engine management systems
Discussion
How deep is your pocket.
I have the DTA Ex8 on the 520 and it has been reliable and no problems. I have only adjusted the mapping twice and that was cure a startup flooding issue as the mapping is critical on my engine and I do not want to disturb it once it has been set up. The software was easy to use.
The main costs are actually making the wiring loom and then plumbing it into the existing one. I would recommend making a new loom and replacing the old one as the wiring is a bit different and you can test the loom in the comfort of your own home. This can get expensive with these looms easily costing several hundred pound. Don't skimp is the best advice I can give or you will have horrendous reliability problems.
The DTA systems also have full ignition mapping and the ignition system may need a bit of a change. I have a completely distributor less system with multiple coils and no distributor. The DTA takes care of everything.
If you are going to spend zillions on the engine then whats an extra grand or two and yes they are good systems. Will it get any more out of an existing engine? No, not really as a Mark Adams chipped ECU gets pretty close anyway.
All depends on what you wnat to do and how deep is your pocket.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
I have the DTA Ex8 on the 520 and it has been reliable and no problems. I have only adjusted the mapping twice and that was cure a startup flooding issue as the mapping is critical on my engine and I do not want to disturb it once it has been set up. The software was easy to use.
The main costs are actually making the wiring loom and then plumbing it into the existing one. I would recommend making a new loom and replacing the old one as the wiring is a bit different and you can test the loom in the comfort of your own home. This can get expensive with these looms easily costing several hundred pound. Don't skimp is the best advice I can give or you will have horrendous reliability problems.
The DTA systems also have full ignition mapping and the ignition system may need a bit of a change. I have a completely distributor less system with multiple coils and no distributor. The DTA takes care of everything.
If you are going to spend zillions on the engine then whats an extra grand or two and yes they are good systems. Will it get any more out of an existing engine? No, not really as a Mark Adams chipped ECU gets pretty close anyway.
All depends on what you wnat to do and how deep is your pocket.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
you don't have to go to the complexity of DTA , I fitted an Emerald system to a chim 4 litre, completely syd except for not cats (which apparently makes very little difference on a 4 litre) and that peaked at 216bhp. You can use twin coils if you want, but I went the easy / cheap route and just locked the distributor. it's fully mappable, rev sites are only every 500 revs but that's enough and the best part is the price .. 650 pounds. bargain. Loom was a piece of pi*s to do - I just spliced into the existing loom - everything is left in place so can be swapped back to the original ecu in seconds. I did the initial mapping on the road, got the fuelling to within 5-8% but getting the ignition right was where the gains were to be had .. for that reason I can't see how just a lucas ecu fuelling rechip can be considered good value .. I've seen people paying 700 pounds for a rolling road tune which is very expensive seeing as you're still stuck with the clockwork advance weights but may have incorporated some diagnostic time also (don't forget you pay for mark adams time AND the rollers - although i must say I've only ever heard very very good things said about Mark so he must be one of the best in his field). mapping gains you power AND economy. If you get it somewhere near on the road then the time on the rollers is minimal - the chim was on for maybe 3 hours actual mapping time.
Go for it.
Joolz.
Go for it.
Joolz.
The economics are:
Mark Adams rechip is 350 for the new programmable chip.
Plus set up time which is usually an hour or two which is around 650. Big bills happen when the car has faults and needs these sorting out before hand.
Subsequent sessions and mods work out at about 125 an hour in rolling road.
Compare this to the Emerald system which is £650 to start. Then there is the time to splice and make the lead and I suspect that wasn't done in 30 mins Joolz (or for free now you are an business entrepreneur)
and then there is the setup time assuming you know what you are doing. I know of a one Suburu that was setup on the road where the wrong button was pressed on the setup computer, screwed up something and the engine went bang...
So I think if you add up the costs the Emerald system or any other one for that matter is going to be more expensive because of the additional time it takes to fit and setup the thing.
As with any engine mod take the original price and double it...
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Mark Adams rechip is 350 for the new programmable chip.
Plus set up time which is usually an hour or two which is around 650. Big bills happen when the car has faults and needs these sorting out before hand.
Subsequent sessions and mods work out at about 125 an hour in rolling road.
Compare this to the Emerald system which is £650 to start. Then there is the time to splice and make the lead and I suspect that wasn't done in 30 mins Joolz (or for free now you are an business entrepreneur)
and then there is the setup time assuming you know what you are doing. I know of a one Suburu that was setup on the road where the wrong button was pressed on the setup computer, screwed up something and the engine went bang... So I think if you add up the costs the Emerald system or any other one for that matter is going to be more expensive because of the additional time it takes to fit and setup the thing.
