Ferrari fault codes "mystery", cowboy main dealer?
Discussion
TLDR version: Ferrari main dealer is claiming it took 10hrs+ labour to diagnose a faulty MAF sensor on my 612 as there were no fault codes being thrown. Call bull**** and refuse to pay if they try bill me the full amount?
Full version:
Took my 612 on a 600 mile drive and half way through, I got an Engine System Failure warning light. I still had full power up to 5k rpm so no immediate problem. Got home, left it for a few days to dry out (it had been very stormy the day of the error) did a battery disconnect/reconnect, then took it out again. This time, power was non-existent, and after 5 mins I got a cat overheat warning plus Engine System Failure warning light. So parked it up again, ordered an OBD2 reader, then when it arrived, I pulled the codes and got these:
CYL. 10-11-12 FRONT LAMBDA SENSOR ( P1047 )
LH BANK SELF-LEARNING OF AIR FUEL MIXTURE RATIO AT LOW ENGINE SPEED ( P1141 )
PROTECTION ACTIVATION FOR LH BANK CATALYTIC CONVERTERS ( P1454 )
CYL.7-8-9 SELF-LEARNING OF AIR FUEL MIXTURE RATIO AT LOW ENGINE SPEED ( P1143 )
ENGINE PARAMETERS AT IDLE SPEED ( P0507 )
Cleared them, started the car again, and then essentially got various repeats of the above. Did this several times. So had car trailered to main dealer, and sent them the above codes, assumed it was just a dodgy 02 sensor. Dealer then claimed they weren't getting any fault codes when starting/driving it. They did find an air leak on the intake manifold (loose clip/pipe) which they sorted, but still car would not run properly. And allegedly no fault codes still. So they ask if they can pull the plugs to check them, then they checked the leads, then they tested the gases, then they did a compression test, then they pulled an ECU from under the (passenger I think) seat. Finally, after confirming they'd got to 10 hours worth of labour (I asked as I was getting concerned), it appears they decided to finally check the MAF sensor, and then came back saying it's faulty, that they had pulled one off an 812 and tried it temporarily, and that the car then worked, so it's def the MAF sensor.
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem paying for a new MAF sensor and fitting. BUT, there is no way you're going to get me to believe that it takes 10 hours to diagnose a faulty MAF, and that:
a) you'd have a faulty MAF sensor (or indeed bloody any sensor) on a Ferrari without the system throwing multiple fault codes at you like I had initially
and...
b) even if you didn't have any fault codes, you'd be doing things like a compression test and faffing with an ECU, all before you decided to check the MAF sensors first
So, as you can imagine I am extremely disinclined to pay a full labour bill which I suspect they're going to ask for, as it seems either they're incompetent, or deliberately trying to rip me off. For what it's worth, I think it's the former, but the end result is clearly the same.
Thoughts?
Additionally, I just went onto eurospares and it seems that the 812 and 612 don't even share MAFs as a part (612's is a one peiece job, 812's is a sensor and a separate case), so it looks even dodgier what the dealer is saying.
Full version:
Took my 612 on a 600 mile drive and half way through, I got an Engine System Failure warning light. I still had full power up to 5k rpm so no immediate problem. Got home, left it for a few days to dry out (it had been very stormy the day of the error) did a battery disconnect/reconnect, then took it out again. This time, power was non-existent, and after 5 mins I got a cat overheat warning plus Engine System Failure warning light. So parked it up again, ordered an OBD2 reader, then when it arrived, I pulled the codes and got these:
CYL. 10-11-12 FRONT LAMBDA SENSOR ( P1047 )
LH BANK SELF-LEARNING OF AIR FUEL MIXTURE RATIO AT LOW ENGINE SPEED ( P1141 )
PROTECTION ACTIVATION FOR LH BANK CATALYTIC CONVERTERS ( P1454 )
CYL.7-8-9 SELF-LEARNING OF AIR FUEL MIXTURE RATIO AT LOW ENGINE SPEED ( P1143 )
ENGINE PARAMETERS AT IDLE SPEED ( P0507 )
Cleared them, started the car again, and then essentially got various repeats of the above. Did this several times. So had car trailered to main dealer, and sent them the above codes, assumed it was just a dodgy 02 sensor. Dealer then claimed they weren't getting any fault codes when starting/driving it. They did find an air leak on the intake manifold (loose clip/pipe) which they sorted, but still car would not run properly. And allegedly no fault codes still. So they ask if they can pull the plugs to check them, then they checked the leads, then they tested the gases, then they did a compression test, then they pulled an ECU from under the (passenger I think) seat. Finally, after confirming they'd got to 10 hours worth of labour (I asked as I was getting concerned), it appears they decided to finally check the MAF sensor, and then came back saying it's faulty, that they had pulled one off an 812 and tried it temporarily, and that the car then worked, so it's def the MAF sensor.
