ said it was a bible for 2-litre Fords!
But for Mopar V8’s in the 600hp to 1000hp range, not much use...
Had plenty of offers for Dyno time and Rolling road which is great but.
As a drag racer I know what the car ran before with 600hp.
My need is for flow data on my heads or another aluminium set.
Putting the engine on a Dyno without doing the head work is a pointless exercise.
Why folks don’t want to bolt a head to a flow bench (1/2 hours work) and give some numbers is weird?
There is a very strong market for Rolling road time and Dyno time too.
But when it comes to the simple task of flow benching, nothing...
I have not asked for porting advice or want any porting done, just some flow numbers on pre ported heads...
Can’t believe the cylinder head guys are so protective of their benches?
If I was in direct competition in Formula One, I could understand it...
But I am just a social drag racer and only care about times not racing...
Edited by Gtxxjon on Saturday 29th January 19:01
It can't be that difficult to make your own flow bench using a reliable vacuum cleaner and trial and error with strategically placed manometers in the inlet tract.After all what you are looking for is a difference in pressure readings in regard to valve lift and porting mods.
Simulate the cylinder volume/bore with some tube bolted or sealed to the head (chamber) and the vacuum sealed to the tube pulling from the bottom.
Of course most vacuum cleaners will be well overpowered for such an exercise so a calibrated bleed off orifice will be required to reduce the vacuum rate to prevent emptying of the manometer.
I might be totally wrong on this and am open to criticism but it seems logical to me unless you are running an F1 team.
Simulate the cylinder volume/bore with some tube bolted or sealed to the head (chamber) and the vacuum sealed to the tube pulling from the bottom.
Of course most vacuum cleaners will be well overpowered for such an exercise so a calibrated bleed off orifice will be required to reduce the vacuum rate to prevent emptying of the manometer.
I might be totally wrong on this and am open to criticism but it seems logical to me unless you are running an F1 team.
Nice reply Garage-window!
There are many ways to build a budget bench to compare flow rates at a given valve height.
That would work very well with the heads I have that are already ported by the 'great and the good'!
But I have no way of knowing which ones are the best out of the many sets I have...
Once I know which heads are best 'under the curve' and best overall then I can 'just copy them' lol...
Most porting is done by eye and feel for the head in question.
Where they can go wrong is actually taking 'too much' from a specific area that may hurt the overall flow?
That's all well and good with stock iron heads with a known maximum flow of say 300 cfm.
Some of the heads I need to check can be 400cfm plus...
There are many ways to build a budget bench to compare flow rates at a given valve height.
That would work very well with the heads I have that are already ported by the 'great and the good'!
But I have no way of knowing which ones are the best out of the many sets I have...
Once I know which heads are best 'under the curve' and best overall then I can 'just copy them' lol...
Most porting is done by eye and feel for the head in question.
Where they can go wrong is actually taking 'too much' from a specific area that may hurt the overall flow?
That's all well and good with stock iron heads with a known maximum flow of say 300 cfm.
Some of the heads I need to check can be 400cfm plus...
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