Older supercars, warranties and engine / gearbox failures
Discussion
Hello.
Really interested to canvass the opinions of fellow PHers and their experiences.
Fairly regular supercar owner. Owned a host of 360 and 430 over the last few years. Imo they are about the apex of supercar value and what you want from these cars.
But... Of late, and I am getting on a bit now..! It's struck me that the risks attached to owning one of these cars is particularly high, especially if there's no warranty. I've been struggling to pull the trigger on buying another one precisely for this reason.
I realise people will tell me "the engines are strong / they are more reliable cars than they used to be" but engine failures still happen. And a Ferrari engine rebuild is c. £40,000... Let alone more common DCT failures in slightly newer models (458, Huracan etc)
Given these are older cars now, warranties are a particularly tricky issue. Most generic warranty companies won't cover them and any dealer warranty might be limited to something like a £5,000 claim limit which obviously only scrapes the sides of a full rebuild repair.
So how do people play it? How many are currently driving these cars with absolutely no warranty cover (as I did)? How many people have suffered major failures? And are there smaller independent companies out there willing to offer warranties on these older cars? I think Porsche only covers for 15 years, so soon the average GT3 could become a major liability to own.
All thoughts welcome!
Really interested to canvass the opinions of fellow PHers and their experiences.
Fairly regular supercar owner. Owned a host of 360 and 430 over the last few years. Imo they are about the apex of supercar value and what you want from these cars.
But... Of late, and I am getting on a bit now..! It's struck me that the risks attached to owning one of these cars is particularly high, especially if there's no warranty. I've been struggling to pull the trigger on buying another one precisely for this reason.
I realise people will tell me "the engines are strong / they are more reliable cars than they used to be" but engine failures still happen. And a Ferrari engine rebuild is c. £40,000... Let alone more common DCT failures in slightly newer models (458, Huracan etc)
Given these are older cars now, warranties are a particularly tricky issue. Most generic warranty companies won't cover them and any dealer warranty might be limited to something like a £5,000 claim limit which obviously only scrapes the sides of a full rebuild repair.
So how do people play it? How many are currently driving these cars with absolutely no warranty cover (as I did)? How many people have suffered major failures? And are there smaller independent companies out there willing to offer warranties on these older cars? I think Porsche only covers for 15 years, so soon the average GT3 could become a major liability to own.
All thoughts welcome!
Never bothered with warranties.
360s have a known design weakness with the cam variations and the official fix..... Doesn't in my experience.
Bent valves on one bank. Originally I was told I needed complete engine strip and rebuild at a cost of £10-20k from an indy.
Another indy told me that was not necessary and that bank could be done with the engine in the car - so the original indy did that.
Needed new valves, head skim etc - cost me about £6k in total. This was around 2019.
I think it's very unlikely you would ever need a 'new engine' for a 360 / 430.
360s have a known design weakness with the cam variations and the official fix..... Doesn't in my experience.
Bent valves on one bank. Originally I was told I needed complete engine strip and rebuild at a cost of £10-20k from an indy.
Another indy told me that was not necessary and that bank could be done with the engine in the car - so the original indy did that.
Needed new valves, head skim etc - cost me about £6k in total. This was around 2019.
I think it's very unlikely you would ever need a 'new engine' for a 360 / 430.
Cheers for the post
Unfortunately, I've heard con rods and bearings can go in the 430 engine. Especially if it's used hard, which is really what most people will be doing with these cars.
Yes, variators an issue for both cars, but don't (I think) cause engine damage per se, they are just an expensive fix.. Unless you're saying the variators caused your top end damage?
Even basic gearbox internals work is going to go over any £5k claim limit.
Having to find breaker engines because rebuild quotes are so high is not unheard of.. I can't imagine anyone buying fairly entry-level Ferraris wants that on their plate! :/
Unfortunately, I've heard con rods and bearings can go in the 430 engine. Especially if it's used hard, which is really what most people will be doing with these cars.
Yes, variators an issue for both cars, but don't (I think) cause engine damage per se, they are just an expensive fix.. Unless you're saying the variators caused your top end damage?
Even basic gearbox internals work is going to go over any £5k claim limit.
Having to find breaker engines because rebuild quotes are so high is not unheard of.. I can't imagine anyone buying fairly entry-level Ferraris wants that on their plate! :/
Edited by 360430Lover on Saturday 12th April 10:36
I run without warranty (because the warranties are so limited) and put the warranty cost into a slush fund instead.
I'm currently £46k ahead and that's after spending £11k on shocks, a wheel bearing and sticky plastics remediation. Only the wheel bearing (£1.5k) would've been covered by the warranty.
DCT failures are a c.£7-10k fix (not £40k) so they're not the financial ruin that they're made out to be.
I'm currently £46k ahead and that's after spending £11k on shocks, a wheel bearing and sticky plastics remediation. Only the wheel bearing (£1.5k) would've been covered by the warranty.
DCT failures are a c.£7-10k fix (not £40k) so they're not the financial ruin that they're made out to be.
360430Lover said:
Yes, variators an issue for both cars, but don't (I think) cause engine damage per se, they are just an expensive fix.. Unless you're saying the variators caused your top end damage?
Yes - the variator snapped which meant the piston / valve timing was no longer controlled. Hence pistons met valves Edited by davek_964 on Saturday 12th April 12:49
Absolutely. And obviously plenty of people will go that route if they're not as stupid as I probably was in my 30s!
But I think those lucky enough to own one of these cars will tell you that they do offer something pretty special that basically can't be found anymore (I'd say a GT3 is the same ball park but we're talking a £90k+ car even today)
It kinda got me thinking.. Surely there's a company out there somewhere that could offer legitimate "classic supercar" - type warranties? Perhaps it could be a similar type of proposal to the Audi "named component" so let's say, simply the engine and gearbox. £2k a year? Surely this type of warranty would massively help sales of these cars? And as people are right to say - they are in the main quite reliable considering the nature of them - then it's likely going to pay off for whoever sets it up? I'm almost tempted myself!
I think these cars are slow sellers for this very reason. I think most prospective buyers are realistic enough to know there's going to be some maintenance involved, but to them be spanked with a major failure on top asks a lot from the average "entry-level" supercar buyer.
But I think those lucky enough to own one of these cars will tell you that they do offer something pretty special that basically can't be found anymore (I'd say a GT3 is the same ball park but we're talking a £90k+ car even today)
It kinda got me thinking.. Surely there's a company out there somewhere that could offer legitimate "classic supercar" - type warranties? Perhaps it could be a similar type of proposal to the Audi "named component" so let's say, simply the engine and gearbox. £2k a year? Surely this type of warranty would massively help sales of these cars? And as people are right to say - they are in the main quite reliable considering the nature of them - then it's likely going to pay off for whoever sets it up? I'm almost tempted myself!
I think these cars are slow sellers for this very reason. I think most prospective buyers are realistic enough to know there's going to be some maintenance involved, but to them be spanked with a major failure on top asks a lot from the average "entry-level" supercar buyer.
360430Lover said:
Sure. The gear teeth can snap in 458 DCT, too. That'll be more than just a sensor swap out.
For anyone in 458 territory, it'd seem insanity not to get a Power Warranty.
Why? I’ve just demonstrated to you that I’m ahead of Ferrari on my warranty costs and can fund more than just sensor failure. For anyone in 458 territory, it'd seem insanity not to get a Power Warranty.
Gear teeth stripping on the DCT is extremely rare so if you want to insure against that then go ahead. But if these low probability occurrences are high on your list of concerns then perhaps supercar ownership is not for you and as @johnnyreggae suggested, something newer and more affordable might suit?
Edited by ANOpax on Saturday 12th April 15:28
It's your choice to take risks. But there's currently not really options for those that don't want to..? And do we want these cars rotting because they are a nightmare to sell (trust me, I know..), or do we want them driven, with ownership as stress free as possible?
Remember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
Remember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
360430Lover said:
It's your choice to take risks. But there's currently not really options for those that don't want to..? And do we want these cars rotting because they are a nightmare to sell (trust me, I know..), or do we want them driven, with ownership as stress free as possible?
Remember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
Everything in life is a risk. Getting out of bed is a risk. Of course, sRemember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
t happens and when it does, it’s best to be financially and emotionally prepared for it. I’m surprised that you don’t take this approach as it’s the only way to survive supercar ownership and you’ve owned Ferraris before. But let me ask you this;
1 how much did you spend on warranty costs,
2 how much did you spend on repairs which weren’t covered under warranty
3 what was the cost of repairs performed under warranty
You also speak of personal experience with cars which are difficult to sell - can you elaborate on this? I understand the issue as the FF and V12 Lussos suffered from this for a long time due to PTU failure concerns but that’s now resolved. I would expect something similar in the 360/430 world as the independents have found affordable fixes for all the common issues. F355s are also starting to suffer from lack of parts availability so maintenance on those is potentially horrific too but it doesn’t seem to be affecting values much…
360430Lover said:
It's your choice to take risks. But there's currently not really options for those that don't want to..? And do we want these cars rotting because they are a nightmare to sell (trust me, I know..), or do we want them driven, with ownership as stress free as possible?
Remember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
funny you should mention "rotting", as rust would be my major concern with an old italian, and of course rust is even less uninsurableRemember, those with genuine "Ferrari money" at the very least will be buying an Approved 488. Very, very few people that wealthy will be looking at 360/430.
Six years without warranty so far. Never enters my mind to worry about it, just enjoy driving.
I suspect very few are actually driven hard. Unless you’re doing loads of track days. You don’t often see them going for it on the road, and our limits are so far below the cars capabilities.
This day and age I’d be more worried about a modern Porsche.
Even my McLarens warranty work last year would have been less than the warranty cost. And they’re supposed to literally fall apart as soon as you look at them
I suspect very few are actually driven hard. Unless you’re doing loads of track days. You don’t often see them going for it on the road, and our limits are so far below the cars capabilities.
This day and age I’d be more worried about a modern Porsche.
Even my McLarens warranty work last year would have been less than the warranty cost. And they’re supposed to literally fall apart as soon as you look at them
Surely insurance based warranties for cars this old make no sense? Unless you only plan to keep the car for a year. If it's a long termer, surely by definition it's going to be cheaper to fix issues than pay what will be high insurance premiums with loads of exclusions? The insurance company is there to make a profit.
It already seems some of the 'big ticket' items you're afraid of aren't nearly as big as you thought they were.
It already seems some of the 'big ticket' items you're afraid of aren't nearly as big as you thought they were.
BobM said:
Surely insurance based warranties for cars this old make no sense? Unless you only plan to keep the car for a year. If it's a long termer, surely by definition it's going to be cheaper to fix issues than pay what will be high insurance premiums with loads of exclusions? The insurance company is there to make a profit.
It already seems some of the 'big ticket' items you're afraid of aren't nearly as big as you thought they were.
Unfortunately my brother’s experience with a CaliT and a 458 Spider, bought in 2021, Cali T, traded in against 458 Spyder in 2023, both low mileage both the dct gearbox went. Fortunately he had a Ferrari warranty on both cars. It already seems some of the 'big ticket' items you're afraid of aren't nearly as big as you thought they were.
I think a lack of use(low mileage) don’t do these cars any favours. Apparently the problem was something to do with a cable tie wearing through something in the gearbox on both cars.
Me personally if I was lucky enough to own a Ferrari that is 10+ years old I would make sure I at least have the Ferrari warranty for the first year and in that first year I would use it as much as I can.
M138 said:
Unfortunately my brother’s experience with a CaliT and a 458 Spider, bought in 2021, Cali T, traded in against 458 Spyder in 2023, both low mileage both the dct gearbox went. Fortunately he had a Ferrari warranty on both cars.
I think a lack of use(low mileage) don’t do these cars any favours. Apparently the problem was something to do with a cable tie wearing through something in the gearbox on both cars.
Me personally if I was lucky enough to own a Ferrari that is 10+ years old I would make sure I at least have the Ferrari warranty for the first year and in that first year I would use it as much as I can.
Geabox in my 812 went pop at 3 years old. Eye watering cost to sort but fortunately under factory warranty. It costs me £9k for 2 year factory extension which covers everything and just renewed for another 2, which is the max you can go to on factory extension (up to 8 years old). If still go the car in 2 years don’t think will bother with the Power warranty as too many exclusions. At least I have total peace of mind for now and appreciate that comes at what I feel is an acceptable cost. I think a lack of use(low mileage) don’t do these cars any favours. Apparently the problem was something to do with a cable tie wearing through something in the gearbox on both cars.
Me personally if I was lucky enough to own a Ferrari that is 10+ years old I would make sure I at least have the Ferrari warranty for the first year and in that first year I would use it as much as I can.
Finally I can reply... Thanks PH..
In terms of a previous reply: long term costs of a warranty do build up of course, but for vast majority of us, we dip in and out of various cars and not many plan their finance-bought Ferraris as "keepers." The "thrill" of any Ferrari does wane a bit after a year, so few would benefit from long-term ownership without a warranty
However, as seen by a few other responders, these cars (newer or older) come with distinct liabilities.
The Getrag gearbox in 458 / Cali was tuned for faster more aggressive shifting (as compared with AMG products) and this led to quite a few failures. So with any DCT, an excited Ferrari owner has two ticking timebombs to contend with. My argument is people will just pass up on ownership for this very reason. That's a lot of anxiety for anyone, especially younger owners that are balancing numerous other living costs = these cars are notoriously slow sellers. It can't be a coincidence...
