Help me choose the air fuel meter!
Discussion
I need an air/fuel mixture. ANd i need a cheap one.
As its only going to narrow band, then its never really going to accurately tell me wht the score is. I reckon the closest it will get is "Rich, OK, Lean" but never by how much.
Therefore in that respect i really only need three LEDs. I have looked through demon tweeks and they have two lumenition ones there that are ok-ish...
they are:
www.rallynuts.com/motorsport/Lumenition_428/Lumenition_10_LED_Air_Fuel_Ratio_Meter_709.asp
www.rallynuts.com/motorsport/Lumenition_428/Lumenition_19_LED_Air_Fuel_Ratio_Meter_708.asp
I was going for the cheapest. Its nice and simple, but then i keep thinking i should maybe go for the other one as its only £9.0 more.
Things is, although i don't really know how much about these models, i know most meters of this type are pretty in accurate outside of a certain range. SO why the hell can't i choose one?
Grrr!
Anyone actually use one?
As its only going to narrow band, then its never really going to accurately tell me wht the score is. I reckon the closest it will get is "Rich, OK, Lean" but never by how much.
Therefore in that respect i really only need three LEDs. I have looked through demon tweeks and they have two lumenition ones there that are ok-ish...
they are:
www.rallynuts.com/motorsport/Lumenition_428/Lumenition_10_LED_Air_Fuel_Ratio_Meter_709.asp
www.rallynuts.com/motorsport/Lumenition_428/Lumenition_19_LED_Air_Fuel_Ratio_Meter_708.asp
I was going for the cheapest. Its nice and simple, but then i keep thinking i should maybe go for the other one as its only £9.0 more.
Things is, although i don't really know how much about these models, i know most meters of this type are pretty in accurate outside of a certain range. SO why the hell can't i choose one?
Grrr!
Anyone actually use one?
What a total ripp off. For that price you could nearly buy a wideband unit.
This is the cheapest complete wideband unit Ive comea across. It also replicates the 0-1v output, so your ecu wont log a fault if you dump the old narrowband sensor.
www.plxdevices.com/M-Series_productinfo.htm
Go for the M-300 I think it works out at around £200
Or if you can DIY, here is a very simple narrowband AFR meter, basically the same as the lumenition.
Jaycar electronics in OZ offer this for around £15 including postage. Thats as cheap as it gets.
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5195&CATID=25&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=347
Or here is another, still narrowband, but a better display unit, for slightly more money.
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5300&CATID=25&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=347
Check their DIY section
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?FORM=CAT
Or there is the DIY build it yourself Wideband unit from Australia also. They may still offer built units too.
www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
Or some different units can be bought from...
www.horsepowerfreaks.com/
Check under 'Electronics/Wideband Kits'
There are many others too Im sure. How Lumenition, or any other suppliers can justify such prices for some of their narrowband units is beyond me.
>> Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 3rd July 12:10
This is the cheapest complete wideband unit Ive comea across. It also replicates the 0-1v output, so your ecu wont log a fault if you dump the old narrowband sensor.
www.plxdevices.com/M-Series_productinfo.htm
Go for the M-300 I think it works out at around £200
Or if you can DIY, here is a very simple narrowband AFR meter, basically the same as the lumenition.
Jaycar electronics in OZ offer this for around £15 including postage. Thats as cheap as it gets.
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5195&CATID=25&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=347
Or here is another, still narrowband, but a better display unit, for slightly more money.
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5300&CATID=25&keywords=&SPECIAL=&form=CAT&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=&Keyword2=&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=347
Check their DIY section
http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?FORM=CAT
Or there is the DIY build it yourself Wideband unit from Australia also. They may still offer built units too.
www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
Or some different units can be bought from...
www.horsepowerfreaks.com/
Check under 'Electronics/Wideband Kits'
There are many others too Im sure. How Lumenition, or any other suppliers can justify such prices for some of their narrowband units is beyond me.
>> Edited by stevieturbo on Saturday 3rd July 12:10
I had better change my tact! I think the narrow band sensors may be adequate for what you're trying to do. At least on the ones I looked at, the sensor switches state over such a narrow lambda range that it effectively has a binary output 'rich' or 'lean'. In cars where the mixture is being controlled by closed loop feedback based on the sensor readings, the lambda value will cycle between rich and lean and you can tell from the mark/space ratio on the signal what the average lambda reading is. But in your case the engine is running open loop and will typically be a long way off lambda 1 most of the time. But if you're just using the lambda reading as a warning of underfuelling, all you really care about is seeing a lean condition on load lasting for longer than a second or so, and I would have thought a narrow band sensor would enable you to do this. Presumably you're running a straight needle since the s/c won't provide any induction tuning pulses?
GV8S
Do you mean a straight needle as in even-taper down its length? In that repect yes it is, but i haven't got the thing running very well yet and may have to resort to some re-profiling...
Narrow band was really all i thought of using but there's a big difference between £108 for the lumenition and £15 for the one above!
Which ones did you look at? Halmeter AF30 has been recommended but i can't find it here, and its priceier than the lumeniton. I just need a quick marker really to get to the rolling road...
Do you mean a straight needle as in even-taper down its length? In that repect yes it is, but i haven't got the thing running very well yet and may have to resort to some re-profiling...
Narrow band was really all i thought of using but there's a big difference between £108 for the lumenition and £15 for the one above!
Which ones did you look at? Halmeter AF30 has been recommended but i can't find it here, and its priceier than the lumeniton. I just need a quick marker really to get to the rolling road...
If you really want the cheapest possible way of measuring AFR's simply attach a digital multimeter to the sensor output.
Here is a graph showing AFR's vs Voltage output
www.plxdevices.com/M-Series-Controllers/NarrowbandOutputGraph.jpg
There are many number of narrowband AFR displays, but if you understand how they work, then you can successfully use them to tune. But do be very aware that you need to play safe, and always err on the rich side fo things.
The output will also vary with temperature, when they get hot they read wrong too.
Considering you were already thinking of spending £160+ on the Lumenition, then pay a little more and go wideband. No question about it.
Here is a graph showing AFR's vs Voltage output
www.plxdevices.com/M-Series-Controllers/NarrowbandOutputGraph.jpg
There are many number of narrowband AFR displays, but if you understand how they work, then you can successfully use them to tune. But do be very aware that you need to play safe, and always err on the rich side fo things.
The output will also vary with temperature, when they get hot they read wrong too.
Considering you were already thinking of spending £160+ on the Lumenition, then pay a little more and go wideband. No question about it.
Only £108 actually for the lumention. 
Whilst i fully agree that £200 on wideband is better altogether, i think i'd rather pay £15 for the narrow band. Except for the fact i kind of need it *now*... 
Money tight as i have other things as well as the supercharging going on at the moment and my wallet is feeling like its made of margarine!
Whilst i fully agree that £200 on wideband is better altogether, i think i'd rather pay £15 for the narrow band. Except for the fact i kind of need it *now*... Money tight as i have other things as well as the supercharging going on at the moment and my wallet is feeling like its made of margarine!
Buffalo said:
GV8S
Do you mean a straight needle as in even-taper down its length?
Yes, thats what I mean. By the way if it's just for initial setup have you considered just using a colortune kit? I know professionals sneer at them, but they're cheap and simple and I can relate to that!
A colortune is only useful at idle, with the car stationary and you looking at it.
Monitoring Lambda sensor voltages can be done at all times, and most importantly at WOT, which is what you want.
Cheapest quickest way is a digital voltmeter. Aim for around 0.85 volts at full throttle, no less. That should give you a good safe full power mixture. ( although I notice the graph I posted a link to doesnt seem to suggest this.....
All any of the narrowband LED displays do, is display the voltage between 0-1v with their LED's. Nothing more.
Monitoring Lambda sensor voltages can be done at all times, and most importantly at WOT, which is what you want.
Cheapest quickest way is a digital voltmeter. Aim for around 0.85 volts at full throttle, no less. That should give you a good safe full power mixture. ( although I notice the graph I posted a link to doesnt seem to suggest this.....
All any of the narrowband LED displays do, is display the voltage between 0-1v with their LED's. Nothing more.
I second what Stevie says.
Also look in the Summit online catalogue and see what they have. I bought an Edelbrock unit for $100 and it's been fine. It has plenty of lights and seems to work fine. I set it up lean for cruise and rich for hard accelleration with turbo's. I will get a wide band later on but this unit gave me plenty of reassurance that fuelling was ok.
Also look in the Summit online catalogue and see what they have. I bought an Edelbrock unit for $100 and it's been fine. It has plenty of lights and seems to work fine. I set it up lean for cruise and rich for hard accelleration with turbo's. I will get a wide band later on but this unit gave me plenty of reassurance that fuelling was ok.
The parts to make your own guage cost about £10 from maplins. The sensor itself can be scored of ebay for about £20 or go to the scrapyard and pull any 3 or 4 wire lambda sensor of a car. Dont get a 1 wire unheater sensor as they cool down at idle.
Drawing is here:
<a href="http://www.students.tut.fi/~eppu/dev/EGO-bar.html">www.students.tut.fi/~eppu/dev/EGO-bar.html</a> or
www.ffp-motorsport.com/tuning/o2meter.php
or google for "lm3914 and lambda" you will loads of diagrams, including 20led version.
Real steel also sell a std dashboard guage for about 60 quid.
I used one initially to tune my edelbrock carb on my v8, give quite an insight into whats going on. On an injected car it will just rapidly flicker between rich and lean (aka stoic).
You will quickly realise that you want to know more information - Wide band is your answer.
Ive now got a tech-edge wide-band unit, which cost me £120 (diy-assembly) - this tells you the exact afr.
One of the chaps on the uk megasquirt list usually keeps two different brands of wide bands in "stock" at good prices.
Look right at the bottom of this page:
www.mez.co.uk/ms8.html
for a picture of what my wideband kit looks like.
Eliot.
>> Edited by eliot on Friday 9th July 09:53
>> Edited by eliot on Friday 9th July 09:56
Drawing is here:
<a href="http://www.students.tut.fi/~eppu/dev/EGO-bar.html">www.students.tut.fi/~eppu/dev/EGO-bar.html</a> or
www.ffp-motorsport.com/tuning/o2meter.php
or google for "lm3914 and lambda" you will loads of diagrams, including 20led version.
Real steel also sell a std dashboard guage for about 60 quid.
I used one initially to tune my edelbrock carb on my v8, give quite an insight into whats going on. On an injected car it will just rapidly flicker between rich and lean (aka stoic).
You will quickly realise that you want to know more information - Wide band is your answer.
Ive now got a tech-edge wide-band unit, which cost me £120 (diy-assembly) - this tells you the exact afr.
One of the chaps on the uk megasquirt list usually keeps two different brands of wide bands in "stock" at good prices.
Look right at the bottom of this page:
www.mez.co.uk/ms8.html
for a picture of what my wideband kit looks like.
Eliot.
>> Edited by eliot on Friday 9th July 09:53
>> Edited by eliot on Friday 9th July 09:56
efi will only travel from rich/lean during closed loop, part throttle operation in a factory car.
During open loop, it will read correctly.
The DIY narrowband kit from Jaycar is the same LM4914 build, but it saves you looking for the seperate parts.
Wideband is the only way to go really if you are interested in tuning your car and actually making some power.
I would drive my car without it installed now.
During open loop, it will read correctly.
The DIY narrowband kit from Jaycar is the same LM4914 build, but it saves you looking for the seperate parts.
Wideband is the only way to go really if you are interested in tuning your car and actually making some power.
I would drive my car without it installed now.
Hi,
I would certainly not tune a supercharged car with a narrow band sensor, they are only any good at showing the stoichiometric point, 14.7AFR. This is totally useless for tuning for power or for going rich when in boost. I'm heavily involved with the Megasquirt stuff and the amount of people who try to tune with a narrow band and only end up getting a wide band to get the job done right. Having tuned my supercharged engine with a wide band I wouldn't have risked it with a narrow band, the output is so erratic it will be vertually impossible to use. Look here for a wideband sensor setup, £150 http://wbo2.com
Phil
I would certainly not tune a supercharged car with a narrow band sensor, they are only any good at showing the stoichiometric point, 14.7AFR. This is totally useless for tuning for power or for going rich when in boost. I'm heavily involved with the Megasquirt stuff and the amount of people who try to tune with a narrow band and only end up getting a wide band to get the job done right. Having tuned my supercharged engine with a wide band I wouldn't have risked it with a narrow band, the output is so erratic it will be vertually impossible to use. Look here for a wideband sensor setup, £150 http://wbo2.com
Phil
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