Urgent Help please! - VAG 1.8 20VT engine
Discussion
Hi All,
I don't really want to go off on a rant for ages about what's happened to my car, but I really need some help from those more technically (engine) minded than myself.
My Audi S3 after having it's short engine (and all associated bits) replaced was being tested by the garage and to my horror I received a call the day before I was due to collect it saying we've had a problem, they were on a test drive and the car started miss firing badly, guy pulls over straight away and car gets recovered back to garage.
Next morning they start checking the simple things and find one of the tips of one of the new spark plugs had fallen to bits. The garage at this point assumed the bits we jaming a valve and took it down to the local Audi garage (trying to stick to the no naming and shaming rule here - very bloody hard mind) to have it fixed under the parts warranty.
Without explaining the incompetence of said garage and there unwillingness to help... the independant dealing with the Audi garage have had an independant (to all parties) engine specalist look at the head and valve that I believe was broken by the spark plug falling apart, the specalist has said the spark plug fell apart then the bits broke a chunk out of one of the exhaust valves, all bits are nowhere to be seen (turbo and cat are hopefully ok - not been checked yet).
Ok so just to make my day on friday after being without my car for the best part of three months, I get a call saying the Audi garage are disputing what the independant and independant engine specalist are saying, they have Audi UKs backing in saying the valve broke the spark plug NOT the other way around, can anyone shed any light on this, I assumed it would be impossible.
I am seriously FFFFFED off about this and really want to take someone (Audi not independant) to court if possible over this, so can anyone comment on the idea of a valve breaking a plug or vise versa?
Any help even if not specific to the 1.8 20VT engine would be MUCH appritiated.
Cheers guys and mank thanks to anyone that even bothered reading this far!
I don't really want to go off on a rant for ages about what's happened to my car, but I really need some help from those more technically (engine) minded than myself.
My Audi S3 after having it's short engine (and all associated bits) replaced was being tested by the garage and to my horror I received a call the day before I was due to collect it saying we've had a problem, they were on a test drive and the car started miss firing badly, guy pulls over straight away and car gets recovered back to garage.
Next morning they start checking the simple things and find one of the tips of one of the new spark plugs had fallen to bits. The garage at this point assumed the bits we jaming a valve and took it down to the local Audi garage (trying to stick to the no naming and shaming rule here - very bloody hard mind) to have it fixed under the parts warranty.
Without explaining the incompetence of said garage and there unwillingness to help... the independant dealing with the Audi garage have had an independant (to all parties) engine specalist look at the head and valve that I believe was broken by the spark plug falling apart, the specalist has said the spark plug fell apart then the bits broke a chunk out of one of the exhaust valves, all bits are nowhere to be seen (turbo and cat are hopefully ok - not been checked yet).
Ok so just to make my day on friday after being without my car for the best part of three months, I get a call saying the Audi garage are disputing what the independant and independant engine specalist are saying, they have Audi UKs backing in saying the valve broke the spark plug NOT the other way around, can anyone shed any light on this, I assumed it would be impossible.
I am seriously FFFFFED off about this and really want to take someone (Audi not independant) to court if possible over this, so can anyone comment on the idea of a valve breaking a plug or vise versa?
Any help even if not specific to the 1.8 20VT engine would be MUCH appritiated.
Cheers guys and mank thanks to anyone that even bothered reading this far!
www.dialynx.co.uk will do you a rebuild properly if you get to the stage of needing one. Personally, i don't see why Audi are involved at all. The specialist has installed the new engine and it doesn't work. It's up to them to sort it out.
Hi agent 006,
thanks for the reply, the problem I have is Audi were useless at helping in the first place on a knackered engine on a bloody expensive car that's only done 60,000 miles, then I decided to pay a fortune for all Audi parts with a garuntee to be used just to be told when three days after the car was sorted on a test drive to have a new spark plug
up a valve and possibly the turbo too. I want Audi to sort this on principle and I don't think I or the independant tuning company should have to pay anymore (although I don't think I'll have to as the tuning company doing the work has been fantastic).
