Learn about engines
Discussion
Hi,
So I want to learn hands on how an ICE works as a new project. During lockdown I learned to “spanner” on an old shed I bought (mostly suspension).
I’ve been reading old posts where similar questions have been asked before and buying old lawnmower or motorbike engines was suggested. I don’t have the space/money to store and take apart/rebuild a car engine, and I don’t know any garage owners who’d let me see what they’re working on so the small engine idea suited the most… however I know nothing about motorbike or lawn mower engines!
Can you recommend a small engine that would as close to a modern-ish car engine that I could look out for? I know it would need to be 4 stroke, and fuel injected (might be hard as I’ve been told it’s only newer engines on bikes that are fuel injected).
Also, can a bike engine be started easily outside of the bike? If I had more space I’d just buy an old bike but this isn’t possible right now (insane housing market preventing me from moving up the ladder).
Any advice welcome… and feel free to tell me I’m wasting my time or barking up the wrong tree.
Thanks.
So I want to learn hands on how an ICE works as a new project. During lockdown I learned to “spanner” on an old shed I bought (mostly suspension).
I’ve been reading old posts where similar questions have been asked before and buying old lawnmower or motorbike engines was suggested. I don’t have the space/money to store and take apart/rebuild a car engine, and I don’t know any garage owners who’d let me see what they’re working on so the small engine idea suited the most… however I know nothing about motorbike or lawn mower engines!
Can you recommend a small engine that would as close to a modern-ish car engine that I could look out for? I know it would need to be 4 stroke, and fuel injected (might be hard as I’ve been told it’s only newer engines on bikes that are fuel injected).
Also, can a bike engine be started easily outside of the bike? If I had more space I’d just buy an old bike but this isn’t possible right now (insane housing market preventing me from moving up the ladder).
Any advice welcome… and feel free to tell me I’m wasting my time or barking up the wrong tree.
Thanks.
not really sure what your actual end goal is ?
Are engines easy to run out of the vehicle ? Yes and no. The more electronics involved, potentially the more difficult, and you say you want fuel injection ? Maybe not the easiest route, especially any "modern" vehicle.
In terms of portability...just buy an old small motorbike. It has an engine, a frame, a fuel tank, all wiring, all in a compact and ready to run form.
To run a car engine outside of the car half safely, would require you building something similar.
But really you'd be wanting an engine that can actually be of some use too.
Or for some bonkers ideas...
https://www.youtube.com/c/Garage54ENG/videos
or some models
https://www.maplin.co.uk/maker-stem/kids-gadgets-e...
Are engines easy to run out of the vehicle ? Yes and no. The more electronics involved, potentially the more difficult, and you say you want fuel injection ? Maybe not the easiest route, especially any "modern" vehicle.
In terms of portability...just buy an old small motorbike. It has an engine, a frame, a fuel tank, all wiring, all in a compact and ready to run form.
To run a car engine outside of the car half safely, would require you building something similar.
But really you'd be wanting an engine that can actually be of some use too.
Or for some bonkers ideas...
https://www.youtube.com/c/Garage54ENG/videos
or some models
https://www.maplin.co.uk/maker-stem/kids-gadgets-e...
The principles of all 4 stroke engines are the same. The valve train differs on modern engines a bit but the same s
t is going on.
If you can build a mini a series engine and set it up then its not a big step to doing the same with a modern beast. All that you have to familiarise yourself with is efi.
t is going on. If you can build a mini a series engine and set it up then its not a big step to doing the same with a modern beast. All that you have to familiarise yourself with is efi.
stevieturbo said:
not really sure what your actual end goal is ?
Are engines easy to run out of the vehicle ? Yes and no. The more electronics involved, potentially the more difficult, and you say you want fuel injection ? Maybe not the easiest route, especially any "modern" vehicle.
In terms of portability...just buy an old small motorbike. It has an engine, a frame, a fuel tank, all wiring, all in a compact and ready to run form.
To run a car engine outside of the car half safely, would require you building something similar.
But really you'd be wanting an engine that can actually be of some use too.
Or for some bonkers ideas...
https://www.youtube.com/c/Garage54ENG/videos
or some models
https://www.maplin.co.uk/maker-stem/kids-gadgets-e...
My end goal is loosely giving me more confidence to attempt to diagnose and repair my cars whenever an issue arises, and because I like taking mechanical stuff apart and trying to get it working again, hopefully in a better state. Are engines easy to run out of the vehicle ? Yes and no. The more electronics involved, potentially the more difficult, and you say you want fuel injection ? Maybe not the easiest route, especially any "modern" vehicle.
In terms of portability...just buy an old small motorbike. It has an engine, a frame, a fuel tank, all wiring, all in a compact and ready to run form.
To run a car engine outside of the car half safely, would require you building something similar.
But really you'd be wanting an engine that can actually be of some use too.
Or for some bonkers ideas...
https://www.youtube.com/c/Garage54ENG/videos
or some models
https://www.maplin.co.uk/maker-stem/kids-gadgets-e...
Buying a whole bike makes much more sense, so I’ll hold off until I’m in a position to get a bigger place.
These videos look fun thanks, will make good watching during lunch breaks…
WelshRich said:
If you don’t have the space, how about signing up for some sort of evening class instead?
Good shout but but there isn’t anything near me… I’m just outside Edinburgh. Edinburgh College do mention automotive classes but they’re are never any being run… and that was the same before covid. Will keep looking. If you've got a shed as a second car, just working on that should be a good, start, and doesn't involve finding much more space.
Or sell that car and buy a different one that needs engine work as a learning project.
Unfortunately, if you have no working space, not even a garden shed, you're very limited in what you can do, assuming doing stuff on the kitchen table is off limits.
Or sell that car and buy a different one that needs engine work as a learning project.
Unfortunately, if you have no working space, not even a garden shed, you're very limited in what you can do, assuming doing stuff on the kitchen table is off limits.
InitialDave said:
If you've got a shed as a second car, just working on that should be a good, start, and doesn't involve finding much more space.
Or sell that car and buy a different one that needs engine work as a learning project.
Unfortunately, if you have no working space, not even a garden shed, you're very limited in what you can do, assuming doing stuff on the kitchen table is off limits.
Thanks, I do have a garden shed but no off street parking which is a bit of a pain. As you say I’ll keep working on this, unfortunately the clutch has gone on the shed and as it’s a derv it’s nearly 1k to replace. If I had my own space and garage I’d have attempted it myself over the course of a week or 2 but have to get a garage to do it. Or sell that car and buy a different one that needs engine work as a learning project.
Unfortunately, if you have no working space, not even a garden shed, you're very limited in what you can do, assuming doing stuff on the kitchen table is off limits.
All other jobs are done on the car so it makes sense for me to put a new clutch on it rather than buy another used car, with the way the 2nd hand market is just now.
Those haynes 'build your own' engine models will give you a good idea of physically how an engine works (it's really very simple and they basically all fundamentally work the same way) if you learn better having something in your hands. Other than the fact there's no torque specs or measuring etc. to do the physical process will be the same, albeit smaller.
Shameless plug, my readers cars thread I've built an engine from a bare block and have taken A LOT of pictures and explained how / what I'm doing and why, but realistically you'll get far more informative and better quality stuff on youtube etc.
Hold(en) My Beer
I started taking it apart around September 2020, so actual constructive posts aren't probably until January time
Realistically I think until you actually do it, you won't have the confidence that one gets from experience, and indeed without space that it a little awkward to gain. You've got the right idea with the shed, and the more stuff you do yourself, the more familiar it'll become and the better you'll be at diagnosing what things are or what problems are etc.
Shameless plug, my readers cars thread I've built an engine from a bare block and have taken A LOT of pictures and explained how / what I'm doing and why, but realistically you'll get far more informative and better quality stuff on youtube etc.
Hold(en) My BeerI started taking it apart around September 2020, so actual constructive posts aren't probably until January time
Realistically I think until you actually do it, you won't have the confidence that one gets from experience, and indeed without space that it a little awkward to gain. You've got the right idea with the shed, and the more stuff you do yourself, the more familiar it'll become and the better you'll be at diagnosing what things are or what problems are etc.
SturdyHSV said:
Those haynes 'build your own' engine models will give you a good idea of physically how an engine works (it's really very simple and they basically all fundamentally work the same way) if you learn better having something in your hands. Other than the fact there's no torque specs or measuring etc. to do the physical process will be the same, albeit smaller.
Shameless plug, my readers cars thread I've built an engine from a bare block and have taken A LOT of pictures and explained how / what I'm doing and why, but realistically you'll get far more informative and better quality stuff on youtube etc.
Hold(en) My Beer
I started taking it apart around September 2020, so actual constructive posts aren't probably until January time
Realistically I think until you actually do it, you won't have the confidence that one gets from experience, and indeed without space that it a little awkward to gain. You've got the right idea with the shed, and the more stuff you do yourself, the more familiar it'll become and the better you'll be at diagnosing what things are or what problems are etc.
I’m going to ask for one of these ‘Build your own’ kits for Xmas from the Mrs, they look fun.Shameless plug, my readers cars thread I've built an engine from a bare block and have taken A LOT of pictures and explained how / what I'm doing and why, but realistically you'll get far more informative and better quality stuff on youtube etc.
Hold(en) My BeerI started taking it apart around September 2020, so actual constructive posts aren't probably until January time
Realistically I think until you actually do it, you won't have the confidence that one gets from experience, and indeed without space that it a little awkward to gain. You've got the right idea with the shed, and the more stuff you do yourself, the more familiar it'll become and the better you'll be at diagnosing what things are or what problems are etc.
Love the sound of the Holden V8, that’s the engine in the VXR8 yeah?
Agree on the space issue, once I at least have a garage I’ll have somewhere I can tinker and build my confidence.
Boosted LS1 said:
OP, a 2 stroke motorbike is an excellent place to start especially if it's street legal.
I’m going to ring around my local scrappies and see if I can pick on up.A single cylinder 4 stroke bike engine would also be a good start for learning, as the principles are identical to most modern (petrol) car engines, the only difference being that the older engines are not generally fuel injected.
The older (80's) Honda engines are quite easy to work on.
The older (80's) Honda engines are quite easy to work on.
OP, as you have a shed, my suggestion is you get a Fiat FIRE engine from a scrapyard etc, probably a 1.2 8v. Pandas, Puntos, 500s, Cinquecentos and Seicentos etc, they put them on loads of stuff.
They're small, light, cheap and common. They've been around since the 80s, but are still in use and are a simple still-current engine to learn to work on yourself in a shed on a bench or cheap engine stand.
If it's car engines you want to learn about, they're a good, very generic example of a 4 cylinder.
They're small, light, cheap and common. They've been around since the 80s, but are still in use and are a simple still-current engine to learn to work on yourself in a shed on a bench or cheap engine stand.
If it's car engines you want to learn about, they're a good, very generic example of a 4 cylinder.
InitialDave said:
OP, as you have a shed, my suggestion is you get a Fiat FIRE engine from a scrapyard etc, probably a 1.2 8v. Pandas, Puntos, 500s, Cinquecentos and Seicentos etc, they put them on loads of stuff.
They're small, light, cheap and common. They've been around since the 80s, but are still in use and are a simple still-current engine to learn to work on yourself in a shed on a bench or cheap engine stand.
If it's car engines you want to learn about, they're a good, very generic example of a 4 cylinder.
This looks like a good suggestion, there’s a few of these on eBay for example that won’t break the bank. Out of curiosity, would you have any idea roughly how much these weigh? They're small, light, cheap and common. They've been around since the 80s, but are still in use and are a simple still-current engine to learn to work on yourself in a shed on a bench or cheap engine stand.
If it's car engines you want to learn about, they're a good, very generic example of a 4 cylinder.
bayzoo said:
My end goal is loosely giving me more confidence to attempt to diagnose and repair my cars whenever an issue arises, and because I like taking mechanical stuff apart and trying to get it working again, hopefully in a better state.
Buying a whole bike makes much more sense, so I’ll hold off until I’m in a position to get a bigger place.
These videos look fun thanks, will make good watching during lunch breaks…
One issue is hybrids and EV and U.K. ban of sale of any ICE from 2030. Which will mean sooner or later the ability to do this isn’t viable. Buying a whole bike makes much more sense, so I’ll hold off until I’m in a position to get a bigger place.
These videos look fun thanks, will make good watching during lunch breaks…
Actually it’s a big question to all motor mechanics the volume of cars with ICE is declining. Would you advise say a 15yo to train up to be a car mechanic? If you do then given the ban is 2030 most if not all car makers will have moved to EV some time if not years before that point.
As such there is now known obsolete career path. Worth thinking.
bayzoo said:
This looks like a good suggestion, there’s a few of these on eBay for example that won’t break the bank. Out of curiosity, would you have any idea roughly how much these weigh?
They're pretty light as engines go, does depend whether they have the manifolds and ancillaries etc still attached.Not actually weighed one but my guesstimate would be 70kg all in.
InitialDave said:
They're pretty light as engines go, does depend whether they have the manifolds and ancillaries etc still attached.
Not actually weighed one but my guesstimate would be 70kg all in.
A lot lighter then than my 2.2 lump from my Civic shed. I've done a quick search online and it would probably make sense to just buy a whole car, then it has a 'purpose' as stevieturbo points out. Not actually weighed one but my guesstimate would be 70kg all in.
Welshbeef does make a valid point, and my plans might seem futile, but I've always been fascinated by mechanics and mechanical engineering but for many reasons I've never gone down that career path. Cars are the closest thing that is mechanical to me, and the most obtainable. 8 years is still a while away yet, and I'd like to think I'd have a desirable ICE car to maintain and enjoy in he summer months when EV's are the norm. Or maybe not if the taxes and fuel costs become too much...
bayzoo said:
My end goal is loosely giving me more confidence to attempt to diagnose and repair my cars whenever an issue arises
It seems to me that most of the problems you're likely to encounter will be related to bodywork, suspension, transmission, brakes, electrics, plumbing, engine management systems and so on rather than the simple mechanical components in the engine.But those simple mechanical components are the only thing that will be common between these engines you're discussing, and what you'll find in your road car.
I suggest that actually buying a car that needs ongoing maintenance and providing that yourself would be more useful and more rewarding than stripping down random engines.
If you're determined that you want to strip something down right now, consider getting yourself an IC powered radio control buggy or something along those lines. It will be quick and easy to strip and reassemble the engine and about thirty seconds to fully understand how the guts of it when it's apart. And afterwards you still have something useful.
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