Help - Seized engine!!!
Discussion
I've got a real problem here, possibly it should be in the kit car forum but this one is more specific.
I've spent the last 2 yrs building up a 1.8l zetec-powered kit, a long time I know, but life has been full of surprises... no more so than on Monday when I fired the thing up for the first time:
Everything worked regarding sparks, fuel and starter; it turned over 3 or 4 times on its own and then seized solid. Absolutely nothing I can do (including a 3 ft breaker bar on the crank pulleybolt and plenty of swearing) will move the crankshaft one iota.
I'm part way through stripping it down to look at the bearing shells, but if anyone has any idea what to look for when I get there I'd be glad to hear about it. I rebuilt the engine itself from the block up so I'm 99% sure its not a trapped valve. But apart from a sump change I didn't look at the bottom end. I also didn't have an oil pressure light (foolish I know) so lack of oil is the most likely guess-timated culprit.
What I'd like to know if anyone has put themselves in a similar situation could they offer any advice as to repairability or should I sack the bottom end and get a new one?
Mark.
I've spent the last 2 yrs building up a 1.8l zetec-powered kit, a long time I know, but life has been full of surprises... no more so than on Monday when I fired the thing up for the first time:
Everything worked regarding sparks, fuel and starter; it turned over 3 or 4 times on its own and then seized solid. Absolutely nothing I can do (including a 3 ft breaker bar on the crank pulleybolt and plenty of swearing) will move the crankshaft one iota.
I'm part way through stripping it down to look at the bearing shells, but if anyone has any idea what to look for when I get there I'd be glad to hear about it. I rebuilt the engine itself from the block up so I'm 99% sure its not a trapped valve. But apart from a sump change I didn't look at the bottom end. I also didn't have an oil pressure light (foolish I know) so lack of oil is the most likely guess-timated culprit.
What I'd like to know if anyone has put themselves in a similar situation could they offer any advice as to repairability or should I sack the bottom end and get a new one?
Mark.
In order:
I'm fairly sure I set the cams correctly as it turned ok by hand 6 months ago when I put the head back on. If I have messed it up I will be a very unhappy bunny (bent valve stems, damaged head/pistons etc)
I've got the sump off and cant see anything snagging the flywheel, although there is a residue in the sump that looks suspiciously like rust - perhaps the pistons have rusted slightly in the bores. (it got a good soak in an oil bath when I rebuilt it and I had hoped that would give some protection.
I'm afraid I have no idea what bore clearance I have - I didn't take the pistons out so it should be the same as the standard mondeo/orion zetec.
Thanks for the ideas - I'll take the end caps off tonite and see what horrors await. I don't want to take the head off just yet.
More later...
Mark
>> Edited by zuluwarrior on Thursday 5th May 09:25
I'm fairly sure I set the cams correctly as it turned ok by hand 6 months ago when I put the head back on. If I have messed it up I will be a very unhappy bunny (bent valve stems, damaged head/pistons etc)
I've got the sump off and cant see anything snagging the flywheel, although there is a residue in the sump that looks suspiciously like rust - perhaps the pistons have rusted slightly in the bores. (it got a good soak in an oil bath when I rebuilt it and I had hoped that would give some protection.
I'm afraid I have no idea what bore clearance I have - I didn't take the pistons out so it should be the same as the standard mondeo/orion zetec.
Thanks for the ideas - I'll take the end caps off tonite and see what horrors await. I don't want to take the head off just yet.
More later...
Mark
>> Edited by zuluwarrior on Thursday 5th May 09:25
Regarding the bearing shells: Were these replaced?
If so you should have checked the bearing clearances with plastigage to ensure they wernt too tight.
If they were changed, when you reassembled it, could you turn the crank over by hand?
With no pistons in you should have been able to turn it over between thumb and forefinger.
Also if the bearings were changed, its advisable to attempt to turn the crank each time a bearing cap is torqued down, just in case theres a clearnacing problem. That way youll pick up on which one is the offending "tight" one.
If the bearings are shot, youll soon see the results: there will be surface damage with slivers of bearing material (usually lead/indium iirc) "wiped" from the carcass of the shell and some in the sump pan too.
Hope its not that bad for you tho!
HTH.
If so you should have checked the bearing clearances with plastigage to ensure they wernt too tight.
If they were changed, when you reassembled it, could you turn the crank over by hand?
With no pistons in you should have been able to turn it over between thumb and forefinger.
Also if the bearings were changed, its advisable to attempt to turn the crank each time a bearing cap is torqued down, just in case theres a clearnacing problem. That way youll pick up on which one is the offending "tight" one.
If the bearings are shot, youll soon see the results: there will be surface damage with slivers of bearing material (usually lead/indium iirc) "wiped" from the carcass of the shell and some in the sump pan too.
Hope its not that bad for you tho!
HTH.
You say that the engine won't turn with a bar, does it turn backwards?
Does the engine turn if you get someone to press the clutch?
It wouldn't be unknown for the gearbox or clutch to sieze over time,
As the others have said, 3 or 4 turns shouldn't have been enough to generate enough heat to cause bearing failure.
If it were in front of me, i'd have the plugs out and make sure that the drive train isn't locked up before pulling the lump apart.
