Cryogenic block treatment???
Discussion
Techies amongst you will have heard of the cryogenic processes which can strengthen metals and relieve stressed points and still stay within tolerances... but do these processes actually work? or is it just another money-pinching on the bandwagon thing?
What other processes are available to say strengthen a block without affecting tolerances? Someone mentioned photon-banging??? (something like close to the speed of light, millions of photons get shot at the structure)
any views of structural integrity renewal will be greatly appreciated chaps.
What other processes are available to say strengthen a block without affecting tolerances? Someone mentioned photon-banging??? (something like close to the speed of light, millions of photons get shot at the structure)
any views of structural integrity renewal will be greatly appreciated chaps.
I don't have any experience of it myself, but at one stage the transmission guys were talking about using cryogenic hardening on the diff internals to get it to take the torque. After investigation they advised against it because as well as hardening, it also makes the material more brittle. It would have lasted longer but been more vulnerable to catastrophic failure. Presumably in your case hardness is not the problem, it is mainly strength and stiffness you are after?
I reckon it is pretty much a more effective method of quenching. Greater dT and so the effect would be more pronounced. Sounds like it could be a good one. BUT. Cooling from a higher temperature would achieve similar ends. That is where your stuff would get warped though. So, a low temperature quench which would be kind to your tolerances. Basicall like a pseudo forging rather than a straight cast.
Photon banging sounds like a load of shite.
Photon banging sounds like a load of shite.
but it effects cooling, bugger!The thing about aluminium is that it will expand as it gets hotter, like most metals, but its expansion is greater than steel, but aluminium starts at its strongest at 0 degrees and gets generally weaker as temperature rises. Expanding aluminium on and off apparently creates e-carbides or something in the molecular structure which can build up increasing the chance of cracks forming etc., by cryogenic treatment, it has shown that e-carbides are destroyed and molecular structure becomes more constant again. A single cryogenic treatment supposedly should last 10,000 expansion cycles or therein.
GreenV8s, I hear you, they have different cryo-methods I believe, one is to prevent the brittle effect, a more costly and timely process but been proven to perfection, Cryo techniques are employed by Nascar, to what extent remains a secret though
GreenV8s, I hear you, they have different cryo-methods I believe, one is to prevent the brittle effect, a more costly and timely process but been proven to perfection, Cryo techniques are employed by Nascar, to what extent remains a secret though
I think the trick with block design is to minimise distortion, this is much harder than simply strengthening or stiffening the block. Sometimes adding stiffness can make things worse rather than better, particularly where bore distortion is concerned. I remember hearing that the Cerbera engine is an open face design where the blocks are effectively stabilised by the heads. Perhaps there are benefits, but it would seem to compromise the stiffness of the block which may not be what you want in your case. Anyway, no doubt your engine specialists are on the case.
The process must be combined with chemicals at raised temperatures, mere cryogenic temps would not do much, apart from making the lattice more brittle at that temperature.
I'm going to have a look and see.
There you go www.cryogenicsinternational.com/informat.htm
Sounds great. What a brilliant idea.
>> Edited by love machine on Sunday 2nd January 18:18
I'm going to have a look and see.
There you go www.cryogenicsinternational.com/informat.htm
Sounds great. What a brilliant idea.
>> Edited by love machine on Sunday 2nd January 18:18
what is it you are trying to do? there are loads of coatings going around, but i have never heard of these. what do these coatings/treatments actualy give you? is there already people out there that can offer the same advatages for less (using a diffrent method)?
cheramic coatings can increase the robustness of an engine by huge amounts (ie much les prone to det.). And self lubrictaing coatings are said to increase the life of valve springs by 3 times!
I have also heard os some guys in the US part filling there engines with some stuff to stiffen them. should imagine its like chemical metal and sets rock hard but not sure.
thanks Chris.
PS. if these treatments do work then cool. but how much do they cost?
cheramic coatings can increase the robustness of an engine by huge amounts (ie much les prone to det.). And self lubrictaing coatings are said to increase the life of valve springs by 3 times!
I have also heard os some guys in the US part filling there engines with some stuff to stiffen them. should imagine its like chemical metal and sets rock hard but not sure.
thanks Chris.
PS. if these treatments do work then cool. but how much do they cost?
It depends what you are trying to wring out of a particular engine. If block stiffness is an issue and there is no alternative, a thermal/or lack of, treatment will most certainly eliminate stresses. Also radiusing corners, deburring, etc, etc.
There is quite a lot of crap on the market but some of the treatments/processes represent little in gains. Depends what you ar eprepared to spend though.
There is quite a lot of crap on the market but some of the treatments/processes represent little in gains. Depends what you ar eprepared to spend though.
was reading on the HOT ROD web site about these coatings. a guy in the business they where talking to siad that it will make an engine much more robust. they hasd an ilistration of two forged pistons, one coated and the other not. thay said that both where put through the same lean running conditions. the forged piston was a total mess and the coated one was fine, it looked brand new! also there arew people coating the whole of the conbustion chamber. they recon you can up the comp. ratio by 1 point when running N/A.
also alot of builders are strating to coat the bearings over in the states to. makes scence if you think about it. a low friction film will help reduce friction and help provent damage when there is an oil starvation.
i def think these coatings/treatments are a good idea though. just need to get more people into using them so that some quality suppliers can come to the top of the market.
thanks Chris.
also alot of builders are strating to coat the bearings over in the states to. makes scence if you think about it. a low friction film will help reduce friction and help provent damage when there is an oil starvation.
i def think these coatings/treatments are a good idea though. just need to get more people into using them so that some quality suppliers can come to the top of the market.
thanks Chris.
I understand that filling the water jacket of SB Chevys is quite common. According to the David Vizard book I have you can fill up to the bottom of the core plugs (1/3rd) before you affect the cooling performance of the engine. This helps to stiffen the block and help get the oil up to temperature better. The drag racers fill it all the way up because they only run the engine for a short period.
As far as I am aware the stuff is a bit like concrete (but hopefully a bit more inert chemically).
As far as I am aware the stuff is a bit like concrete (but hopefully a bit more inert chemically).
Filling in the tvr block might not be all that bad an idea. It would certainly offer a lot of support to the liners and coolant could still flow around the top half of the casing. Most of the high temps will be above the ringpack, right at the top of the liner. Here bridging pegs could be welded in place if required which would connect the outside of the liner to the inside wall of the block casing and then the block could be skimmed to tidy it up.
Boosted.
Boosted.
love machine said:
The process must be combined with chemicals at raised temperatures, mere cryogenic temps would not do much, apart from making the lattice more brittle at that temperature.
I'm going to have a look and see.
There you go www.cryogenicsinternational.com/informat.htm
Sounds great. What a brilliant idea.
>> Edited by love machine on Sunday 2nd January 18:18
I'm a bit dubious about the practicalities of low temp processing.
One of my course mates at Uni (Material Engineering)was working on low temp processing of steel and aluminium. From what I recall the theory was sound but was let down by the cost and time implications made it unviable in most applications - mainly due to existing processing and engineering solutions being more than adequate.
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