As with any engine mod take the original price and double it...
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Hi Steve.
For sure the set-up costs for going programmable are higher than just a rechip, but the chip alone is 350 pounds then you have a few hours set-up? .. 650 pounds you say? .. wow - and you still can't get the ignition right which where the BIG gains are to be had. seems incredibly poor value for money to me.
operator error on mapping is a big worry, you can only put your trust in whoever does the work, go on recommendation and previous results, they are the best guides and in that respect Mark Adams cannot be faulted from what i have heard. People rave about him.
the emerald loom is really easy to make up, maybe two hours for anyone half competent at electrics, certainly a DIY prospect for any home mechanic - I took longer than that over mine cos I wanted to quadruple check everything, but that's just me (!).. haha.
I still reckon full management is by far the best value you can spend, you gain everywhere (repsonse, power, economy) and lose nothing - except the airflow meter of course!
For sure the set-up costs for going programmable are higher than just a rechip, but the chip alone is 350 pounds then you have a few hours set-up? .. 650 pounds you say? .. wow - and you still can't get the ignition right which where the BIG gains are to be had. seems incredibly poor value for money to me.
operator error on mapping is a big worry, you can only put your trust in whoever does the work, go on recommendation and previous results, they are the best guides and in that respect Mark Adams cannot be faulted from what i have heard. People rave about him.
the emerald loom is really easy to make up, maybe two hours for anyone half competent at electrics, certainly a DIY prospect for any home mechanic - I took longer than that over mine cos I wanted to quadruple check everything, but that's just me (!).. haha.
I still reckon full management is by far the best value you can spend, you gain everywhere (repsonse, power, economy) and lose nothing - except the airflow meter of course!
I also quadruple checked the trcation control loom and when I spliced into the Wedges loom. Took 6 hours before I felt confident that nothing would go wrong. Worked first time though.
Don't diagree about the advantages and the more extreme the engine the more you need to go that route but again the setting up has to be done by someone who knows what they are doing otherwise the engine can get lunched. That to me indicates paying someone else to do it. That starts to push up the costs.
Mark is excellent and knows how to get every last drop out of the standard ECU set up.
Anyway it is swings and rounbdabouts like most things.
Steve
Don't diagree about the advantages and the more extreme the engine the more you need to go that route but again the setting up has to be done by someone who knows what they are doing otherwise the engine can get lunched. That to me indicates paying someone else to do it. That starts to push up the costs.
Mark is excellent and knows how to get every last drop out of the standard ECU set up.
Anyway it is swings and rounbdabouts like most things.
Steve
quote:Steve, having upgraded the brakes I am now considering the ACT plenum & throttle body along with a mark Adams chip and rolling-road set-up session (is that a chip and charge?
Mark Adams rechip is 350 for the new programmable chip. Plus set up time which is usually an hour or two which is around 650. Big bills happen when the car has faults and needs these sorting out before hand.
Subsequent sessions and mods work out at about 125 an hour in rolling road.
) Does your comment imply that subsequent annual services will have to include a rolling-road session? Rich...
quote:
Hi Steve.
For sure the set-up costs for going programmable are higher than just a rechip, but the chip alone is 350 pounds then you have a few hours set-up? .. 650 pounds you say?
Just re-read this...
The 650 includes the 350 for the chip... Not 650 on top of 350... unless the car is so screwed up it takes them a whole day and lots of bits to get sorted...
Steve
>> Edited by shpub on Wednesday 31st July 11:28
quote:
Steve, having upgraded the brakes I am now considering the ACT plenum & throttle body along with a mark Adams chip and rolling-road set-up session (is that a chip and charge?
Does your comment imply that subsequent annual services will have to include a rolling-road session? Rich...
If anything gets changed that can alter the tuning, cam, distributor etc, then yes I would recommend it.
About an hour should be enough.
Just had a new cam on the Griff 500. Previous engine builder (won't mention names but quite well respected) had not used any preload shims and the rocker arm seats had disintegrated and made the cam profile different for every lobe. Fortunately Tower View spotted this when they were doing the head gaskets. I saw the bits last night and was amazed at the damage/wear. So yes I'll get the car set up again with Mr Adams.