The cams can slip out of time if the central bolt isn't tight enough, but the engine would have stopped with a bang it that had happened.
hope it's a cheap fix m8.
Does the engine turn if you get someone to press the clutch?
It wouldn't be unknown for the gearbox or clutch to sieze over time,
As the others have said, 3 or 4 turns shouldn't have been enough to generate enough heat to cause bearing failure.
If it were in front of me, i'd have the plugs out and make sure that the drive train isn't locked up before pulling the lump apart.
The cams can slip out of time if the central bolt isn't tight enough, but the engine would have stopped with a bang it that had happened.
hope it's a cheap fix m8.
Guess what? I've stripped the bottom end down completely and I'm kicking myself for not doing this 6 months ago. the big ends of Cyls 1 & 4 are totally shot - the shells just disintegrated and have gouged about .3mm into the crankshaft (maybe an exaggeration but not much!!) and have even damage the inside of the big end on one of them.
Basically they were almost completely dry of oil which I should've noticed a while ago. The rest of the crankshaft is good though but I think the bores and pistons could do with going over so I have a few more questions:
Can I get just one or two surfaces on the crankshaft ground down or does the whole thing have to be done?
Is it worth it?
or does anyone know of a good zetec crankcase going cheap (coz budget is now shot as well!
)
Thanks for the help so far guys, its been really useful. If you have recommendations on good machining shops around Aldershot or Heathrow (I'm moving between these locations often now!) I'd be glad to hear.
O well, back to the garage again!!
Basically they were almost completely dry of oil which I should've noticed a while ago. The rest of the crankshaft is good though but I think the bores and pistons could do with going over so I have a few more questions:
Can I get just one or two surfaces on the crankshaft ground down or does the whole thing have to be done?
Is it worth it?
or does anyone know of a good zetec crankcase going cheap (coz budget is now shot as well!
) Thanks for the help so far guys, its been really useful. If you have recommendations on good machining shops around Aldershot or Heathrow (I'm moving between these locations often now!) I'd be glad to hear.
O well, back to the garage again!!
Thanks rusty, I'll give those guys in HW a go - did they rebalance the engine for you afterwards?
Not many 1.8 130PS lumps around that I can find unfortunately. And if I went to 2 I'd have to get the ECU remapped, (although if I think about it this might be the cheapest route, but again these are hard to find - I tried last time.)
Apparently the 1.8 130PS are still supplied by Ford Motorsport, but I don't know anyone who works in that area.
I need a few beers over the weekend to contemplate the FUBAR i've got myself into here!
Not many 1.8 130PS lumps around that I can find unfortunately. And if I went to 2 I'd have to get the ECU remapped, (although if I think about it this might be the cheapest route, but again these are hard to find - I tried last time.)
Apparently the 1.8 130PS are still supplied by Ford Motorsport, but I don't know anyone who works in that area.
I need a few beers over the weekend to contemplate the FUBAR i've got myself into here!
The 130Ps engine was only used for a short period of time in Escort and Orion (and one fiesta) series vehicles (xr3i,ghia si and cabrio and rs1800) so finding one at a breakers will be harder than finding a 2.0 (136Ps) mondeo lump.
Which PCM are you using to fuel the car?
The engine is still available on the exchange program through any ford dealer, but iirc the engine is around a grand + vat.
If you have a part number or a specific item you need pricing or info on, mail it to me and i'll see what I can dig up for you.
Which PCM are you using to fuel the car?
The engine is still available on the exchange program through any ford dealer, but iirc the engine is around a grand + vat.
If you have a part number or a specific item you need pricing or info on, mail it to me and i'll see what I can dig up for you.
zuluwarrior said:
did they rebalance the engine for you afterwards?
In short No. I didn't think it necessary as long as the crank was in balance which it should have been by coming down by the same amount on all bearings. Taking the conrod big end back to round removed so little metal I don't belive it would have had any practical effect. It was round enough to work it just wouldn't have given the sort of life I would have liked.
the seized engine problem
you will have to remove crankshaft
take it to an engine rebuild machine shop they will
measure the crank to see if the crank can be reground
they will try to regrind or polish crank so all the pins are clean then the shell bearings will have to be soursed from that any decent rebuilders willtry to help other wise you will have to get a differant crank
this is only the start of the problem if you rebuilt the engine and turned the crank as you were going
then before start up you put oil into it then for an engine to seize in three or four revs is bad the oil pump must have been suspect or the wroung sump or both with out seeing the engine or more deitails i cannot help you but if you need any help with the rebuild or any of your engine problems i will try to help sorry about my spelling and grammer im an engine builder not an english teacher
you will have to remove crankshaft
take it to an engine rebuild machine shop they will
measure the crank to see if the crank can be reground
they will try to regrind or polish crank so all the pins are clean then the shell bearings will have to be soursed from that any decent rebuilders willtry to help other wise you will have to get a differant crank
this is only the start of the problem if you rebuilt the engine and turned the crank as you were going
then before start up you put oil into it then for an engine to seize in three or four revs is bad the oil pump must have been suspect or the wroung sump or both with out seeing the engine or more deitails i cannot help you but if you need any help with the rebuild or any of your engine problems i will try to help sorry about my spelling and grammer im an engine builder not an english teacher
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