Engine from scratch FAO Rev-erend
Discussion
I have just been reading this thread [url]http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=66&t=24523&h=0&hw[/url]
and was wondering if it really is that difficult to make an engine from scratch.
When I say scratch , there was a headline on pistonheads a while back about 2 Hayabusa engines converted into a V8.
Now they were selling for £30,000 , but I would have thought a prototype could have been built for a fraction of that ( ignoring my time and my firms "machine time" ;) )
Flat plane crankshaft (nitrided billet En40B) and a crankase machined from billet aluminium , both of which I could [small]should be able to[/small] do , all that would be necessary , I think , would be to double the oil and water flow , organise a bearing between two adjacents conrods ,if one is needed, and investigate the feasibility of reversing the direction of one set of barrels and heads ( to allow the inlet sides to be in the centre of the vee ).
All the ignition etc. is already standard.
If I sound like a dreamer , you should read the Kit Car Forum :hehe:
Rev-erend , what do you think
[small]Actually ,as I work for a gear cutting company , watch this space for a mating 6 speed transaxle , any takers ? :)[/small]
and was wondering if it really is that difficult to make an engine from scratch.
When I say scratch , there was a headline on pistonheads a while back about 2 Hayabusa engines converted into a V8.
Now they were selling for £30,000 , but I would have thought a prototype could have been built for a fraction of that ( ignoring my time and my firms "machine time" ;) )
Flat plane crankshaft (nitrided billet En40B) and a crankase machined from billet aluminium , both of which I could [small]should be able to[/small] do , all that would be necessary , I think , would be to double the oil and water flow , organise a bearing between two adjacents conrods ,if one is needed, and investigate the feasibility of reversing the direction of one set of barrels and heads ( to allow the inlet sides to be in the centre of the vee ).
All the ignition etc. is already standard.
If I sound like a dreamer , you should read the Kit Car Forum :hehe:
Rev-erend , what do you think
[small]Actually ,as I work for a gear cutting company , watch this space for a mating 6 speed transaxle , any takers ? :)[/small]
Also, remember that the companies who have done this (eg. Cyclone) have found it necessary to do major development work on the oil feed/scavenging to the heads.
Dry sump with a proprietary, external (belt driven) scavenge/pressure pump is almost certainly the way to go, but remember that at least one of your heads will be operating at an angle it wasn't designed for, so be careful in thinking how the oil would be scavenged back down.
Dry sump with a proprietary, external (belt driven) scavenge/pressure pump is almost certainly the way to go, but remember that at least one of your heads will be operating at an angle it wasn't designed for, so be careful in thinking how the oil would be scavenged back down.
i would love to see the Hayabusa engined v8 turned in to a v10. using the same bore/stroke, cam profiles and throttle bodies. this would require huge amount of engineering, new block, heads, bottom end etc etc but i like the idea of 3.2l v10 producing 400+ bhp!
getting something like this to meet emissions might be problem though.
getting something like this to meet emissions might be problem though.
Mutant Rat said:Not necessarily, if one bank of pistons is esssentialy running backwards
but remember that at least one of your heads will be operating at an angle it wasn't designed for, so be careful in thinking how the oil would be scavenged back down.
I thought that was one of the main advangatges, you only work on the cams and let someone else (clever Japenese chaps) design and build the heads/barrels. I guess there's even an outside chance you could turn 2 cams through 180deg and use OEM ones
An Idea I had was to use 2 complete sets of engine internals crank and all, machine a billet crankcase and put them back to back connected by a pair of 150mm ish gears
No idea if that poses a problem getting the power out
given that bike engines are designed to work upright the whole time (at least in terms of forces acting on the oil), you're gonna have to deal with that as discussed already. but why go for a v8? what about boxer config? should be able to mount way lower in the chassis. i guess there's a balance/power/ crank issue with a v8 boxer? i dont see why, kind of like 2 boxers inline but cant think of any produced so maybe there's a prob...
z1000 said:It's only 2 R1 engines back to back, so I'd call it an idea rather than a design
Is that your own design ?
Although the single crank would indeed be interesting you could get that one up and running a lot quicker
You're the gear expert, any problems getting the power out ??
z1000 said:
I have just been reading this thread [url]www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?p=1&f=66&t=24523&h=0&hw[/url]
and was wondering if it really is that difficult to make an engine from scratch.
When I say scratch , there was a headline on pistonheads a while back about 2 Hayabusa engines converted into a V8.
Now they were selling for £30,000 , but I would have thought a prototype could have been built for a fraction of that ( ignoring my time and my firms "machine time")
Flat plane crankshaft (nitrided billet En40B) and a crankase machined from billet aluminium , both of which I could should be able to do , all that would be necessary , I think , would be to double the oil and water flow , organise a bearing between two adjacents conrods ,if one is needed, and investigate the feasibility of reversing the direction of one set of barrels and heads ( to allow the inlet sides to be in the centre of the vee ).
All the ignition etc. is already standard.
If I sound like a dreamer , you should read the Kit Car Forum
Rev-erend , what do you think
Actually ,as I work for a gear cutting company , watch this space for a mating 6 speed transaxle , any takers ?
It's got to be an easier job to create a 'bottom end'
for 2 motor bikes engines than to create a whole engine.
Why make a new one unless you have a totally new concept - like the lotus guys with the 2.1 ltr V10 and is also electric powered (vehicle) plus power regeneration.
Many can machine something up but turning this into a comercial reality that people expect to last for x miles / year's is a real big step.
Gotta say - we live in exciting times..
I don't think that the manufacture of a bespoke engine from scratch is all that difficult.
The problem is tuning it.
When I say "tune", I'm not really talking about getting the mixture right. What I am talking about is perfecting clearances and fits, producing ideal flows, removing reliability issues.
The best way of doing it, is to stick it on a dyno. If you're going to produce an engine that produces say 200hp then you're going to need a pretty big dyno.
I suppose that you could use a rolling road dyno, but the difficulty is that each time you want to sort something out, the engine has to come out!
I'd have thought that the best approach is to start with a small engine, which is easier to build, and work up in size, making your mistakes in small scale.
If you're doing a 50cc single cylinder engine, you can substitute the dyno for a reasonably small propellor, using air as the brake.
Once you've got the engine right, you can get to 200cc with four cylinders. The only design change is the ancilliaries, the crank case and maybe the cylinder heads/block.
Looking at it another way, you could set yourself the challenge of getting 400 horses from 400 cc.
I think it's easy to forget that selecting something as complicated as an engine from it's specs, does not reveal the ammount of time and effort that goes into achieving those specs.
Edited to add;
If you're interested in small scale IC engines, a good place to start is to read some of Edgar T Westbury's books. Another author is Prof D H Chaddock.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 3rd June 20:17
The problem is tuning it.
When I say "tune", I'm not really talking about getting the mixture right. What I am talking about is perfecting clearances and fits, producing ideal flows, removing reliability issues.
The best way of doing it, is to stick it on a dyno. If you're going to produce an engine that produces say 200hp then you're going to need a pretty big dyno.
I suppose that you could use a rolling road dyno, but the difficulty is that each time you want to sort something out, the engine has to come out!
I'd have thought that the best approach is to start with a small engine, which is easier to build, and work up in size, making your mistakes in small scale.
If you're doing a 50cc single cylinder engine, you can substitute the dyno for a reasonably small propellor, using air as the brake.
Once you've got the engine right, you can get to 200cc with four cylinders. The only design change is the ancilliaries, the crank case and maybe the cylinder heads/block.
Looking at it another way, you could set yourself the challenge of getting 400 horses from 400 cc.
I think it's easy to forget that selecting something as complicated as an engine from it's specs, does not reveal the ammount of time and effort that goes into achieving those specs.
Edited to add;
If you're interested in small scale IC engines, a good place to start is to read some of Edgar T Westbury's books. Another author is Prof D H Chaddock.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 3rd June 20:17
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