I just wanted to get a better idea in my head of what could have caused the new damage, can a valve damage a spark plug etc?
I have got to the stage where I am getting so pissed off I might have to go to Audi UK and give them a slap as they are soING useless!
thanks for the reply, the problem I have is Audi were useless at helping in the first place on a knackered engine on a bloody expensive car that's only done 60,000 miles, then I decided to pay a fortune for all Audi parts with a garuntee to be used just to be told when three days after the car was sorted on a test drive to have a new spark plug
up a valve and possibly the turbo too. I want Audi to sort this on principle and I don't think I or the independant tuning company should have to pay anymore (although I don't think I'll have to as the tuning company doing the work has been fantastic). I just wanted to get a better idea in my head of what could have caused the new damage, can a valve damage a spark plug etc?
I have got to the stage where I am getting so pissed off I might have to go to Audi UK and give them a slap as they are so
ING useless! Time to write to a few magazines such as AutoExpress and see if they will help you fight your corner.
Did Audi agree to allow the independent inspection to be carried out? One would expect them to accept the response from the inspector... but obviously they are not.
Hope you get this resolved soon!
Edited to say Don't forget Audi Driver magazine too.
>> Edited by targarama on Sunday 15th May 20:41
Did Audi agree to allow the independent inspection to be carried out? One would expect them to accept the response from the inspector... but obviously they are not.
Hope you get this resolved soon!
Edited to say Don't forget Audi Driver magazine too.
>> Edited by targarama on Sunday 15th May 20:41
cheers targarama,
it's already on my list of things to do tomorrow, had forgotten about Audi Driver magazine I do have the contact pages for Evo, Topgear and Whatcar to hand though.
anyone got anything to say on the technical side of things, think I'll be doing a motorsport engineering / law combined honours degree at this rate to fight my own bloody corner!
it's already on my list of things to do tomorrow, had forgotten about Audi Driver magazine I do have the contact pages for Evo, Topgear and Whatcar to hand though.
anyone got anything to say on the technical side of things, think I'll be doing a motorsport engineering / law combined honours degree at this rate to fight my own bloody corner!
Two thoughts in my mind, having read this and some of your other posts...correct me if I'm wrong with the detail:
You have engaged a non-Audi franchised firm to rebuild/repair/fit new engine/parts as you were not happy with the response of Audi - i.e. they would not pay for the initial rebuild, and presumably the independent was lower cost.
The parts required were purchased by and fitted by the independent. One of these parts then failed.
Was the work performed by the independent warranted?
If so, I would look to them to cover the cost following the failure of a part they had fitted. If said part has a warranty from the manufacturer - Audi (although they will simply have badged a OEM part I assume) - then that is up to the independent to chase to reclaim their costs.
Worth a try?
You have engaged a non-Audi franchised firm to rebuild/repair/fit new engine/parts as you were not happy with the response of Audi - i.e. they would not pay for the initial rebuild, and presumably the independent was lower cost.
The parts required were purchased by and fitted by the independent. One of these parts then failed.
Was the work performed by the independent warranted?
If so, I would look to them to cover the cost following the failure of a part they had fitted. If said part has a warranty from the manufacturer - Audi (although they will simply have badged a OEM part I assume) - then that is up to the independent to chase to reclaim their costs.
Worth a try?
Spark plug ceramics don't break off that often and when it does happen it's for a reason.
I can see both sides of the story here as it's something i've been in the middle of many times.
Lets see if i've got this right......
The independant bought Audi branded spark plugs and fitted them to the engine, assuming they checked the condition of the plugs before fitting and found them to be free of defects. The plug then shed it's core/ceramic into the cylinder where it was crushed by the exhaust valve on it's way out.
The plug might have failed for several reasons, none can really be put on Audi's doorstep.
The plug could have been cracked due to impact prior to fitting, the installer must have missed it, audi didn't fit it.
The plug was overheated due to an ignition fault, again unless you've got new ignition components in the system firing the plugs, it's not Audi's responsibility.
However, your contract was with the people who fitted the engine, they were tasked with getting your car back on the road. This is something they've not done as yet, so all costs incurred can be put to them.
May I ask why the base engine needed replacement after such a low mileage?
Also a hi res picture of the broken plug would be nice, a lot can be established by looking at the broken bits.
I find it Very unlikely that the valve failed as this would have also taken out the head and piston.
I can see both sides of the story here as it's something i've been in the middle of many times.
Lets see if i've got this right......
The independant bought Audi branded spark plugs and fitted them to the engine, assuming they checked the condition of the plugs before fitting and found them to be free of defects. The plug then shed it's core/ceramic into the cylinder where it was crushed by the exhaust valve on it's way out.
The plug might have failed for several reasons, none can really be put on Audi's doorstep.
The plug could have been cracked due to impact prior to fitting, the installer must have missed it, audi didn't fit it.
The plug was overheated due to an ignition fault, again unless you've got new ignition components in the system firing the plugs, it's not Audi's responsibility.
However, your contract was with the people who fitted the engine, they were tasked with getting your car back on the road. This is something they've not done as yet, so all costs incurred can be put to them.
May I ask why the base engine needed replacement after such a low mileage?
Also a hi res picture of the broken plug would be nice, a lot can be established by looking at the broken bits.
I find it Very unlikely that the valve failed as this would have also taken out the head and piston.
just to clear things up... and I'm going to name names as I think it will clear things up, not sure if I'm breaking rules here, but this is all FACTUAL - I also don't want to cause trouble, I'm just getting a bit fed up.
piston rings failed on cylinder 2 on my 2000 S3 with only 60,000 miles on the clock, most are motorway, car is totally standard, been looked after very well, I knew the previous owner.
I asked Reading Audi to look at the car, they couldn't tell me what it was other than that cylinder 2 had low compression, they requested to strip the head etc to find out the cause, but would not even give me the worst case quote as to how much it would cost if I needed a new engine, I didn't like the thought of this with £100 / hour labour rate.
complained to Audi UK CS as I thought this was a bit bellow par for an engine with only 60,000 miles - not interested until I knew what the problem was (fair enough I guess)
Decided I didn't want to leave my car in Audis hands as I had no idea of final bill and had just been made redundant...
Spoke to a number of companies and looked around the net for recommendations, AmD stood out above most others for Audi servicing / tuning, and the guys are bend over backwards helpful on the phone and in person.
So they looked at the car, diagnosed piston ring failure or worse within a few hours. Suggested replacement of all rings and rebuild etc. after a lot of thinking agreed.
Spoke to Audi UK now I knew what the problem was, now not interested as it's not at an Audi dealer, even though AmD do tuning for a lot of the dealers in the south east.
AmD striped the engine when new rings and seals were received from Audi only to find piston and bore of cylinder badly damaged - I have a photo of the piston.
After thinking about what to do, do I want to keep the car long term etc, I decide that a new short engine is better than a rebore so approve to have a new short engine and a lot of other work done on the car, new clutch, water pump, belts, tensioners etc. So all the parts are covered by Audis parts warranty as they were sourced from Audi as new.
I also in this time decided I wanted to try and make Audi realise how I was feeling as a very disappointed customer, so I sent an email to there worldwide CEO, this was picked up by Audis customer services in Germany. They also feel Audi have done all they can and it's my fault for not letting Audi Reading diagnose the fault for an unknown amount of money.
the car is back together and running fine, had been test driven on a number of occasions by AmD, then the day before I go to collect the car, the manager takes it out for a final test to check everything is ok, car starts to misfire badly.
The realise the spark plug is damaged (I am not sure exactly how, will try and find out tomorrow) the following morning and take to there local dealership to have the problem fixed under the parts warranty. Wayside Audi don't even look at the car for two weeks leading up to last week.
I then complain to Audi UK as AmD are not having any luck pressuring the dealer into sorting the car, they look at the car the same day and claim the valve is burnt out and that’s what caused the misfire. AmD think this is a load of rubbish, so do I! AmD take the head from Audi to a specialist engine independent in the area to verify what they think, his opinion (not AmDs) was the spark plug debris (think it was metal from the plug that broke off) had smashed a chip out of the exhaust valve and no bits could be found.
AmD inform Audi and ask them what they will do now, The Audi dealership then decides to go to Audi UK to verify what is wrong - they say they thing the valve broke the spark plug (and I don't understand this bit).
Not only from a customer service point of view as I would have been a customer for life, but also now from a parts warranty point of view as everything bar the head was new I have real issues with Audis attitude, I get the impression on here that I should just put up and shut up... but I don't think that's fair the bill is already going to be the wrong side of £4k to get my car back.
I'm sure AmD won't charge me for the extra work on the head, but I don't think that's the point anymore, I just can't understand Audis attitude towards me.
Over the time looking around on the web, I also found the below, if anyone is wondering what it would be like to own a particular car have a look
www.topgear.com/content/my_topgear/duffers/
piston rings failed on cylinder 2 on my 2000 S3 with only 60,000 miles on the clock, most are motorway, car is totally standard, been looked after very well, I knew the previous owner.
I asked Reading Audi to look at the car, they couldn't tell me what it was other than that cylinder 2 had low compression, they requested to strip the head etc to find out the cause, but would not even give me the worst case quote as to how much it would cost if I needed a new engine, I didn't like the thought of this with £100 / hour labour rate.
complained to Audi UK CS as I thought this was a bit bellow par for an engine with only 60,000 miles - not interested until I knew what the problem was (fair enough I guess)
Decided I didn't want to leave my car in Audis hands as I had no idea of final bill and had just been made redundant...
Spoke to a number of companies and looked around the net for recommendations, AmD stood out above most others for Audi servicing / tuning, and the guys are bend over backwards helpful on the phone and in person.
So they looked at the car, diagnosed piston ring failure or worse within a few hours. Suggested replacement of all rings and rebuild etc. after a lot of thinking agreed.
Spoke to Audi UK now I knew what the problem was, now not interested as it's not at an Audi dealer, even though AmD do tuning for a lot of the dealers in the south east.
AmD striped the engine when new rings and seals were received from Audi only to find piston and bore of cylinder badly damaged - I have a photo of the piston.
After thinking about what to do, do I want to keep the car long term etc, I decide that a new short engine is better than a rebore so approve to have a new short engine and a lot of other work done on the car, new clutch, water pump, belts, tensioners etc. So all the parts are covered by Audis parts warranty as they were sourced from Audi as new.
I also in this time decided I wanted to try and make Audi realise how I was feeling as a very disappointed customer, so I sent an email to there worldwide CEO, this was picked up by Audis customer services in Germany. They also feel Audi have done all they can and it's my fault for not letting Audi Reading diagnose the fault for an unknown amount of money.
the car is back together and running fine, had been test driven on a number of occasions by AmD, then the day before I go to collect the car, the manager takes it out for a final test to check everything is ok, car starts to misfire badly.
The realise the spark plug is damaged (I am not sure exactly how, will try and find out tomorrow) the following morning and take to there local dealership to have the problem fixed under the parts warranty. Wayside Audi don't even look at the car for two weeks leading up to last week.
I then complain to Audi UK as AmD are not having any luck pressuring the dealer into sorting the car, they look at the car the same day and claim the valve is burnt out and that’s what caused the misfire. AmD think this is a load of rubbish, so do I! AmD take the head from Audi to a specialist engine independent in the area to verify what they think, his opinion (not AmDs) was the spark plug debris (think it was metal from the plug that broke off) had smashed a chip out of the exhaust valve and no bits could be found.
AmD inform Audi and ask them what they will do now, The Audi dealership then decides to go to Audi UK to verify what is wrong - they say they thing the valve broke the spark plug (and I don't understand this bit).
Not only from a customer service point of view as I would have been a customer for life, but also now from a parts warranty point of view as everything bar the head was new I have real issues with Audis attitude, I get the impression on here that I should just put up and shut up... but I don't think that's fair the bill is already going to be the wrong side of £4k to get my car back.
I'm sure AmD won't charge me for the extra work on the head, but I don't think that's the point anymore, I just can't understand Audis attitude towards me.
Over the time looking around on the web, I also found the below, if anyone is wondering what it would be like to own a particular car have a look
www.topgear.com/content/my_topgear/duffers/
I understand you m8, and I feel sorry for you.
I find certain details a little strange in your account of whats preceeded the death of another engine.
over the years i've been playing with vehicles, i've noticed that the only ones that get multiple road tests are the ones with problems!, the dealers don't waste time testing just to make sure. if it gets back after the first test with no problems or leaks it gets invoiced.
I used to know a guy who worked for the independant you mention, He didn't stay there long...before going back to a main dealer.
Which cylinder has suffered the valve failure now, and have you seen the damage?
I'm also concerned why the rings were worn on only 1 cylinder, a cracked valve or similar would produce similar low compression reading.
As an Audi dealer havent stripped the engine, they can't be 100% all the parts are from it, they can't be sure of the workmanship etc, so I really think you should be banging on the MD's door at AmD to get the car back on the road asap.
I find certain details a little strange in your account of whats preceeded the death of another engine.
over the years i've been playing with vehicles, i've noticed that the only ones that get multiple road tests are the ones with problems!, the dealers don't waste time testing just to make sure. if it gets back after the first test with no problems or leaks it gets invoiced.
I used to know a guy who worked for the independant you mention, He didn't stay there long...before going back to a main dealer.
Which cylinder has suffered the valve failure now, and have you seen the damage?
I'm also concerned why the rings were worn on only 1 cylinder, a cracked valve or similar would produce similar low compression reading.
As an Audi dealer havent stripped the engine, they can't be 100% all the parts are from it, they can't be sure of the workmanship etc, so I really think you should be banging on the MD's door at AmD to get the car back on the road asap.
Oh I know all about Audi Dealers. They're scum:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&h=&t=137403
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&h=&t=137403
hi nighthawk,
thanks for your comments, I'll have to try and find out more about the new damage, although I have to say I've had good experiences with AmD. I believe them when they were saying it was running great after all the work had been done.
Just incase anyone is interested there a pic of the knackered piston below.
cheers ben.
thanks for your comments, I'll have to try and find out more about the new damage, although I have to say I've had good experiences with AmD. I believe them when they were saying it was running great after all the work had been done.
Just incase anyone is interested there a pic of the knackered piston below.
cheers ben.
Hi Ben
I can't really comment on the pic as it's difficult to see the detail on the piston crown, one thing I will say is that it looks like a lot more than a piston ring failure.
The piston crown looks to have suffered a degree of melting, was the car missing and thats how you became alerted to the engine concern. Or was it smoking and using excessive amounts oil and down on power?
I can't really comment on the pic as it's difficult to see the detail on the piston crown, one thing I will say is that it looks like a lot more than a piston ring failure.
The piston crown looks to have suffered a degree of melting, was the car missing and thats how you became alerted to the engine concern. Or was it smoking and using excessive amounts oil and down on power?
If you or any others have used official Audi parts to repair the car and those parts have failed you have redress under existing consumer legislation. The parts were not fit for purpose.
6 months ago I bought and fitted some hideously expensive rubber anti roll bar bushes for my Jag S type. Recently they started making the same clunking noise as before.
I went to the Jag spares dept I bought the bushes from with my receipt, and explained the problem hoping for a new set of bushes that I would fit myself.
The garage actually booked my car into their service dept and replaced the bushes foc as it was a warranty claim.
Look at the small print on the invoices for the parts, you may have a remedy hidden in the phrases therein.
Cheers,
Tony
6 months ago I bought and fitted some hideously expensive rubber anti roll bar bushes for my Jag S type. Recently they started making the same clunking noise as before.
I went to the Jag spares dept I bought the bushes from with my receipt, and explained the problem hoping for a new set of bushes that I would fit myself.
The garage actually booked my car into their service dept and replaced the bushes foc as it was a warranty claim.
Look at the small print on the invoices for the parts, you may have a remedy hidden in the phrases therein.
Cheers,
Tony
All manufactures will carry out a free of charge repair on fitted in service parts, this is the ONLY way they can accurately determin the cause of the fault. In this respect jaguar are no different to Audi.
The problem in this case, is that it doesn't look like a new fit part has caused the problem and it's been stripped by a 3rd party.
The only course of action here is for the 3rd party to undertake the repairs and submit a fitted in service warranty claim through the audi dealers parts dept. This course of action would need to be undertaken at the 3rd parties expense and IF the claim is succsessful Audi will credit the 3rd party.
That process can take a month or so to complete and it's subject to the parts being returned to Audi for inspection, if they decide that it's NOT a manufacturing defect, the cost stays with the 3rd party.
Warranty is a mine field, no one wants to get stuck in the middle with the bill.
The problem in this case, is that it doesn't look like a new fit part has caused the problem and it's been stripped by a 3rd party.
The only course of action here is for the 3rd party to undertake the repairs and submit a fitted in service warranty claim through the audi dealers parts dept. This course of action would need to be undertaken at the 3rd parties expense and IF the claim is succsessful Audi will credit the 3rd party.
That process can take a month or so to complete and it's subject to the parts being returned to Audi for inspection, if they decide that it's NOT a manufacturing defect, the cost stays with the 3rd party.
Warranty is a mine field, no one wants to get stuck in the middle with the bill.
cheers to everyone for there advise, I'm waiting to hear back from people tomorrow, so should be interesting to see who ends up paying for what. I am going to try and get AmD to give me a copy of the independant report on the head and damage.
The original problem with the car - I was on my way home from london, car was idling badly but other than that no problem, then the next day (first time I'd driven the car in the daylight) there was blue and white smoke and it'd burnt a lot of oil (last time I drove my car about three months ago now too). i guess the white smoke was actually steam as it was a cold day. think the piston rings had slowly failed, then as soon as the problem appeared with symptoms so to speak it had melted the corner of the piston and inturn scored the bore of the cylinder.
back to my original question though, not really anything to do with my problem anymore, but how could a valve break a spark plug, my brain doesn't seem to like the physics...
The original problem with the car - I was on my way home from london, car was idling badly but other than that no problem, then the next day (first time I'd driven the car in the daylight) there was blue and white smoke and it'd burnt a lot of oil (last time I drove my car about three months ago now too). i guess the white smoke was actually steam as it was a cold day. think the piston rings had slowly failed, then as soon as the problem appeared with symptoms so to speak it had melted the corner of the piston and inturn scored the bore of the cylinder.
back to my original question though, not really anything to do with my problem anymore, but how could a valve break a spark plug, my brain doesn't seem to like the physics...
Ben
For what it's worth, I think the whole job has been incorrectly diagnosed, I think the an ignition misfire was the start of the trail, this proceded to melt the piston and gradualy kill the cylinder bore.
The short motor has fixed the symptoms, but not the cause.
IF a valve had managed to lose a piece, it could only break the spark plug by contact with it.
The only problem with that scenario is......your piston has a combustion bowl in it, any fragments of valve would have fallen into that bowl making it an extremely lucky shot to catch the plug.
I'd really like to see some high res shots of the head, the valve and the piston and plug as they are now.
Bits of valve will cause immense damage to the head and piston as they come into contact with it.
Hope you manage to get to the bottom on this soon m8.
For what it's worth, I think the whole job has been incorrectly diagnosed, I think the an ignition misfire was the start of the trail, this proceded to melt the piston and gradualy kill the cylinder bore.
The short motor has fixed the symptoms, but not the cause.
IF a valve had managed to lose a piece, it could only break the spark plug by contact with it.
The only problem with that scenario is......your piston has a combustion bowl in it, any fragments of valve would have fallen into that bowl making it an extremely lucky shot to catch the plug.
I'd really like to see some high res shots of the head, the valve and the piston and plug as they are now.
Bits of valve will cause immense damage to the head and piston as they come into contact with it.
Hope you manage to get to the bottom on this soon m8.
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