Turbocharger project
Discussion
I wish to tap into the huge pool of knowledge out there and get some ideas.
I have found myself with a large amount of time on my hands and am considering a Project. I am looking at turbocharging a westfield or caterham but have many options need some help to get started.
Firstly which engine would be the best starting point. zetec, pinto, vauxhall 16v etc.
Then single or multiple throttle bodies and which make?
Engine management MBE, Emerald etc.
all suggestions would be appreciated. I have so many variables and money is almost no object but i dont want to spend anything that i dont need to. Afterall this is a project to keep me occupied for a few months not a way to spend money.
I have found myself with a large amount of time on my hands and am considering a Project. I am looking at turbocharging a westfield or caterham but have many options need some help to get started.
Firstly which engine would be the best starting point. zetec, pinto, vauxhall 16v etc.
Then single or multiple throttle bodies and which make?
Engine management MBE, Emerald etc.
all suggestions would be appreciated. I have so many variables and money is almost no object but i dont want to spend anything that i dont need to. Afterall this is a project to keep me occupied for a few months not a way to spend money.
Looks like a good idea to me.
I have previous experience of ze-tecs. What about the induction side of things.
Are there pros and cons to multiple or single throttle boddies.
Its been a long time since ive played with a turbo and then it was on a very tight budget whilst at college. It was also a renault 5 with carb not injection. so this is also going to be a learn as i go affair.
Any info at this stage is greatfully accepted.
I have previous experience of ze-tecs. What about the induction side of things.
Are there pros and cons to multiple or single throttle boddies.
Its been a long time since ive played with a turbo and then it was on a very tight budget whilst at college. It was also a renault 5 with carb not injection. so this is also going to be a learn as i go affair.
Any info at this stage is greatfully accepted.
I'd just use the standard throttle butterfly and inlet manifold unless your power target was considerably inexcess of 200bhp. Even then your money may be better spent elsewhere. Don't forget if you go port throttles you've also got to sort out a suitable plenum to feed them and you've increased your failiure points on the inlet side by 4.
Best Regards
Matt
Best Regards
Matt
Bloke near me hillclimbs a turbo Westerham and is fitting a blower instead, when it comes on boost, it upsets it on corners which is the point of a Westerham.
I would look at what superchargers are available. A BMW mini blower will blow a 1.6. I'd use a crossflow, a decompression plate of about 5mm, sucking through a 2" SU, need some longer pushrods. Pintos are too heavy, if you want to use a pinto, RV8's are lighter, then you get 2X Bini blowers (2x£100 ebay) and blow that mofo. Try usedsuperchargers.com, personally I'd have a look on ebay for a mazda millenia blower, same adiabatic efficiency as a turbo (IRO-80%) will blow up to 35Psi and is sized right, also costs very little. They are quite big but a crossflow with one of those would rule.
I would look at what superchargers are available. A BMW mini blower will blow a 1.6. I'd use a crossflow, a decompression plate of about 5mm, sucking through a 2" SU, need some longer pushrods. Pintos are too heavy, if you want to use a pinto, RV8's are lighter, then you get 2X Bini blowers (2x£100 ebay) and blow that mofo. Try usedsuperchargers.com, personally I'd have a look on ebay for a mazda millenia blower, same adiabatic efficiency as a turbo (IRO-80%) will blow up to 35Psi and is sized right, also costs very little. They are quite big but a crossflow with one of those would rule.
The Eaton (Mini) blower won't run 'wet' - ie suckthrough - petrol attacks the seals in the bearings.
There are also weight issues with a blower that you don't get with a turbo - both the unit itself and the relatively heavy hardware you need to mount it on.
Could you not track down a suitable Sierra Cosworth/Rover 620 Turbo/Calibra Turbo set-up and transplant?
Ought to be cheaper - and more reliable - to refurbish and upgrade rather than engineering an installation from scratch?
I've seen a few turbocharged Seven-type cars hillclimbing, none as quick as the best 2.0 n/a cars; might be different on the road though.
There are also weight issues with a blower that you don't get with a turbo - both the unit itself and the relatively heavy hardware you need to mount it on.
Could you not track down a suitable Sierra Cosworth/Rover 620 Turbo/Calibra Turbo set-up and transplant?
Ought to be cheaper - and more reliable - to refurbish and upgrade rather than engineering an installation from scratch?
I've seen a few turbocharged Seven-type cars hillclimbing, none as quick as the best 2.0 n/a cars; might be different on the road though.
Nick_F said:
The Eaton (Mini) blower won't run 'wet' - ie suckthrough - petrol attacks the seals in the bearings.
Is that so? There are B and A series kits for the Bini blower which are suck through. How quick do the seals go? Mines a blow through (but at the minute it's blown up!). I'm all ears.
It's hearsay from a guy called Nigel Jenkins who runs an operation called 'UK Blowers', mostly working on Rods and drag cars.
It may be that some models are more resilient than others depending on the design of bearing used - or that there are ways of keeping the fuel away from the bearings, but his advice was that sooner or later the bearing seals will go.
Having failed to find a Vortech blower for sensible money for my Scimitar project I've reviewed my goals and am switching to an Eaton M90 - hence my interest.
It may be that some models are more resilient than others depending on the design of bearing used - or that there are ways of keeping the fuel away from the bearings, but his advice was that sooner or later the bearing seals will go.
Having failed to find a Vortech blower for sensible money for my Scimitar project I've reviewed my goals and am switching to an Eaton M90 - hence my interest.
Sorry to go a bit away from the thread.
I don't like Rootes blowers, I only have one because it was £100. IIRC, the 4th generation rootes (eaton) is about 64% efficient at 0.5 Bar which is crap, it will do but a screw blower would be loads better. The Mazda Millenia one has a litre pass they can handle being spun fast and it would blow pretty much anything. You could use a lot more boost than an Eaton before it started detonating.
If you're on a budget you have a choice between BMW mini blowers, Mazda Millenia blowers and Aisin ones from Toyotas (750cc and 1L pass models)-Crappy straight lobes but compact design.
Anyway, if anyone is interested in how to modify heads/cams for blown (SC) engines. Give me a shout, I've got some interesting ideas.
I don't like Rootes blowers, I only have one because it was £100. IIRC, the 4th generation rootes (eaton) is about 64% efficient at 0.5 Bar which is crap, it will do but a screw blower would be loads better. The Mazda Millenia one has a litre pass they can handle being spun fast and it would blow pretty much anything. You could use a lot more boost than an Eaton before it started detonating.
If you're on a budget you have a choice between BMW mini blowers, Mazda Millenia blowers and Aisin ones from Toyotas (750cc and 1L pass models)-Crappy straight lobes but compact design.
Anyway, if anyone is interested in how to modify heads/cams for blown (SC) engines. Give me a shout, I've got some interesting ideas.
I have thought of all sorts of ways to get power. High power normally aspirated, Big cubes ie Rover V8 or turbocharging.
Ive not done a turbo car from scratch before hence my interest. but i just need some ideas and the route to go down.
All the above have been interested and giving food for thought
Ive not done a turbo car from scratch before hence my interest. but i just need some ideas and the route to go down.
All the above have been interested and giving food for thought
Love machine,
I am very interested in your ideas about blowing and modifications to suit! I am just finishing cleaning up the chassis on my Eagle SS, no smirking I like it! :0, and will soon move onto the engine. I have been given an adaptor plate to fit a Rover 2.7 v6 to the VW Beetle gearbox and want to try and "improve" the Rover/Honda lump as best as possible before fitting it. I have bought a few books on the subject of tuning and porting but have not yet really read into it. The idea of a supercharger, albeit at relitivly low boost, is one that apealls but the complexity is currently putting me off! Sorry to "hijack" the thread but just thought I xhould ask when the opertunity arose.
Jon
I am very interested in your ideas about blowing and modifications to suit! I am just finishing cleaning up the chassis on my Eagle SS, no smirking I like it! :0, and will soon move onto the engine. I have been given an adaptor plate to fit a Rover 2.7 v6 to the VW Beetle gearbox and want to try and "improve" the Rover/Honda lump as best as possible before fitting it. I have bought a few books on the subject of tuning and porting but have not yet really read into it. The idea of a supercharger, albeit at relitivly low boost, is one that apealls but the complexity is currently putting me off! Sorry to "hijack" the thread but just thought I xhould ask when the opertunity arose.
Jon
Bugger, I've just written a massive essay and managed to delete all of it by knocking the keyboard.
You need David Vizards mucking about with cylinder heads bible.
Then you need "Automotive supercharging and turbocharging manual" John D Humphries, Haynes, ISBN 0-85429-880-0 which is the best FI book I've read and I've read a lot of them. It might be out of print.
After having read them, you'll be in a better position to figure your plan of attack.
It depends whether your plan of attack is to scoop out the chambers a bit and run a low boost, or something a bit more exciting. There is very little literature on cams for supercharged engines but there are a few rules of thumb. They're only really relevant if you're going to run a bit more than a bit boost! The exhaust part of the equation is the most important.
What is the engine spec? particularly ports/valves/cam timing/compression ratio/operating revs/ more importantly what are you trying to achieve?
My brief was to get the most out of the engine using 15PSI boost using all the tricks and have something which holds together.
I think the balance between just assisting the engine with a blower and a full-on engine is as follows.
Home spun modded cylinder head(s), reprofiled cam(s) and moderate boost. Home spun electronic programmable ignition. You'll have to get it set up properly which will either involve lots of runs up a big hill with a passenger on a laptop or at a RR. Run it all past me as I'm a right enthusiast.
You need David Vizards mucking about with cylinder heads bible.
Then you need "Automotive supercharging and turbocharging manual" John D Humphries, Haynes, ISBN 0-85429-880-0 which is the best FI book I've read and I've read a lot of them. It might be out of print.
After having read them, you'll be in a better position to figure your plan of attack.
It depends whether your plan of attack is to scoop out the chambers a bit and run a low boost, or something a bit more exciting. There is very little literature on cams for supercharged engines but there are a few rules of thumb. They're only really relevant if you're going to run a bit more than a bit boost! The exhaust part of the equation is the most important.
What is the engine spec? particularly ports/valves/cam timing/compression ratio/operating revs/ more importantly what are you trying to achieve?
My brief was to get the most out of the engine using 15PSI boost using all the tricks and have something which holds together.
I think the balance between just assisting the engine with a blower and a full-on engine is as follows.
Home spun modded cylinder head(s), reprofiled cam(s) and moderate boost. Home spun electronic programmable ignition. You'll have to get it set up properly which will either involve lots of runs up a big hill with a passenger on a laptop or at a RR. Run it all past me as I'm a right enthusiast.
The engine is currently completely stock, and sitting in my garage! I bought it, and a spare 2.7l (with a 2.5l thrown in free!), off e-bay to use in a mid-engined locost type project. I started this and then circumstances changed and the plan was shelved. I recently found an old Eagle SS for peanuts and decided to resurrect my dream of owning a car that actually looked and drove the way a car should. At Stoneleigh this year I was talking to other members of the Eagle Owners Club and discovered that one of the Nova’s across the road had fitted the Rover 2.7l v6 into the back of his using a homemade adaptor plate. Ben, the marvellous man responsible, spent a long time explaining his set up and then donated his adaptor plate template to my cause free!!!! I thus dropped my ideas for saving up to purchase either a Subaru or Porsche flat 4/6 and use the v6 in the garage. I am still finishing cleaning up the chassis and refitting the dropped floor pan but my thoughts are turning to the engine. I have all of the looms for the three engines in the garage and just looking at them makes my heart sink, so I was thinking of using an aftermarket ECU, either Megasquirt or Emerald, rather than trying to sort out the spaghetti I have. Ben used the whole of the original loom! As the engines have been sitting for a while, and I am not completely sure of their original condition, I am planning a full strip down, inspection and rebuild. Whilst I am working on the engine it has occurred to me that I may a well try and improve the performance as much as possible. I know that the air intake is quite restrictive and so am thinking that I will have to build new air inlets and plenum chambers probably with twin throttle bodies as the v6 design and the design of the Eagle means that I can easily have two cone filters fitted, one on either side. I have bought a couple of books the engine builders handbook for the rebuild, optimising engine management for the ECU and How to build, modify and power tune cylinder heads for the headwork I expect to have to do. I was thinking of different ways of improving the performance, the chassis is pre ’72 and therefore tax exempt as well as not needing an emissions test so the cat will go and I have already decided to free up the air in which should help. Further than that I leave my comfort zone and am looking for assistance. I have been told that a little light porting can only assist in airflow and I have bought a few bits for my Dremel in anticipation. I cannot find any performance tuning bits for the engine anywhere so I think that it is not going to be the easiest thing in the world to work on, although I have been told that a US company did a twin turbo conversion and one still does a blower for the Honda applications. The pistons seem to have quite a deep valve recess cut into them already so I am guessing there is not much scope to increase the cam lift, even if I could find someone who did it! (or I felt confident enough to have a go myself!!) I am still in the process of reading into the subject but your post, and kind offer of assistance, was too good to miss. All this is a round about way of saying that whilst I am enthusiastic I am not experienced and welcome as much assistance as can be provided. My desired end state is a relatively well mannered engine that will provide sufficient “grin” factor for the occasional track day whilst allowing me the practicality of everyday driving. Oh and of course something of the order of 200 BHP to scare my family!!!! ;-)
Decompression plate if clearance is an issue. The calculation isn't difficult to achieve a given CR. A modern approach is to strap the head down in a mill and just machine the chambers out circular. Also you could have a piston out and see if the valve recesses are cast or milled out, use your discression and think about turning out the dishes more, but I imagine they will be close to the minimum thickness. You don't want a piston to go on you. A modern head should be well ported to start with and material thickness will be at a minimum so there will be little room to open them out. My thoughts on the exhaust are that you should select an exhaust appropriate for the amount of gas you're dealing with. I'd aim for that percentage more of exhaust capacity. Achieved by preferably bigger exhaust valves, then cam lift and finally longer rockers. You want your exhaust open as much as possible as soon as possible with as little strain on the valve gear as possible, if this is a problem a slight increase in exhaust duration is a good thing. Common figures are from 10 to 15 degrees over inlet for similar lifts.
Megajolt/squirt is great.
It's going to be a beast! I would have a look at Mazda Millenia blowers on ebay (US) which go for cheap, they are a brilliant design (screw) and have a litre pass and would blow your engine a treat. I think they also have an internal clutch so you could have a mad max style blower switch. You could also revert to an unblown map, but let's face it why would you want to do that!
Megajolt/squirt is great.
It's going to be a beast! I would have a look at Mazda Millenia blowers on ebay (US) which go for cheap, they are a brilliant design (screw) and have a litre pass and would blow your engine a treat. I think they also have an internal clutch so you could have a mad max style blower switch. You could also revert to an unblown map, but let's face it why would you want to do that!
Many thanks for the reply, I am going to have to take a short break with a damp tea towel wrapped round my head to try and work it all out! 
I will dig out the manual when I get home to try and post some of the figures, if I can find them! I hope that it will be a beast, that is certainly my plan 
only time will tell! Many thanks again,'
Jon
I will dig out the manual when I get home to try and post some of the figures, if I can find them! I hope that it will be a beast, that is certainly my plan only time will tell! Many thanks again,' Jon
If you still havent decided on an engine, go to a specialist breakers (porsche-apart or douglas valley) and get a 944 turbo engine. 2.5 litres, 220/ 250 to begin with, and an easy 300 bhp (mine is 294 bhp with little expense). And it'll make a nice change from all those Ford-engined cars out there.
You coudl also get the rear transaxle as well, with LSD. In fact, why not re-body the 944 Turbo into something lighter??? The engine/ drivetrain/ suspension is all subframe mounted, so the body could be lifted off and replaced with a newer one. Hence you would'nt need to sort out the new suspension designs. I think I have found my own winter project there!
You coudl also get the rear transaxle as well, with LSD. In fact, why not re-body the 944 Turbo into something lighter??? The engine/ drivetrain/ suspension is all subframe mounted, so the body could be lifted off and replaced with a newer one. Hence you would'nt need to sort out the new suspension designs. I think I have found my own winter project there!
I havent read the entire thread..too much.
Use whichever engine is cheapest and lightest. Ford Zetec is probably a good bet. aLthough if you could fit a Subaru engine, they are excellent engines. Might not package well in a Caterham type car though ?? On the other hand, they might work very well, and will come blown and ready to rock. If you get a good one with a TD04 turbo, they have virtually no lag, and although a small turbo, can still squeeze about 260-270bhp from them. Best bit is it has full boost by a little over 2000rpm.
Multiple throttles are a total waste of money for a forced induction car IMO.
Unless you are chasing silly power levels, dont touch the std cams either. Yet another waste of money. Std mild cams always work well when blown.
Drop the CR, but I would do it with pistons, properly. Compression plates and also effect cam timing, and increase chances of head gasket failure.
I wouldnt even consider altering combustion chamber shape.
If you use a smallish turbo, it will spool fast, and you could also map boost vs rpm, to dull the usual mid-range turbo kick that feels so good, but doesnt always help traction. A small turbo will mean virtually no lag too.
A supercharger may work better in that respect, but a small turbo will work good too, and probably be cheaper.
I wouldnt bother with an air-water chargecooler unless packaging requires it.
An air-air is simpler, lighter and works just as well. Despite the hillclimb nature, I think an air-air will work just as well.
Personal choice really.
Depends on your overall power goals.
Use whichever engine is cheapest and lightest. Ford Zetec is probably a good bet. aLthough if you could fit a Subaru engine, they are excellent engines. Might not package well in a Caterham type car though ?? On the other hand, they might work very well, and will come blown and ready to rock. If you get a good one with a TD04 turbo, they have virtually no lag, and although a small turbo, can still squeeze about 260-270bhp from them. Best bit is it has full boost by a little over 2000rpm.
Multiple throttles are a total waste of money for a forced induction car IMO.
Unless you are chasing silly power levels, dont touch the std cams either. Yet another waste of money. Std mild cams always work well when blown.
Drop the CR, but I would do it with pistons, properly. Compression plates and also effect cam timing, and increase chances of head gasket failure.
I wouldnt even consider altering combustion chamber shape.
If you use a smallish turbo, it will spool fast, and you could also map boost vs rpm, to dull the usual mid-range turbo kick that feels so good, but doesnt always help traction. A small turbo will mean virtually no lag too.
A supercharger may work better in that respect, but a small turbo will work good too, and probably be cheaper.
I wouldnt bother with an air-water chargecooler unless packaging requires it.
An air-air is simpler, lighter and works just as well. Despite the hillclimb nature, I think an air-air will work just as well.
Personal choice really.
Depends on your overall power goals.
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