Steve
Thanks for the comments,I've spoken to Joolz(and Dave Walker at Emerald) at some length on this subject,and the DTA system looks the best long term solution as it removes the dizzy completely,I believe the emerald system retains it .The use of a sensor and 60 tooth wheel on the crank should improve timing at higher revs over a distributor based system.I'll do abit more research on the pros and cons and speak to you later (I hope you'll be helping set the thing up)it looks like been a winter project so time is not an issue,time taken fitting the system along with a dedicated loom seems to be the key to a successful install and long term reliability which ever system is used.
I can see that these systems are more flexible/configurable than the original engine managment system + distributor and would therefore be of benefit if you're trying to wring the maximum performance out of an engine for racing (or for fun 
). But what kind of absolute changes can be achieved in the power curve compared to a bog standard system? Steve, Jools, anyone ... do you guys have any before/after data you could quote to illustrate the performance hike?
>> Edited by ATG on Wednesday 31st July 12:42
). But what kind of absolute changes can be achieved in the power curve compared to a bog standard system? Steve, Jools, anyone ... do you guys have any before/after data you could quote to illustrate the performance hike? >> Edited by ATG on Wednesday 31st July 12:42
...And given that the standard car is hardly slow, how much value is there in it? My 4.3HC Chim supposedly kicks out 280bhp, although I understand that factory figures are notoriously optimistic - just what kind of REAL gain could I expect if I start going down this route. Lets say a real 250bhp now, maybe 275lb ft, what kind of gain could I expect with about £1k ? And I would be concerned about reliablity - the factory TVR/Rover V8's are sitting around the 65-70BHP per litre mark, which I like to think is of great benefit to longevity; is there enough strength in the unit to start going into the 80-85bhp/ltr mark but still run for 60-70k ?
I have it on the 520 because I was told that if I wanted to have my engine to be reliable and not lunch itself, I needed a more controllable injection system. When the engine costs thousands, what is a little more debt... Anyway you have two of most organs... The engine is up at the 400 bhp 400lb/ft sih level now. Couldn't get that with the standard ECU irrespective of how it was chipped.
Mark Adams tuned my 3.9 engine that was originally in the 520 and the engine went from 212 to 226 bhp and yes that was really signifcant. With a bigger plenum, injectors and Jag air flow meter and a rechip, we got around 250 bhp.
On their own they will gain a little but the full benefit is not until you start tweeking the metal and carbon fibre bits in the engine. As for reliability, the 3.9 engine did about 60 k miles and apart from an ignition module fault didn't miss a beat despite the 150 sprints and about 50 or so track/test days it did.
If you keep the mods within reason and look after the car, the reliability is not an issue. It also depends on the quality of the work done but I have had modded engines for some time and it is not a problem. However, I suspect I have a lot more knowledge and experience on recognising any danger signs and knowing how to moddle coddle them.
There are power graphs up on Tower Views site.
www.t-v-r-services.co.uk
Steve
Mark Adams tuned my 3.9 engine that was originally in the 520 and the engine went from 212 to 226 bhp and yes that was really signifcant. With a bigger plenum, injectors and Jag air flow meter and a rechip, we got around 250 bhp.
On their own they will gain a little but the full benefit is not until you start tweeking the metal and carbon fibre bits in the engine. As for reliability, the 3.9 engine did about 60 k miles and apart from an ignition module fault didn't miss a beat despite the 150 sprints and about 50 or so track/test days it did.
If you keep the mods within reason and look after the car, the reliability is not an issue. It also depends on the quality of the work done but I have had modded engines for some time and it is not a problem. However, I suspect I have a lot more knowledge and experience on recognising any danger signs and knowing how to moddle coddle them.
There are power graphs up on Tower Views site.
www.t-v-r-services.co.uk
Steve
Just to add my own two pence, I too run an emerald system with the dizzy locked up mainly because of the cost of other systems. As a point not to be over looked is that the DTA system used to need a specialist programming module at an additional 300 quid cost if you wanted to map it yourself. This may no longer be the case but when I looked at what was available (4 years ago) the DTA was about 500 quid more (inc programmer) than the Emerald which can get by on a weedy 386 laptop (which is what I had).
Also Emerald are in the process of upgrading their system so that it'll feature self learning /mapping closed loop fuelling, traction control, data logging, ancillary control function (air-con, idle speed motors) this in in addition to the current features:
Standard 3D maps with throttle position or manifold pressure for load input for sparks and fuel
Idle speed control
Closed loop fuelling
Air and water temp correction for spark and fuel
acceleration enrichement
and probably some other stuff I've forgotten about.
As you can see I'm a fan of their work.
Matt
Also Emerald are in the process of upgrading their system so that it'll feature self learning /mapping closed loop fuelling, traction control, data logging, ancillary control function (air-con, idle speed motors) this in in addition to the current features:
Standard 3D maps with throttle position or manifold pressure for load input for sparks and fuel
Idle speed control
Closed loop fuelling
Air and water temp correction for spark and fuel
acceleration enrichement
and probably some other stuff I've forgotten about.
As you can see I'm a fan of their work.
Matt
Hmmmm.... shouldn't say this, what with me being a conservative old fogey and liking my engines to go on forever, but I like the sound of the Emerald system. Of course I know my engine builder is shit hot so I have ne worries there :-) and he's also a dab hand at electronics to boot. Ahem. Where was I?
Oh yes.... my 390 had done 102K when I pulled it apart and found it was actually looking a little sorry for itself. However, I had no idea there were any probs, so longevity is obviously not really an issue: I don't believe for one minute that the dozen or so previous owners had done anythig other than thrash the tits off this engine, regardless of how much money was spent on the car. Certainly fat bloke who owned it before me admitted to several thrapes up and down Brunty or some such place.
So, to get back to the Emerald: it would be almost as expensive to replace a blown standard ECU as fit an Emerald, so sounds like a good deal to me. If only I was in IT or wrote books about TVRs, I could work an extra half hour one night and buy one....;-D
Ian
Oh yes.... my 390 had done 102K when I pulled it apart and found it was actually looking a little sorry for itself. However, I had no idea there were any probs, so longevity is obviously not really an issue: I don't believe for one minute that the dozen or so previous owners had done anythig other than thrash the tits off this engine, regardless of how much money was spent on the car. Certainly fat bloke who owned it before me admitted to several thrapes up and down Brunty or some such place.
So, to get back to the Emerald: it would be almost as expensive to replace a blown standard ECU as fit an Emerald, so sounds like a good deal to me. If only I was in IT or wrote books about TVRs, I could work an extra half hour one night and buy one....;-D
Ian
The Emerald System is running fine in the Chim, and as soon as i've got some more dosh the dissy is goin gin the bin, more to simplify the system than anything else.
The Power outputs were wierd on two previous occasions the car has showed more power on ( different) rollers but the car is quicker against the clock. i've not had a chance to test on my accelerometer yet but that should give a good comparison.
when we were on the rollers in chesterfield we had to keep stopping when the temp in the cell got above 30 degrees !!!
the car is also slightly more economical!!!! even with my driving...
im well impressed and reckon if i sold the old bits
ecu and airlow meter i could recoup most of the cost of the new ecu...
G
The Power outputs were wierd on two previous occasions the car has showed more power on ( different) rollers but the car is quicker against the clock. i've not had a chance to test on my accelerometer yet but that should give a good comparison.
when we were on the rollers in chesterfield we had to keep stopping when the temp in the cell got above 30 degrees !!!
the car is also slightly more economical!!!! even with my driving...
im well impressed and reckon if i sold the old bits
ecu and airlow meter i could recoup most of the cost of the new ecu...
G
Except that ECUs can be had for around £200 exchange and the Emerald system or any other is at least twice that. And of course there is all that other time and effort and money needed to install it and set it up.
It is just like any other modification. Take the price of the bit you want to add and you will spend twice that in the end - either in paying someone or spending the time doing it yourself. Doesn't mean it is cost effective it just depends on what you think is a cost.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
(who is now going to pay himself £50 an hour when working on his cars to get the dosh to buy the go faster bits in the first place... I've been told there is a flaw somewhere...)
It is just like any other modification. Take the price of the bit you want to add and you will spend twice that in the end - either in paying someone or spending the time doing it yourself. Doesn't mean it is cost effective it just depends on what you think is a cost.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
(who is now going to pay himself £50 an hour when working on his cars to get the dosh to buy the go faster bits in the first place... I've been told there is a flaw somewhere...)
Just back from hols and looks like I've missed an interesting thread. May seem a silly question, but have you guys thought seriously about using SUs? Some disadvantages of course, but some pretty significant advantages too. For example, almost nil set-up time, no sensors to malfunction, vastly improved mixture preparation, upstream charge cooling, low fuel pressure/flow rate requirements and tolerant of temporary undersupply. Setup costs would be crippling if you wanted to go into production, but as a one-off?
Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff