Why this obsession with ride comfort in Supercars ?
Discussion
The PH Supercar Forum is littered with adoring comments about the ride quality of the latest Supercars such as :
'' ride quality to match some of the best luxury limousines '' and
'' magic carpet ride '' .
But why ?
Surely you want to feel the car interacting with the road surface when driving a sportscar or a supercar .
A limousine is designed to isolate you from just this .
Why would you want the sensory deprivation that would come with a ''magic carpet ride ''
I can entirely understand , and indeed subscribe to , wanting a car with a chassis and suspension tuned so that the contact patch is as optimally aligned to the road surface at all times , or to a car whose steering is direct and accurate and uncorrupted , or whose accelerator pedal moves smoothly and progressively , or a gearchange which allows you to feel the mechanicals meshing together .
But this obsession with ride comfort in a supercar surprises and perplexes me :
--Surprises me , because so much emphasis is put on something that is already very good , and so has relatively little scope for further improvement .
--Perplexes and worries me , because we seem to be sending the wrong message to the manufacturers -- that the current cohort of supercar owners are hugely worried about the comfort of their bottoms .This in turn influences how manufacturers prioritise the various dynamic considerations when designing their supercar -- and bottom comfort shouldn't , IMHO , feature very highly at all .
--Or are we being fooled by the PR Dept about something that they claim is ground-breaking ,but which is so slight an improvement that our bottoms cannot really feel it , but our pre-conditioned minds certainly can ?
Sure there are a few supercar owners who drive their supercars to work everyday , but most don't .
Why would you ?
What point are you trying to prove on the daily 15 mph slog ?
Why use a surgical microscalpel when what you really need is an axe ?
On a busy and potentially trying workday all I want is something that gets me to and fro safely and without drama , and because my main focus is on the upcoming work , I want to get there as fresh and unflustered as possible , so a limousine quality ride is exactly what I want
But come playtime , I want to drive a sportscar or a supercar , and I want raw , unadulterated sensations that tell me exactly how the car is interacting with the rough , undulating road surface underneath .
Anything less is self-inflicted deprivation
So at playtime , a limousine , magic carpet ride is precisely what I don't want .
'' ride quality to match some of the best luxury limousines '' and
'' magic carpet ride '' .
But why ?
Surely you want to feel the car interacting with the road surface when driving a sportscar or a supercar .
A limousine is designed to isolate you from just this .
Why would you want the sensory deprivation that would come with a ''magic carpet ride ''
I can entirely understand , and indeed subscribe to , wanting a car with a chassis and suspension tuned so that the contact patch is as optimally aligned to the road surface at all times , or to a car whose steering is direct and accurate and uncorrupted , or whose accelerator pedal moves smoothly and progressively , or a gearchange which allows you to feel the mechanicals meshing together .
But this obsession with ride comfort in a supercar surprises and perplexes me :
--Surprises me , because so much emphasis is put on something that is already very good , and so has relatively little scope for further improvement .
--Perplexes and worries me , because we seem to be sending the wrong message to the manufacturers -- that the current cohort of supercar owners are hugely worried about the comfort of their bottoms .This in turn influences how manufacturers prioritise the various dynamic considerations when designing their supercar -- and bottom comfort shouldn't , IMHO , feature very highly at all .
--Or are we being fooled by the PR Dept about something that they claim is ground-breaking ,but which is so slight an improvement that our bottoms cannot really feel it , but our pre-conditioned minds certainly can ?
Sure there are a few supercar owners who drive their supercars to work everyday , but most don't .
Why would you ?
What point are you trying to prove on the daily 15 mph slog ?
Why use a surgical microscalpel when what you really need is an axe ?
On a busy and potentially trying workday all I want is something that gets me to and fro safely and without drama , and because my main focus is on the upcoming work , I want to get there as fresh and unflustered as possible , so a limousine quality ride is exactly what I want
But come playtime , I want to drive a sportscar or a supercar , and I want raw , unadulterated sensations that tell me exactly how the car is interacting with the rough , undulating road surface underneath .
Anything less is self-inflicted deprivation
So at playtime , a limousine , magic carpet ride is precisely what I don't want .
The thing is, you’re making it out that ride comfort and all of the other ‘desirable and default’ supercar traits are mutually exclusive. If you’ve ever driven a 488 or a 720s you’ll realise they are not. Why not take better ride comfort if it’s not at the cost of anything else? I’m much more likely want to spent time and put miles/tour in a comfortable supercar than a bone shaker. I certainly don’t see it negative in any way that my supercar is the best riding car I own (or probably ever have).
I’m no chassis engineer but I can say from personal experience that better ride quality does not mean that handling is worse. In fact, I might venture to propose that better ride quality means that the tyre contact patch stays in more consistent contact with the road, thereby leading to more consistent and hence predictable levels of grip. Hopefully some engineers will be along to explain it all.
My cases in point;
My F355 rode far better and was more comfortable than my wife’s Aston V8V which was lumpy and clunky. The F355 also handled a lot better despite being a decade older.
My BMW 3er GT in comfort setting rides better than my FF - but in the GT’s sport setting they are about the same. The FF blows the GT into the weeds when it comes to handling in any setting.
A recent experience with the latest Mercedes E class had me wonder how they got it so badly wrong. It leaned like the Belgrano in corners and had a lumpy and crashing ride. In this case, it had the worst handling and the worst ride by far.
My cases in point;
My F355 rode far better and was more comfortable than my wife’s Aston V8V which was lumpy and clunky. The F355 also handled a lot better despite being a decade older.
My BMW 3er GT in comfort setting rides better than my FF - but in the GT’s sport setting they are about the same. The FF blows the GT into the weeds when it comes to handling in any setting.
A recent experience with the latest Mercedes E class had me wonder how they got it so badly wrong. It leaned like the Belgrano in corners and had a lumpy and crashing ride. In this case, it had the worst handling and the worst ride by far.
mainly because most supercar owners (especially convertibles) want to put their hot blonde wife/mistress in the car with them, if the rides anything other than "magic carpet" if jiggles their augmented assets to much, causing stress that only another Louis Vuitton derivate can subdue, the true hidden cost of supercars i like to call it 
Couldn’t agree more OP, why would I buy a supercar with a better ride than my daily driver?
Add to that, the low noise levels with modern Turbo engines, and you’ve got a situation where you have to drive these cars in licence losing territories, to get any feeling of speed and excitement, and the associated feedback that you expect with a Supercar.
I found that cars like the 488, and Macs were so refined that I couldn’t see any particular reason to buy one. Kudos to them if that’s what they were aiming for, but for me I need to get some excitement from the car and chassis at moderate speeds... imo, ymmv, etc....
Add to that, the low noise levels with modern Turbo engines, and you’ve got a situation where you have to drive these cars in licence losing territories, to get any feeling of speed and excitement, and the associated feedback that you expect with a Supercar.
I found that cars like the 488, and Macs were so refined that I couldn’t see any particular reason to buy one. Kudos to them if that’s what they were aiming for, but for me I need to get some excitement from the car and chassis at moderate speeds... imo, ymmv, etc....
OP here.
Feedback , or lack thereof , is the fundamental issue that I am getting at here .
A limousine , magic carpet ride indicates that technology has been used as a filter to isolate the driver and passenger from the road surface , and more specifically how the car interacts with the road surface .
This filtering reduces and degrades feedback .
And this reduced and adulterated feedback is my main issue with manufacturers prioritising ride comfort in supercars .
Feedback , or lack thereof , is the fundamental issue that I am getting at here .
A limousine , magic carpet ride indicates that technology has been used as a filter to isolate the driver and passenger from the road surface , and more specifically how the car interacts with the road surface .
This filtering reduces and degrades feedback .
And this reduced and adulterated feedback is my main issue with manufacturers prioritising ride comfort in supercars .
Revenue would be my guess.
Best driver feedback cars? Elise? Atom? How many do they sell?
Then look at the incredibly successful 911 sports car. Whilst a disproportionate volume of PH users will hanker for the GT versions, the majority of target demographics want and more importantly buy the carrera versions as they are better daily drivers.
Super car manufacturers look at that demographic and conclude magic ride is probably one of the important design points to attract customers.
Best driver feedback cars? Elise? Atom? How many do they sell?
Then look at the incredibly successful 911 sports car. Whilst a disproportionate volume of PH users will hanker for the GT versions, the majority of target demographics want and more importantly buy the carrera versions as they are better daily drivers.
Super car manufacturers look at that demographic and conclude magic ride is probably one of the important design points to attract customers.
Yes , Lotus had its best year in the last 7 years in terms of sales in 2019 , and yet only sold 1630 cars .
Bell and Colvill seemed to suggest ( not totally confident about this figure ) that only about 100 Elises were registered in the UK last year - an astonishingly small number considering its price to performance/feedback/agility ratios .
Bell and Colvill seemed to suggest ( not totally confident about this figure ) that only about 100 Elises were registered in the UK last year - an astonishingly small number considering its price to performance/feedback/agility ratios .
I agree, feeling like I am removed from what the car is doing with some chewy layer in between is annoying. I actually see it that way in general including my daily driver (don’t need the daily to be race car uncomfortable, but would even for a daily prefer the equation to tilt more towards feedback than comfort - a 996 or 997 generation 911 or a 355 are in my opinion perfectly comfortable cars to daily, no need for more comfort than that, can upgrade radio/nav if required, but no must have)
It's market driven - the majority of buyers want something to be seen in and feel good about rather than being able to exploit the potential.
Same thing for 4WD SUVs - 99.9% of them are never driven off-road.
The SV, RS, RR, +++ variant should be the one that has none of the nanny comforts, but again that is targeted at the people with money in their pocket who will moan that they bought the performance model but now find it is too stiff, lively, quick...
Same thing for 4WD SUVs - 99.9% of them are never driven off-road.
The SV, RS, RR, +++ variant should be the one that has none of the nanny comforts, but again that is targeted at the people with money in their pocket who will moan that they bought the performance model but now find it is too stiff, lively, quick...
garystoybox said:
The thing is, you’re making it out that ride comfort and all of the other ‘desirable and default’ supercar traits are mutually exclusive. If you’ve ever driven a 488 or a 720s you’ll realise they are not. Why not take better ride comfort if it’s not at the cost of anything else? I’m much more likely want to spent time and put miles/tour in a comfortable supercar than a bone shaker. I certainly don’t see it negative in any way that my supercar is the best riding car I own (or probably ever have).
Couldn’t have put it better myself.Why wouldn’t you want superb ride quality, as long as feel and tactility isn’t compromised ?
Properly sprung/valved high end 3 way adjustable dampers bolted onto pretty much any car allow you to have the best of both worlds. I’d suggest the OP tries a car equipped with them.
Kyodo said:
Perhaps we like ride comfort because our roads are so sh! t e. Just a thought.
Road surface quality is certainly sh!te in many areas across the UK, and worse than areas in Spain !And this is with fuel tax being pumped into maintaining them.
What happens to UK road surface quality when heavy electric SUV's damage the roads even further, and don't contribute to the tax ??
I look for exceptional ride quality in my supercars, why?
1. UK roads are dire quality and I can usually make swifter progress down many B roads in my daily drivers than in firmly sprung cars. Many harder sprung cars ground out, get thrown off line by bumps and sometimes feet jump on / off the pedals!
2. I want to use my supercars, they cost a lot of money and they are not going to sit around as garage queens. I want to be able to use them whenever I want, for whatever I want and most importantly I want to enjoy them with my wife who will not tolerate a hard ride
3. There is no excuse for poor ride quality. If McLaren and Lotus can do it anyone can & I hate the trend for oversized wheels with rubber band tyres.
4. I think you are confusing what a supercar is. A supercar aims to be the ultimate, the best at everything and can be used for long continental trips. They are not out and out race cars for the road. If you want a rock hard compromised race car for the road get a GT3RS and backache. The choice is yours.
I have driven many cars and IMHO a McLaren, Lotus or even a Ferrari ride better than mainstream BMW's, Merc's & Audi's esp. SUV's. I can't even be a passenger in a Range Rover or Cayenne the ride quality is a dire cyclical see-sawing boat. A 5 series BMW even makes me car sick driving it!
Ride quality is paramount to usability. It is the main feature (aesthetics aside) I look for when buying a car:-
1 Ride quality
2 Driving position
3 Ease of placement (view out / glasshouse)
4 Steering feel
5 Throttle response
6 Gearbox & clutch action
7 Simplicity / ability to turn off systems
Top speed & 0-60 are all just top trumps and don't really have an relevance when most supercars can have you losing your licence from standstill in 3 seconds. Yes a car has to feel fast but some very fast cars don't and some slower ones do. 90% of owners will never get anywhere near the limits and should not on UK roads. What we want to do is drive and enjoy them and to do that they need to be usable & comfortable 90% of the time.
Many supercars have adjustable suspension settings anyway so I am not sure what the issue is? My 675LT can turn from a rock hard track monster to a cosseting motorway muncher at the turn of a dial, as can most supercars.
1. UK roads are dire quality and I can usually make swifter progress down many B roads in my daily drivers than in firmly sprung cars. Many harder sprung cars ground out, get thrown off line by bumps and sometimes feet jump on / off the pedals!
2. I want to use my supercars, they cost a lot of money and they are not going to sit around as garage queens. I want to be able to use them whenever I want, for whatever I want and most importantly I want to enjoy them with my wife who will not tolerate a hard ride
3. There is no excuse for poor ride quality. If McLaren and Lotus can do it anyone can & I hate the trend for oversized wheels with rubber band tyres.
4. I think you are confusing what a supercar is. A supercar aims to be the ultimate, the best at everything and can be used for long continental trips. They are not out and out race cars for the road. If you want a rock hard compromised race car for the road get a GT3RS and backache. The choice is yours.
I have driven many cars and IMHO a McLaren, Lotus or even a Ferrari ride better than mainstream BMW's, Merc's & Audi's esp. SUV's. I can't even be a passenger in a Range Rover or Cayenne the ride quality is a dire cyclical see-sawing boat. A 5 series BMW even makes me car sick driving it!
Ride quality is paramount to usability. It is the main feature (aesthetics aside) I look for when buying a car:-
1 Ride quality
2 Driving position
3 Ease of placement (view out / glasshouse)
4 Steering feel
5 Throttle response
6 Gearbox & clutch action
7 Simplicity / ability to turn off systems
Top speed & 0-60 are all just top trumps and don't really have an relevance when most supercars can have you losing your licence from standstill in 3 seconds. Yes a car has to feel fast but some very fast cars don't and some slower ones do. 90% of owners will never get anywhere near the limits and should not on UK roads. What we want to do is drive and enjoy them and to do that they need to be usable & comfortable 90% of the time.
Many supercars have adjustable suspension settings anyway so I am not sure what the issue is? My 675LT can turn from a rock hard track monster to a cosseting motorway muncher at the turn of a dial, as can most supercars.
Slippydiff said:
garystoybox said:
The thing is, you’re making it out that ride comfort and all of the other ‘desirable and default’ supercar traits are mutually exclusive. If you’ve ever driven a 488 or a 720s you’ll realise they are not. Why not take better ride comfort if it’s not at the cost of anything else? I’m much more likely want to spent time and put miles/tour in a comfortable supercar than a bone shaker. I certainly don’t see it negative in any way that my supercar is the best riding car I own (or probably ever have).
Couldn’t have put it better myself.Why wouldn’t you want superb ride quality, as long as feel and tactility isn’t compromised ?
Properly sprung/valved high end 3 way adjustable dampers bolted onto pretty much any car allow you to have the best of both worlds. I’d suggest the OP tries a car equipped with them.
Re in-cockpit electronically adjustable dampers : I think that they introduce yet another layer of detachment and uncertainty to the driving experience .
I tend to keep my cars for a very long time , and I get used to how a car talks to me as it deals with any given road imperfection/ undulation /camber change , and how it rolls or yaws through a corner .
With multiple damper adjustments available , you don't quite know ( unless you have a photographic memory , and drive that one car a lot ) how the car will behave as you drive it over a given road surface or through a given corner ---- simply because there are multiple damper settings , each of which will give you a different amount and type of feedback .
I like to know in advance how a car will react to a road surface or a corner , and for this reason alone , I regard the variability that accompanies multiple damper settings as a negative thing .
Re this list , I agree with all that is on the list , but my own priorities would be quite different .
BISPAL
1 Ride quality
2 Driving position
3 Ease of placement (view out / glasshouse)
4 Steering feel
5 Throttle response
6 Gearbox & clutch action
7 Simplicity / ability to turn off systems
MINE (IMHO)
1 Ease of placement (view out / glasshouse) -- foremost , you need to be able to see out
2 Driving position -- you need to be in complete charge of all the controls at all times
3 Steering feel -- the primary control for me , and what gives me the most driving pleasure -- I feel in control when there is good steering feel
4 Throttle response and braking response -- ditto , but secondary to steering feel
5 Gearbox & clutch action -- again so pleasurable if it feels right ( Older , slower , rawer single clutch system is more feelsome than the slicker dual clutch system )
6 Ride quality
7 Simplicity / ability to turn off systems -- I have 2 cars that are packed with electronics , and frankly they frighten me . For the 3 cars that followed on , I deliberately chose manual transmission cars , with very simple suspension technology , and with as few electronics as possible . I love all of them , they were all chosen after much deliberation and thought ,and they are all keepers --- but I am more comfortable with the simpler cars . Maybe this is just a reflection of my age , and a more analogue mindset .
I tend to keep my cars for a very long time , and I get used to how a car talks to me as it deals with any given road imperfection/ undulation /camber change , and how it rolls or yaws through a corner .
With multiple damper adjustments available , you don't quite know ( unless you have a photographic memory , and drive that one car a lot ) how the car will behave as you drive it over a given road surface or through a given corner ---- simply because there are multiple damper settings , each of which will give you a different amount and type of feedback .
I like to know in advance how a car will react to a road surface or a corner , and for this reason alone , I regard the variability that accompanies multiple damper settings as a negative thing .
Re this list , I agree with all that is on the list , but my own priorities would be quite different .
BISPAL
1 Ride quality
2 Driving position
3 Ease of placement (view out / glasshouse)
4 Steering feel
5 Throttle response
6 Gearbox & clutch action
7 Simplicity / ability to turn off systems
MINE (IMHO)
1 Ease of placement (view out / glasshouse) -- foremost , you need to be able to see out
2 Driving position -- you need to be in complete charge of all the controls at all times
3 Steering feel -- the primary control for me , and what gives me the most driving pleasure -- I feel in control when there is good steering feel
4 Throttle response and braking response -- ditto , but secondary to steering feel
5 Gearbox & clutch action -- again so pleasurable if it feels right ( Older , slower , rawer single clutch system is more feelsome than the slicker dual clutch system )
6 Ride quality
7 Simplicity / ability to turn off systems -- I have 2 cars that are packed with electronics , and frankly they frighten me . For the 3 cars that followed on , I deliberately chose manual transmission cars , with very simple suspension technology , and with as few electronics as possible . I love all of them , they were all chosen after much deliberation and thought ,and they are all keepers --- but I am more comfortable with the simpler cars . Maybe this is just a reflection of my age , and a more analogue mindset .
PrancingHorses said:
I find it more surprising people asking if a supercar has Apple Car Play 
Thats more to do with age - although I note Porsche have just launched quite an elegant solution with Apple CarPlay or Android Auto for “heritage” cars >> https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/apple-carplay-a...Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff