When Does It Makes Sense To Start A Garage?
Discussion
Hello,
My accountant made a passing joke to me yesterday, after he heard I bought another car.
I currently have a mixture of 6 different types of cars... some not so expensive (modern classics) and others at the other end of the scale.
Considering I have my own small business that does relatively well with 8 staff, he said I could set up a new company (car garage) under a group structure and I could transfer funds from my main company to the new car company to use to buy my next cars.
The small downside is that a company would own them, but I would own 100% of the company.
The plus side is that the company would pay for them, and I wouldn't have to pay myself such a high salary to pay for them myself as half of what I earn goes to the tax man.
I would love to do this as I would love to sell 2-3 cars a year part time as a garage too.
Has anyone else set their collection up like this? It seems like an obvious move, so keen to hear from others who have any information on this, thank you.
My accountant made a passing joke to me yesterday, after he heard I bought another car.
I currently have a mixture of 6 different types of cars... some not so expensive (modern classics) and others at the other end of the scale.
Considering I have my own small business that does relatively well with 8 staff, he said I could set up a new company (car garage) under a group structure and I could transfer funds from my main company to the new car company to use to buy my next cars.
The small downside is that a company would own them, but I would own 100% of the company.
The plus side is that the company would pay for them, and I wouldn't have to pay myself such a high salary to pay for them myself as half of what I earn goes to the tax man.
I would love to do this as I would love to sell 2-3 cars a year part time as a garage too.
Has anyone else set their collection up like this? It seems like an obvious move, so keen to hear from others who have any information on this, thank you.
LamboPH said:
Hello,
My accountant made a passing joke to me yesterday, after he heard I bought another car.
I currently have a mixture of 6 different types of cars... some not so expensive (modern classics) and others at the other end of the scale.
Considering I have my own small business that does relatively well with 8 staff, he said I could set up a new company (car garage) under a group structure and I could transfer funds from my main company to the new car company to use to buy my next cars.
The small downside is that a company would own them, but I would own 100% of the company.
The plus side is that the company would pay for them, and I wouldn't have to pay myself such a high salary to pay for them myself as half of what I earn goes to the tax man.
I would love to do this as I would love to sell 2-3 cars a year part time as a garage too.
Has anyone else set their collection up like this? It seems like an obvious move, so keen to hear from others who have any information on this, thank you.
Sounds like you have a good accountant so should guide you wright, Less tax if less wage but if you make a profit on the cars if classic you will probably have to pay tax on it where now if they are your personal cars should be tax free.My accountant made a passing joke to me yesterday, after he heard I bought another car.
I currently have a mixture of 6 different types of cars... some not so expensive (modern classics) and others at the other end of the scale.
Considering I have my own small business that does relatively well with 8 staff, he said I could set up a new company (car garage) under a group structure and I could transfer funds from my main company to the new car company to use to buy my next cars.
The small downside is that a company would own them, but I would own 100% of the company.
The plus side is that the company would pay for them, and I wouldn't have to pay myself such a high salary to pay for them myself as half of what I earn goes to the tax man.
I would love to do this as I would love to sell 2-3 cars a year part time as a garage too.
Has anyone else set their collection up like this? It seems like an obvious move, so keen to hear from others who have any information on this, thank you.
Being in the motor trade may have different rules but my accountant told me i was entitled to a personal car per year as long as i didn't claim any running cost's from it as you can't have your cake and eat it
Owned a Countach for 9 years and paid all expenses out of my own pocket and after such a long ownership there's no way the tax man could class it as stock but with more luck than judgement made a substantial profit when i sold it some 5 years ago and was then told i could be in for capital gains tax even though i was retired by then.
My accountant said he will be there for me if or when this might arise what ever that means,
Sorry not such help as a little over my head .
The main financial benefit is buying your cars out of income which has already paid 19% Corporation tax as opposed to from personal income after paying income tax. Assuming you would fall in a high rate personal tax bracket either 42% or 47% inc NIC. The profits would also incur a lower rate every time you sell a car at a gain..
From a purely tax POV its a total no-brainer as long as you happy owning the cars within a limited company. The potential problem arises in the future when the company needs to be wound up eg on death where it gets complicated and potentially expensive.
From a purely tax POV its a total no-brainer as long as you happy owning the cars within a limited company. The potential problem arises in the future when the company needs to be wound up eg on death where it gets complicated and potentially expensive.
Edited by Taffy66 on Saturday 3rd October 22:04
RSbandit said:
Aren’t there substantial benefit in kind costs to buying a car thru a lim co?
Yes, but only if the company is providing a vehicle for an employee or director for their personal use as well as undertaking their employed duties.In the scenario above the OP will become a Motor Trading Ltd Company. The company will own all the vehicles as "stock" it's a different business model and side steps the BIK problem by virtue of the Ltd company being a registered motor trader.
The OP will own the Ltd outright and therefore all it's assets (the cars).
I'd always assumed this was the business model being used by most youtubers? In which case there's also a potential VAT advantage on new car purchases.
Edited by 21ATS on Saturday 3rd October 23:03
Yes, I think a lot of YouTubers run their cars like that so that they can use their YouTube income to expense their cars.
Their cars are treated as a stock asset for the purpose of their business / income.
I think it makes sense to setup a garage to facilitate the purchase of some cars... cars that you would like to own for 6 to 12 months, and comfortable to sell on.
You can always buy the more classic cars through personal means, if that is of interest too.
Can anyone point out any other negative aspects to this? Obviously you can't be driving around in 'stock' cars everyday, but the type of cars I am referring to are "once every 2 weeks type of cars", then use my personal cars for daily.
Their cars are treated as a stock asset for the purpose of their business / income.
I think it makes sense to setup a garage to facilitate the purchase of some cars... cars that you would like to own for 6 to 12 months, and comfortable to sell on.
You can always buy the more classic cars through personal means, if that is of interest too.
Can anyone point out any other negative aspects to this? Obviously you can't be driving around in 'stock' cars everyday, but the type of cars I am referring to are "once every 2 weeks type of cars", then use my personal cars for daily.
Is there any compulsion to be seen to be advertising the "stock" for sale? Which I guess you could do at retail +£30k so it's unlikely to sell.
The only other pitfall I could possibly see is it's a subsiuary of the exisiting Ltd company and somehow tied to it should things go south at some point in the future.
Would it make more sense to be a complete stand alone entity or does that create corporation tax issues?
An aquaintance did something similar a few years ago but I vaguely remember it being a "motorsports" company as he was into track days and most of his toys were hardcore track weapons.
HMRC doesn't like loopholes and those that (quite legally) exploit them, so I tend to be rather sceptical of these things unless my accountant was absolutely sure.
The only other pitfall I could possibly see is it's a subsiuary of the exisiting Ltd company and somehow tied to it should things go south at some point in the future.
Would it make more sense to be a complete stand alone entity or does that create corporation tax issues?
An aquaintance did something similar a few years ago but I vaguely remember it being a "motorsports" company as he was into track days and most of his toys were hardcore track weapons.
HMRC doesn't like loopholes and those that (quite legally) exploit them, so I tend to be rather sceptical of these things unless my accountant was absolutely sure.
21ATS said:
HMRC doesn't like loopholes and those that (quite legally) exploit them, so I tend to be rather sceptical of these things unless my accountant was absolutely sure.
I would echo this. Even if it's perfectly legal, you can end up in a world of pain bending the rules to your purposes- remember all the crap over those offshore & film production schemes. Paradoxically, you can see that it holds water for youtubers but more nuanced in other circumstances. You need to be trading in HMRC's eyes, which isn't always easy to exactly define e.g. is it selling one car a month, 2 cars a year or whatever level they define. Plus you'll need to be seen to be trading - website, advertising, premises etc etc.
Like most of these things, someone else will have tried it by now and I can't see HMRC going for this. Plus as has been said, the BIK implications of private use. Taking supercars home from a Ltd Co isn't a trivial benefit...
Like most of these things, someone else will have tried it by now and I can't see HMRC going for this. Plus as has been said, the BIK implications of private use. Taking supercars home from a Ltd Co isn't a trivial benefit...
If i was in a similar situation i'd rather own my car collection in my own personal name. Owning them within a LTD can potentially open a can of worms including being scrutinised by the IR. Another major con is if you ever need to wind the company up or transfer a car for own personal use.
You are forgetting about VAT and CT you will pay on any car sale where there is a profit, perhaps not relevant but you will need to file tax returns and keep showing a loss will be odd as a car trader?
You will need traders insurance, which is actually reasonable in cost, and trade plates BUT you will only get insurance in your 1st year of trading for cars up to a value of £10k (could have been £20k) so buying supercars and running through trade is never going to happen unless you have years of trading history.
You can have one personal car not on trade plates, all the others will be on trade plates when on the road and be limited to test drives only. This will be limited to £20k too,
Just doesn't work.
You will need traders insurance, which is actually reasonable in cost, and trade plates BUT you will only get insurance in your 1st year of trading for cars up to a value of £10k (could have been £20k) so buying supercars and running through trade is never going to happen unless you have years of trading history.
You can have one personal car not on trade plates, all the others will be on trade plates when on the road and be limited to test drives only. This will be limited to £20k too,
Just doesn't work.
21ATS said:
Is there any compulsion to be seen to be advertising the "stock" for sale? Which I guess you could do at retail +£30k so it's unlikely to sell.
The only other pitfall I could possibly see is it's a subsiuary of the exisiting Ltd company and somehow tied to it should things go south at some point in the future.
Would it make more sense to be a complete stand alone entity or does that create corporation tax issues?
An aquaintance did something similar a few years ago but I vaguely remember it being a "motorsports" company as he was into track days and most of his toys were hardcore track weapons.
HMRC doesn't like loopholes and those that (quite legally) exploit them, so I tend to be rather sceptical of these things unless my accountant was absolutely sure.
Agreed. If you could not demonstrate that are operating as a dealership e.g. adverts, trader's insurance, premises. stock turnover etc, couldn't HMRC consider it a sham? I am in no way an expert, but just asking what seemed obvious to me. I am interested to know the outcome, as it has crossed my mind, too.The only other pitfall I could possibly see is it's a subsiuary of the exisiting Ltd company and somehow tied to it should things go south at some point in the future.
Would it make more sense to be a complete stand alone entity or does that create corporation tax issues?
An aquaintance did something similar a few years ago but I vaguely remember it being a "motorsports" company as he was into track days and most of his toys were hardcore track weapons.
HMRC doesn't like loopholes and those that (quite legally) exploit them, so I tend to be rather sceptical of these things unless my accountant was absolutely sure.
Would you be buying your cars retail and then selling at a loss after depreciation? If so isn't it illegal to intentially operate a company at a loss? I'd be worried about an HMRC investigation, which would be stressful, time consuming and potentially expensive.
When you come to sell a car would you need to advertise it under your trading name and have to provide a warranty under xx consumer trading act?
These points plus what others have said would put me off going down this route.
When you come to sell a car would you need to advertise it under your trading name and have to provide a warranty under xx consumer trading act?
These points plus what others have said would put me off going down this route.
Apologies for the delay in replying.
First of all, thank you for all of the replies and input.
I don't think I have explained my vision / approach correctly, so I'll try an clarify a few things.
- I would not be setting up the Car Company to just facilitate 'getting new cars'... I would be running it as a business first and foremost
- I would specialise in 'investment' based cars... i.e - cars that are likely to hold their value well over a period of time or appreciate (911 964 / 993, 458, 458 Speciale)
- I would still buy cars through personal means, if they are cars that I want to keep for a long period of time
- I already have a premises / unit that has room for up to 10 cars indoors
- I would most certainly operate from a proper premises, with a website, live advertisements, and everything else that goes with running a small car garage
- I have cash sitting in one of my main companies, so it would be great to use that cash to start and invest in another business... one that I have a strong personal interest in... with a view of turning that investment into further profit
- I think having further interests in the car game as a business, would also help me personally when buying cars personally
- Yes, it would be great to experience some of the stock every now and again, even if that is just looking at them on the showroom floor, but I would never forget that this is business
Thanks again for the replies. Keen to hear your updated thoughts on the above... and if you still think it is not worth doing, thanks again.
First of all, thank you for all of the replies and input.
I don't think I have explained my vision / approach correctly, so I'll try an clarify a few things.
- I would not be setting up the Car Company to just facilitate 'getting new cars'... I would be running it as a business first and foremost
- I would specialise in 'investment' based cars... i.e - cars that are likely to hold their value well over a period of time or appreciate (911 964 / 993, 458, 458 Speciale)
- I would still buy cars through personal means, if they are cars that I want to keep for a long period of time
- I already have a premises / unit that has room for up to 10 cars indoors
- I would most certainly operate from a proper premises, with a website, live advertisements, and everything else that goes with running a small car garage
- I have cash sitting in one of my main companies, so it would be great to use that cash to start and invest in another business... one that I have a strong personal interest in... with a view of turning that investment into further profit
- I think having further interests in the car game as a business, would also help me personally when buying cars personally
- Yes, it would be great to experience some of the stock every now and again, even if that is just looking at them on the showroom floor, but I would never forget that this is business
Thanks again for the replies. Keen to hear your updated thoughts on the above... and if you still think it is not worth doing, thanks again.
I thought about sth similar recently as I can’t get my cars insured under a group policy (it seems this is not available for private individuals in Germany) and insuring each car separately costs me an absolute fortune. Will follow the thread with interest (although I really did want to use my cars as I please, so the whole drive it very little/rarely aspect would not work for me)
LamboPH said:
Yes, I think a lot of YouTubers run their cars like that so that they can use their YouTube income to expense their cars.
Their cars are treated as a stock asset for the purpose of their business / income.
I assumed their cars are all leased? Their cars are treated as a stock asset for the purpose of their business / income.
This whole scheme sounds like a great way to encourage HMRC to poke their nose into your business if you're claiming a car is a "stock asset" while driving around it around on a personal basis.
CzechItOut said:
I assumed their cars are all leased?
This whole scheme sounds like a great way to encourage HMRC to poke their nose into your business if you're claiming a car is a "stock asset" while driving around it around on a personal basis.
You clearly failed to read the post correctly. Where did I say I would be "driving around in a stock asset on a personal basis"???This whole scheme sounds like a great way to encourage HMRC to poke their nose into your business if you're claiming a car is a "stock asset" while driving around it around on a personal basis.
I would keep my personal and business cars separate.
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