Car engine from V4 bike engine
Discussion
Take it easy on me, I'm no mechanic or engine designer!
As per title really, thinking something similar to the various companies that make V8s from Hayabusa engines, but hopefully a lot simpler.
Plan would be to keep the main internal parts and geometry (as much as possible anyway) plus the complete head assemblies. Then machine main block and cylinders from solid, to eventually bolt onto a Hewland JFR (or similar)
I'm a machinist with my own small company, so measuring everything up, modelling and making the various parts shouldn't be a problem, but I am no engine designer!
Suggestions as to why this absolutely wouldn't work are much appreciated!!!
Current favourite is Aprilia RSV4 but definitely open to suggestions if any others would be more suited.
Main source of info for this engine so far has been https://www.cycleworld.com/2012/07/17/tech-analysi...
Couple of issues I can see so far:
Would have to make a dry sump setup (this would be for a single seater so dry sump essential), which look surprisingly simple (to copy!) but once again I'm no engine designer and I know it's more complicated than it looks!
According to the article, the oil pump has a high pressure and a high speed side which sounds important! but could maybe use it for the pressure pump and have a separate more conventional scavenge pump? (not sure if this is even feasible! I think I've read other engines can use this setup?)
Not sure if it's possible convert the aprilia crank into a car style one? Just add a flywheel? It's incredibly small and simple compared to most cranks!
Plus a million other questions!
Please stop me because I'm going to start buying stuff soon!
edit: someone doing similar, with both inline 4 and V8 from hayabusa, another great source of info for all this stuff! https://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm
As per title really, thinking something similar to the various companies that make V8s from Hayabusa engines, but hopefully a lot simpler.
Plan would be to keep the main internal parts and geometry (as much as possible anyway) plus the complete head assemblies. Then machine main block and cylinders from solid, to eventually bolt onto a Hewland JFR (or similar)
I'm a machinist with my own small company, so measuring everything up, modelling and making the various parts shouldn't be a problem, but I am no engine designer!
Suggestions as to why this absolutely wouldn't work are much appreciated!!!
Current favourite is Aprilia RSV4 but definitely open to suggestions if any others would be more suited.
Main source of info for this engine so far has been https://www.cycleworld.com/2012/07/17/tech-analysi...
Couple of issues I can see so far:
Would have to make a dry sump setup (this would be for a single seater so dry sump essential), which look surprisingly simple (to copy!) but once again I'm no engine designer and I know it's more complicated than it looks!
According to the article, the oil pump has a high pressure and a high speed side which sounds important! but could maybe use it for the pressure pump and have a separate more conventional scavenge pump? (not sure if this is even feasible! I think I've read other engines can use this setup?)
Not sure if it's possible convert the aprilia crank into a car style one? Just add a flywheel? It's incredibly small and simple compared to most cranks!
Plus a million other questions!
Please stop me because I'm going to start buying stuff soon!
edit: someone doing similar, with both inline 4 and V8 from hayabusa, another great source of info for all this stuff! https://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm
Edited by DRCAGE on Saturday 25th September 16:52
Why would you want to machine your own block from solid? It would be a hugely difficult task and also pointless. The whole point of these conversions is that you take a known engine and just use it in a different application.
If you want to make your own engine from scratch as an engineering challenge then that's a different matter but it's not remotely necessary or sensible as a way to implement an engine transplant.
If you want to make your own engine from scratch as an engineering challenge then that's a different matter but it's not remotely necessary or sensible as a way to implement an engine transplant.
Seriously, some things are better left to the experts, especially complex engineering tasks.
amongst other issues I anticipate something based around bike engines might be distinctly lacking in torque. Bike are light things with revvy engines; cars are heavy things with slower engines.
And if your engine is low torque 12,000 rpm you'll need some "interesting" gear ratios for car use. Probably so extreme that nothing will fit properly.
amongst other issues I anticipate something based around bike engines might be distinctly lacking in torque. Bike are light things with revvy engines; cars are heavy things with slower engines.
And if your engine is low torque 12,000 rpm you'll need some "interesting" gear ratios for car use. Probably so extreme that nothing will fit properly.
I know this sounds a bit Meh, but I reckon one of the Honda Goldwing flat sixes would be an interesting unit to explore, shaft drive, so no chain conversions needed, low profile engine, tuned for low/midrange torque, they only rev to 6k-ish they even have a reverse, also I bet there's more power to be had, especially if supercharged..
voram said:
Seriously, some things are better left to the experts, especially complex engineering tasks.
amongst other issues I anticipate something based around bike engines might be distinctly lacking in torque. Bike are light things with revvy engines; cars are heavy things with slower engines.
And if your engine is low torque 12,000 rpm you'll need some "interesting" gear ratios for car use. Probably so extreme that nothing will fit properly.
I do consider myself an expert in certain complex engineering tasks amongst other issues I anticipate something based around bike engines might be distinctly lacking in torque. Bike are light things with revvy engines; cars are heavy things with slower engines.
And if your engine is low torque 12,000 rpm you'll need some "interesting" gear ratios for car use. Probably so extreme that nothing will fit properly.
This is for a single seater so lack of torque shouldn't be an issue, plenty of similar stuff out there, just I don't think anyone has done it with a V4 before and was hoping to find out why!
23.7 said:
Sounds like you need to have a conversation with Allen Millyard.
Seems like I do! Never heard of him so many thanks, looks like he does some fancy work!tdm34 said:
Two Honda ST1300 Pan European engines would make a rather glorious V8
Hopefully what I plan to do is a lot easier than the guys making V engines out of 2 inline 4's etc, incredible engineering!Longitudinal V4 has been done in single seaters historically.
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/DbVobn7H[/url]
I know it is interesting to think about these things but… I don’t see the benefit of a V4 in a modern single seater. You aren’t going to be able to stress it, It is shorter but it’s wider so higher frontal area, wider and more open chassis structure..?
Unless you are trying to make an incredibly short car similar to an old F500cc…
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/DbVobn7H[/url]I know it is interesting to think about these things but… I don’t see the benefit of a V4 in a modern single seater. You aren’t going to be able to stress it, It is shorter but it’s wider so higher frontal area, wider and more open chassis structure..?
Unless you are trying to make an incredibly short car similar to an old F500cc…
Edited by HustleRussell on Saturday 25th September 18:36
Really....it seems a very expensive and pointless route to whatever the end goal actually is.
If you're using the engine...all good and well, use it as is.
Is a car gearbox really the most efficient option for such an engine ? If it's a small lightweight car, why not do what most do, and just use the engine and box from the bike ?
If you must use the car style transaxle, use the original V4 engine and mate it to the box with suitable adaptor and flywheel etc....and clutch ?
Building a custom block, is just pointless in terms of work and money.
If you're using the engine...all good and well, use it as is.
Is a car gearbox really the most efficient option for such an engine ? If it's a small lightweight car, why not do what most do, and just use the engine and box from the bike ?
If you must use the car style transaxle, use the original V4 engine and mate it to the box with suitable adaptor and flywheel etc....and clutch ?
Building a custom block, is just pointless in terms of work and money.
Krikkit said:
Not to put too much of a downer on it, but what does the RPE V8 cost? Engineering your own will surely be multiples more expensive?
Not that it's not an interesting project mind.
Hopefully this idea would be a lot simpler, those guys create a V8 from two inline 4's, here I would just be copying the original V4 layoutNot that it's not an interesting project mind.
DRCAGE said:
Hopefully this idea would be a lot simpler, those guys create a V8 from two inline 4's, here I would just be copying the original V4 layout
2x I4s are much simpler - you've already got a reliable, production head and set of barrels to drop into the case, then you can choose your bank angle to suit your crank etc. Even then there's a lot of design needed.Doing it by rigging four V4-heads is the same amount of work again.
Edit: That video says it all... Complicated.
tdm34 said:
I know this sounds a bit Meh, but I reckon one of the Honda Goldwing flat sixes would be an interesting unit to explore, shaft drive, so no chain conversions needed, low profile engine, tuned for low/midrange torque, they only rev to 6k-ish they even have a reverse, also I bet there's more power to be had, especially if supercharged..
There's a guy on RetroRides putting on of these in an Imp. Looks like the main issue is that the engine rotates anti-clockwise so finding a suitable gearbox is an issue, depending on application.lufbramatt said:
There's a guy on RetroRides putting on of these in an Imp. Looks like the main issue is that the engine rotates anti-clockwise so finding a suitable gearbox is an issue, depending on application.
I know of someone who managed to swap a Honda K20 to rotate in reverse for an engine swap, how the hell they did it I don't know - I'm assuming camshafts and oil pump at the minimum.tdm34 said:
I know this sounds a bit Meh, but I reckon one of the Honda Goldwing flat sixes would be an interesting unit to explore, shaft drive, so no chain conversions needed, low profile engine, tuned for low/midrange torque, they only rev to 6k-ish they even have a reverse, also I bet there's more power to be had, especially if supercharged..
I pondered putting a cbx1050 lump in my blackbird powered westy after the gearbox went pop. Couldn't find one for the right money sadly. The noise they make when wrung out. What a noise!
https://youtu.be/SKa0hrq6X-c
Can't believe it's been a year since I started this thread! 
Been messing around with the idea in spare time and even bought a few bargain bits and bobs as they've appeared. Also managed to do some basic measuring and modelling. The red heads are very basically modelled so please ignore them!
The general idea has been to copy the various billet blocks and dry sump pans/setups that are available for different engines, while also having the required dimensions to suit the Aprilia internals.
Apologies for all the random colours! I find it easier to help separate everything when drawing. This is still in the crazy idea stage and nothing is anywhere near final or finished, so don't judge too harshly! Also, engines have never really been my thing and I've only ever known the basics, so a lot of this is new to me. My trade is CNC machining, if I ever did get the design right then I could make the various parts quite easily.
The internals are also mostly modelled (oil feed lines, coolant circuit etc)
The plan is to use standard internal parts (crank, rods, pistons) and cylinder heads. Apart from (hopefully) simple modifications to the ends of the crank to allow for flywheel mounting and drive systems.
A big change the more eagled eyed of you may have noticed is that the V angle is currently 90 degrees and not 65 as standard, this is mainly so I can lose the balance shaft and also get the engine as low as possible. Slowly getting my brain around the basics of making such a change but still lots more research needed!
Would also love to go for gear driven cams (chains as standard) which is another brain teaser to say the least!
Some more pics showing some of the main parts and internals.
More to follow but it's getting late
Been messing around with the idea in spare time and even bought a few bargain bits and bobs as they've appeared. Also managed to do some basic measuring and modelling. The red heads are very basically modelled so please ignore them!
The general idea has been to copy the various billet blocks and dry sump pans/setups that are available for different engines, while also having the required dimensions to suit the Aprilia internals.
Apologies for all the random colours! I find it easier to help separate everything when drawing. This is still in the crazy idea stage and nothing is anywhere near final or finished, so don't judge too harshly! Also, engines have never really been my thing and I've only ever known the basics, so a lot of this is new to me. My trade is CNC machining, if I ever did get the design right then I could make the various parts quite easily.
The internals are also mostly modelled (oil feed lines, coolant circuit etc)
The plan is to use standard internal parts (crank, rods, pistons) and cylinder heads. Apart from (hopefully) simple modifications to the ends of the crank to allow for flywheel mounting and drive systems.
A big change the more eagled eyed of you may have noticed is that the V angle is currently 90 degrees and not 65 as standard, this is mainly so I can lose the balance shaft and also get the engine as low as possible. Slowly getting my brain around the basics of making such a change but still lots more research needed!
Would also love to go for gear driven cams (chains as standard) which is another brain teaser to say the least!
Some more pics showing some of the main parts and internals.
More to follow but it's getting late
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