Now, don't get me wrong, I have no problem paying for a new MAF sensor and fitting. BUT, there is no way you're going to get me to believe that it takes 10 hours to diagnose a faulty MAF, and that:
a) you'd have a faulty MAF sensor (or indeed bloody any sensor) on a Ferrari without the system throwing multiple fault codes at you like I had initially
and...
b) even if you didn't have any fault codes, you'd be doing things like a compression test and faffing with an ECU, all before you decided to check the MAF sensors first
So, as you can imagine I am extremely disinclined to pay a full labour bill which I suspect they're going to ask for, as it seems either they're incompetent, or deliberately trying to rip me off. For what it's worth, I think it's the former, but the end result is clearly the same.
Thoughts?
Additionally, I just went onto eurospares and it seems that the 812 and 612 don't even share MAFs as a part (612's is a one peiece job, 812's is a sensor and a separate case), so it looks even dodgier what the dealer is saying.
I had something similar with my BMW. It threw codes for a failed wheel speed sensor. I took it in and told them. The codes were still there but the muppets proceeded to run gearbox checks and attempted to charge me 3 hours of diagnostics for gearbox problems. I told them that was ridiculous given that I'd told them what the problem was but they claimed that there is a diagnostic procedure which they must follow.
In the end, they backed down and removed the diagnostics labour charge from the bill.
In the end, they backed down and removed the diagnostics labour charge from the bill.
Service is now just an additional sales department, if they think they can get away with it they will constantly try it on, I would also be v unhappy at that.
If it were a small business the general practise would be called fraud but they all do it but usually back down immediately if challenged.
They have a bs answer ready for every occasion, if you have any technical knowledge or look up what they tell you it is rarely true or makes any sense.
I try to bypass them now and speak direct with the technician before authorising anything but the basics as they tend to be more honest.
If it were a small business the general practise would be called fraud but they all do it but usually back down immediately if challenged.
They have a bs answer ready for every occasion, if you have any technical knowledge or look up what they tell you it is rarely true or makes any sense.
I try to bypass them now and speak direct with the technician before authorising anything but the basics as they tend to be more honest.
Mario149 said:
Yes, believe so
They are some very odd codes for a MAF sensor if the cylinders are 1-6 down one back and 7-12 down the other. For example, the rear 3 cylinder are detecting self learning AFR issue, but the front 3 are reporting a lambda issue...It also says the whole left bank has a self leaning AFR issue, but calls out cylinders 7-9 spefically.
Very odd.
So, to finish the story...
A couple of days ago the Ferrari dealer got in touch, said they'd found the problem and that it was a faulty MAF, asked permission to replace it (I said yes) then sent me an invoice with 15 hours of labour (apparently already reduced from 18....
) on it plus cost of MAF.
Naturally I hit the roof, said I wasn't paying for all that labour, and asked why the MAF on the left bank wasn't one of the first things they checked. Anyway, long story short, they chopped the labour bill in half. Was still too much IMO (although it did also inc a bit of labour for fixing an air leak in intake manifold) but:
1) I think I do need to maintain a relationship with them (not really a plethora of Ferrari specialists where we live so it'll end up with them for work generally more likely than not)
2) given their hourly rate (once what appears to be a standard discount is applied) is €136+VAT, which is comparable to UK indies, it's not as bad as it would be in UK
3) the UK dealer I purchased the car from should be making a contribution
...all means I'm willing to take this one on the chin a bit.
Explanation by them of why it took so long to diagnose appears 2-fold from what the service manager explained to me today (make of it what you will) when I picked up the car:
1) technicians are required to follow certain standardised procedures to diagnose problems
...which had a bad interaction with...
2) misunderstanding the recent history of the car whereby the technician saw a compression test on the most recent service invoice before I bought the car (as part of the PPI) BUT the results of the test were on a separate doc (showing great numbers incidentally), so they seem to have assumed that there was a pre-existing compression problem.
...and...
3) Ferraris in Europe tend to have no/terrible histories so they generally assume the worst without asking for evidence to the contrary
They got about as close to admitting that they f***** up as they could without actually admitting it.
Anyway, important thing is that at least I got to an acceptable, if not perfect result, at the end. If I do go back to them in future I'll be sure to keep them on a tight leash.
Now I'd just like to be able to enjoy the car a bit
A couple of days ago the Ferrari dealer got in touch, said they'd found the problem and that it was a faulty MAF, asked permission to replace it (I said yes) then sent me an invoice with 15 hours of labour (apparently already reduced from 18....
) on it plus cost of MAF.Naturally I hit the roof, said I wasn't paying for all that labour, and asked why the MAF on the left bank wasn't one of the first things they checked. Anyway, long story short, they chopped the labour bill in half. Was still too much IMO (although it did also inc a bit of labour for fixing an air leak in intake manifold) but:
1) I think I do need to maintain a relationship with them (not really a plethora of Ferrari specialists where we live so it'll end up with them for work generally more likely than not)
2) given their hourly rate (once what appears to be a standard discount is applied) is €136+VAT, which is comparable to UK indies, it's not as bad as it would be in UK
3) the UK dealer I purchased the car from should be making a contribution
...all means I'm willing to take this one on the chin a bit.
Explanation by them of why it took so long to diagnose appears 2-fold from what the service manager explained to me today (make of it what you will) when I picked up the car:
1) technicians are required to follow certain standardised procedures to diagnose problems
...which had a bad interaction with...
2) misunderstanding the recent history of the car whereby the technician saw a compression test on the most recent service invoice before I bought the car (as part of the PPI) BUT the results of the test were on a separate doc (showing great numbers incidentally), so they seem to have assumed that there was a pre-existing compression problem.
...and...
3) Ferraris in Europe tend to have no/terrible histories so they generally assume the worst without asking for evidence to the contrary
They got about as close to admitting that they f***** up as they could without actually admitting it.
Anyway, important thing is that at least I got to an acceptable, if not perfect result, at the end. If I do go back to them in future I'll be sure to keep them on a tight leash.
Now I'd just like to be able to enjoy the car a bit
Suspect you're right on that too, almost all the sguff that runs around here is much newer (and hence less cool obvs 
). Service manager made a big point yesterday when explaining, of saying "we put a master technician on your car" given the symptoms and they also consulted another ferrari "flying doctor" who supposed to be some sort of expert consultant available to the dealer when they need support. I do wonder if ironically that made it worse e.g. Big guns called in on assumption problem is complex amd serious, hence only look for complex and serious problems 
Well, like I said before, important thing is that they fixed the situation such that I'm willing to be a customer (albeit cautious) in future, so what was a nightmare initially has turned into a result where everyone wins a little at least which is positive.
That said, I'm now paranoid about oxygen sensors going, so there a 90% chance in the near future I'm going to order a replacement set of 8 from eurospares and get my 40€/hr local chap (who does my 993) to a blanket replacement for me
). Service manager made a big point yesterday when explaining, of saying "we put a master technician on your car" given the symptoms and they also consulted another ferrari "flying doctor" who supposed to be some sort of expert consultant available to the dealer when they need support. I do wonder if ironically that made it worse e.g. Big guns called in on assumption problem is complex amd serious, hence only look for complex and serious problems Well, like I said before, important thing is that they fixed the situation such that I'm willing to be a customer (albeit cautious) in future, so what was a nightmare initially has turned into a result where everyone wins a little at least which is positive.
That said, I'm now paranoid about oxygen sensors going, so there a 90% chance in the near future I'm going to order a replacement set of 8 from eurospares and get my 40€/hr local chap (who does my 993) to a blanket replacement for me
ex-devonpaul said:
The problem these days with taking something like a 612 to a main dealer is that more of their technicians were being trained on pottys than cars when it was released.
This. My F430 is serviced at a main dealer and fettled by an indy. Had the car serviced as usual and parked it up for a bit before taking it to an indy for some balljoints, etc. Up on the lift for a routine inspection and discovered the sump plug was half a turn loose and would likely, in time, have worked itself free. Cue much frothing and venting on my part.Indy said that many techs will no longer have been trained on F430s and even the manuals that they have to work from aren’t always correct. He related a story about one poor chap on Ferrarichat who destroyed his clutch because some torque figures on a workshop manual weren’t correct. Ouch.
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