A previous replier mentioned rust. These ally cars don't rust, they corrode or oxidise. But yes, that can happen. More concerning is the fact all the rubbers dry up and the electrics tend to give up on cars that sit for too long. Another Ferrari / supercar issue to manage / stuff like dashboard replacements can also be hellishly expensive.. If you can even get hold of a replacement.. And then there's the never-ending roof issues, both soft and hard top. Apparently the original Cali roof is a monstrously expensive fix, if it goes wrong. And it does go wrong.
Insurance / warranty companies do make money, yes. It couldn't work any other way. But peace of mind is worth it, surely? I just find it a little odd that so few / no packages for these cars are readily available
In terms of a previous reply: long term costs of a warranty do build up of course, but for vast majority of us, we dip in and out of various cars and not many plan their finance-bought Ferraris as "keepers." The "thrill" of any Ferrari does wane a bit after a year, so few would benefit from long-term ownership without a warranty
However, as seen by a few other responders, these cars (newer or older) come with distinct liabilities.
The Getrag gearbox in 458 / Cali was tuned for faster more aggressive shifting (as compared with AMG products) and this led to quite a few failures. So with any DCT, an excited Ferrari owner has two ticking timebombs to contend with. My argument is people will just pass up on ownership for this very reason. That's a lot of anxiety for anyone, especially younger owners that are balancing numerous other living costs = these cars are notoriously slow sellers. It can't be a coincidence...
A previous replier mentioned rust. These ally cars don't rust, they corrode or oxidise. But yes, that can happen. More concerning is the fact all the rubbers dry up and the electrics tend to give up on cars that sit for too long. Another Ferrari / supercar issue to manage / stuff like dashboard replacements can also be hellishly expensive.. If you can even get hold of a replacement.. And then there's the never-ending roof issues, both soft and hard top. Apparently the original Cali roof is a monstrously expensive fix, if it goes wrong. And it does go wrong.
Insurance / warranty companies do make money, yes. It couldn't work any other way. But peace of mind is worth it, surely? I just find it a little odd that so few / no packages for these cars are readily available
Edited by 360430Lover on Sunday 13th April 12:04
1 how much did you spend on warranty costs,
2 how much did you spend on repairs which weren’t covered under warranty
3 what was the cost of repairs performed under warranty
In response to this..
My tale is complicated! I never paid for a warranty. However, I've experienced cars SO bad I've rejected them (twice). We're talking over £10-£15k works needed out of the blocks.
I had a bundled warranty (so free) with a 360 and had the AC condenser done, so something like £800 all in. FOC. So that did me quite well. The dealer also sorted a sh*t ton of issues with my 360 early on (leaks, sensors, door locks, alternator list goes on) of which I was grateful for.
But yes, I had numerous other costs, but then again I was prepared for those..
As for resale and values.. Sure, these cars do eventually sell. For what actual value, we never know or course. But I've had enormous discounts on 360 / 430 over the years. £10k off a 360. £15k off a 430.
If there were concrete warranties out there, I think these cars would fly out and at market value.
2 how much did you spend on repairs which weren’t covered under warranty
3 what was the cost of repairs performed under warranty
In response to this..
My tale is complicated! I never paid for a warranty. However, I've experienced cars SO bad I've rejected them (twice). We're talking over £10-£15k works needed out of the blocks.
I had a bundled warranty (so free) with a 360 and had the AC condenser done, so something like £800 all in. FOC. So that did me quite well. The dealer also sorted a sh*t ton of issues with my 360 early on (leaks, sensors, door locks, alternator list goes on) of which I was grateful for.
But yes, I had numerous other costs, but then again I was prepared for those..
As for resale and values.. Sure, these cars do eventually sell. For what actual value, we never know or course. But I've had enormous discounts on 360 / 430 over the years. £10k off a 360. £15k off a 430.
If there were concrete warranties out there, I think these cars would fly out and at market value.
360430Lover said:
... but for vast majority of us, we dip in and out of various cars and not many plan their finance-bought Ferraris as "keepers." The "thrill" of any Ferrari does wane a bit after a year, so few would benefit from long-term ownership without a warranty
What a strange statement to make. Plenty of people own their Ferraris long term without a warranty. I owned mine for 7 years, I knew several other owners who'd had them similar or longer. And if they do sell, it's often to buy another Ferrari.
If the thrill of a Ferrari wears off for you that quickly, you're probably buying the wrong car in the first place. I still found mine excellent after 7 years.
Your entire argument is a little strange. You think that relatively cheap warranties should be available for older supercars to mitigate risk to potential buyers.
But if there is that much risk, the warranties aren't going to be cheap.
Edited by davek_964 on Sunday 13th April 12:59
Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff