Peugoet 106 race car clutch issue
Discussion
Hello,
I'll try to keep this brief.
I have a 106 rallye S2 race car, about 5 years ago I swapped the box out for a rebuilt S1 rallye box. All good.
Then I had the engine rebuilt, including lighter flywheel. It was almost impossible to select a gear upon the car's return. Sent it back to be inspected, came back a bit better ( changed clutch cable, pressure plate and clutch). Managed to do some racing, then gearbox got worse and popped out of gear on full power and difficult to select without a crunch. Rebuilt box, back in car, worked fine for a bit, then started to fail again with gears getting progressively harder to select at high revs.
Changed clutch and pressure plate again, rebuilt gearbox - this was done by a specialist, but the fitment of box was done by me. No more than 2 hours of racing later, gear box is clunky again, very difficult at high engine revs to get a clean gear change up or down the box.
So I am now on my 3rd gearbox rebuild ( in the past I could go 5 seasons without taking the box off)
Somewhat pissed off.
So a couple of things who do you recommend in the Oxford/Reading area to do some proper diagnosis of the fault?
Any body got any ideas as to what might be the cause?
I'm thinking, clutch drag, but testing for this by selecting first and revving it to 7k did not show any signs. Maybe engine/box needed to be warmer?
Flywheel has hot spots, not properly aligned?
standard pressure plate not man enough
standard clutch not man enough
cable stretched
car only has 130 bhp so not overly powerful.
thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jXg-ZDa0BY. here is a video where you can hear the crunching. ship to about 8 mins in.
I'll try to keep this brief.
I have a 106 rallye S2 race car, about 5 years ago I swapped the box out for a rebuilt S1 rallye box. All good.
Then I had the engine rebuilt, including lighter flywheel. It was almost impossible to select a gear upon the car's return. Sent it back to be inspected, came back a bit better ( changed clutch cable, pressure plate and clutch). Managed to do some racing, then gearbox got worse and popped out of gear on full power and difficult to select without a crunch. Rebuilt box, back in car, worked fine for a bit, then started to fail again with gears getting progressively harder to select at high revs.
Changed clutch and pressure plate again, rebuilt gearbox - this was done by a specialist, but the fitment of box was done by me. No more than 2 hours of racing later, gear box is clunky again, very difficult at high engine revs to get a clean gear change up or down the box.
So I am now on my 3rd gearbox rebuild ( in the past I could go 5 seasons without taking the box off)
Somewhat pissed off.
So a couple of things who do you recommend in the Oxford/Reading area to do some proper diagnosis of the fault?
Any body got any ideas as to what might be the cause?
I'm thinking, clutch drag, but testing for this by selecting first and revving it to 7k did not show any signs. Maybe engine/box needed to be warmer?
Flywheel has hot spots, not properly aligned?
standard pressure plate not man enough
standard clutch not man enough
cable stretched
car only has 130 bhp so not overly powerful.
thanks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jXg-ZDa0BY. here is a video where you can hear the crunching. ship to about 8 mins in.
Edited by Dynion Araf Uchaf on Saturday 2nd November 18:22
Mineral oil is definitely best in the MA box, but it is a fragile one anyway. With 130hp I'd recommend the standard clutch, they're generally good for 180+ unless you've got a particular need to get better throttle response by fitting a much lighter one.
Hopefully the oil change will sort it, what was the damage when you pulled the boxes last time?
ETA: Love the video, makes me miss my indigo S2...
Are you on the FB groups?
Hopefully the oil change will sort it, what was the damage when you pulled the boxes last time?
ETA: Love the video, makes me miss my indigo S2...
Are you on the FB groups?Edited by Krikkit on Thursday 16th April 17:08
Krikkit said:
Mineral oil is definitely best in the MA box, but it is a fragile one anyway. With 130hp I'd recommend the standard clutch, they're generally good for 180+ unless you've got a particular need to get better throttle response by fitting a much lighter one.
Hopefully the oil change will sort it, what was the damage when you pulled the boxes last time?
ETA: Love the video, makes me miss my indigo S2... Are you on the FB groups?
yes on 106 rallye Fb group.Hopefully the oil change will sort it, what was the damage when you pulled the boxes last time?
ETA: Love the video, makes me miss my indigo S2...
Are you on the FB groups?Edited by Krikkit on Thursday 16th April 17:08
the car does have a standard clutch,, all new along with release bearing , cable and pressure plate. Basically the last time the box was opened up it was full of swarf, I think it was broken teeth on the synchs - they're the brass coloured ones?. I wouldn't have said that the box was all that fragile, previously when it had the correct oil in, I got 8 seasons of racing out of it no probs. But I should have checked more carefully what oil it needs.
When I drained the oil there was a bit of swarf on the sump plug, so just got to hope there's still some life left. I can't help thinking that it should be no worse than a 90k miles gearbox. But then that's not saying much..
coming back to this again.
I have just collected my gear box, having been rebuilt. It is all brand new and good to go. Shout out to Tadley Transmissions - good job done.
As per my last post on this subject, I put mineral oil in, and used a liqui moly product, after I had established that fully synth is not the way to go. This seemed to do the job in as much as it didn't appear to get any worse over the next season or so of racing.
Having inspected the internals of the box, the 'coating' on the gears had been removed, and the synchros had closed up the gap to the gears. There was some very minor damage to some of the synchros.
So I think the fully synth oil caused the coating to come off the gears - would this be the case?
I will now put in from the start a Hypoid Mineral oil of the correct grade, and may use the Liqui moly stuff. Although I might wait until I've done a couple of races to see it if needs it.
Anyway, has anybody got any other ideas as to what may have caused the coating on the gears to remove?
I have just collected my gear box, having been rebuilt. It is all brand new and good to go. Shout out to Tadley Transmissions - good job done.
As per my last post on this subject, I put mineral oil in, and used a liqui moly product, after I had established that fully synth is not the way to go. This seemed to do the job in as much as it didn't appear to get any worse over the next season or so of racing.
Having inspected the internals of the box, the 'coating' on the gears had been removed, and the synchros had closed up the gap to the gears. There was some very minor damage to some of the synchros.
So I think the fully synth oil caused the coating to come off the gears - would this be the case?
I will now put in from the start a Hypoid Mineral oil of the correct grade, and may use the Liqui moly stuff. Although I might wait until I've done a couple of races to see it if needs it.
Anyway, has anybody got any other ideas as to what may have caused the coating on the gears to remove?
My money would be on the new lightweight (thinner?) flywheel being a bit further away from the clutch release, and therefore the clutch not disengaging fully/dragging, and conseqentially transmitting torque through the gearbox at undesirable moments. I can't see different grades of oil being responsible for major short term damage that you're seeing, looks like a more fundamental mechanical issue.
the flywheel is the original one, slightly lightened - it's not a swiss cheese version.
I did use a self adjusting clutch cable and I don't think that helped either.
I now have a rebuilt box, correct oil, manual adjustment cable alongside standard clutch plate and clutch cover, mated to a flywheel that has had a bit of weight taken out the back of it. I guess I'll find out if that works.
I did use a self adjusting clutch cable and I don't think that helped either.
I now have a rebuilt box, correct oil, manual adjustment cable alongside standard clutch plate and clutch cover, mated to a flywheel that has had a bit of weight taken out the back of it. I guess I'll find out if that works.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
I will now put in from the start a Hypoid Mineral oil of the correct grade
Presumably it isn't a hypoid gearbox so you wouldn't normally need to run a hypoid oil. If it's wearing gear teeth that suggests the lubrication is breaking down. Synthetic oils tend to have a higher film strength and I'd have thought that would help the problem, not cause it. Have you asked your gearbox specialist what the problem is?Yes, i did ask, and along with other racers of PSA tat the conclusion is that the MA box doesn’t like fully synth oil, although slightly later versions are ok with semi synths. The recommendation has been to use mineral, which I did swap into before rebuilding this box and the feeling I got was that the damage to the box didn’t seem to be getting any worse.
If it helps knackered synchs is a trait of these boxes when used in motorsport.
If it helps knackered synchs is a trait of these boxes when used in motorsport.
Could the gear wear be due to the lighter flywheel allowing more vibration into the transmission?
It isn't obvious why synchro life would have changed if you're using the same oil and the clutch is releasing cleanly. Is it possible the more responsive engine is leading to you pushing the gear change through faster? And is a dog box an option for you?
It isn't obvious why synchro life would have changed if you're using the same oil and the clutch is releasing cleanly. Is it possible the more responsive engine is leading to you pushing the gear change through faster? And is a dog box an option for you?
Dog box not a option.
One theory is that the synchros move slightly closer to the gears when the coating wears, thus meaning that they are not as efficient at managing the control of the input shaft. When The box is new it is very good. I am still trying to ascertain why the coating on the gears wears out.
One theory is that the synchros move slightly closer to the gears when the coating wears, thus meaning that they are not as efficient at managing the control of the input shaft. When The box is new it is very good. I am still trying to ascertain why the coating on the gears wears out.
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