Dallara,1st CF monocoque,high PtW and TtW , aero .. is it .?
Discussion
Just spent the last year writing the world,s first book on the road homologated KTM X-BOW ( 9781787114333 ) , and while KTM themselves label the car as a super sports car ( exactly what Lambo call their current mid-engined wedges ) , do the following criteria edge it anywhere closer to being called a supercar ?
World,s first production car with a full carbon composite monocoque
Wholly Dallara designed chassis (Dallara .. Lambo,s first Technical Director in1963 , F1 from Williams to Haas , every single Indycar chassis )
Loris Bicocchi ( as per Pagani Zonda , , Veryron , Chiron , Koe,egg ) ... did the full chassis set up
Pretty much hand built
Limited numbers .... currently about 1300 ( ? About the same as F40 ?)
Startling looks
Genuine aero .. again all done by Dallara ( 70 PhD,s within that tiny firm )
Bespoke
You deal directly with the factory as a customer
High Power to Weight and High Torque to Weight ratios
For the R version , 0 to 100 km/h in 3.6 seconds , and top speed of 144 mph limited by the drag that inevitably accompanies the addenda that produce downforce
Price ....? Expensive ....? Cheap ... How you view this depends on the depth of your pocket , I suppose
So the bigger question is what are the factors that make any car special enough to be called a supercar ?
World,s first production car with a full carbon composite monocoque
Wholly Dallara designed chassis (Dallara .. Lambo,s first Technical Director in1963 , F1 from Williams to Haas , every single Indycar chassis )
Loris Bicocchi ( as per Pagani Zonda , , Veryron , Chiron , Koe,egg ) ... did the full chassis set up
Pretty much hand built
Limited numbers .... currently about 1300 ( ? About the same as F40 ?)
Startling looks
Genuine aero .. again all done by Dallara ( 70 PhD,s within that tiny firm )
Bespoke
You deal directly with the factory as a customer
High Power to Weight and High Torque to Weight ratios
For the R version , 0 to 100 km/h in 3.6 seconds , and top speed of 144 mph limited by the drag that inevitably accompanies the addenda that produce downforce
Price ....? Expensive ....? Cheap ... How you view this depends on the depth of your pocket , I suppose
So the bigger question is what are the factors that make any car special enough to be called a supercar ?
carspath said:
Just spent the last year writing the world,s first book on the road homologated KTM X-BOW ( 9781787114333 ) , and while KTM themselves label the car as a super sports car ( exactly what Lambo call their current mid-engined wedges ) , do the following criteria edge it anywhere closer to being called a supercar ?
World,s first production car with a full carbon composite monocoque
Wholly Dallara designed chassis (Dallara .. Lambo,s first Technical Director in1963 , F1 from Williams to Haas , every single Indycar chassis )
Loris Bicocchi ( as per Pagani Zonda , , Veryron , Chiron , Koe,egg ) ... did the full chassis set up
Pretty much hand built
Limited numbers .... currently about 1300 ( ? About the same as F40 ?)
Startling looks
Genuine aero .. again all done by Dallara ( 70 PhD,s within that tiny firm )
Bespoke
You deal directly with the factory as a customer
High Power to Weight and High Torque to Weight ratios
For the R version , 0 to 100 km/h in 3.6 seconds , and top speed of 144 mph limited by the drag that inevitably accompanies the addenda that produce downforce
Price ....? Expensive ....? Cheap ... How you view this depends on the depth of your pocket , I suppose
So the bigger question is what are the factors that make any car special enough to be called a supercar ?
Might help to ask the odd R8 owner World,s first production car with a full carbon composite monocoque
Wholly Dallara designed chassis (Dallara .. Lambo,s first Technical Director in1963 , F1 from Williams to Haas , every single Indycar chassis )
Loris Bicocchi ( as per Pagani Zonda , , Veryron , Chiron , Koe,egg ) ... did the full chassis set up
Pretty much hand built
Limited numbers .... currently about 1300 ( ? About the same as F40 ?)
Startling looks
Genuine aero .. again all done by Dallara ( 70 PhD,s within that tiny firm )
Bespoke
You deal directly with the factory as a customer
High Power to Weight and High Torque to Weight ratios
For the R version , 0 to 100 km/h in 3.6 seconds , and top speed of 144 mph limited by the drag that inevitably accompanies the addenda that produce downforce
Price ....? Expensive ....? Cheap ... How you view this depends on the depth of your pocket , I suppose
So the bigger question is what are the factors that make any car special enough to be called a supercar ?
Are you sure about the claim that it’s the world’s first production car with carbon fibre monocoque? The X-Bow was launched in 2008. What about the early 1990s Bugatti EB110, McLaren F1 and SLR, Ferrari F50 and Enzo, Porsche Carrera GT, Zonda, Koenigsegg, Veyron etc.? Or am I missing something?
Thank you all for joining in this chat .
Woodynut -- The R8 and F Type threads made me want to know what factors PH'ers regarded as key criteria for labelling a car as '' special '' ---- and the X-Bow seemed a suitable vehicle ( pun intended) with which to investigate this .
LotusOmega375D -- of course you are completely correct in saying that there were many other cars with CF tubs prior to 1998 , which is when the X-BOW made its debut .
KTM were very specific in using the word PRODUCTION when making their World-First claim .
And in truth , KTM were being honest when they made this claim , as the X-BOW was designed and targeted at the mass trackday / extreme roadcar market .
The original business case was to make up to 1000 cars per year , and there was never any limit put on the number of units that would be produced in total .
All the other cars mentioned (EB110 , F1 , SLR , etc etc) were always designed and marketed as limited edition cars ….. so were not '' production '' cars .
The 2008/2009 financial crisis muted demand for the X-BOW , and this was compounded by the much higher than anticipated cost of building an X-BOW .
I can remember being approached in 2007 by KTM with an offer to get hold of one of the first X-BOW's at a cost of about £37500 .
Within 12 months the base price had increased by about 50 % ( and almost doubled once desirable options were added on )
So the X-BOW priced itself out of its target market ( which had already shrunk in any case with the recession ) , and hence the rarity of the car ( admittedly amongst other reasons ) .
But the X-BOW was meant to be a mass production car , with no pre-placed limit on the numbers made , and hence KTM's claim of '' The world's first production car with a full carbon composite monocoque ''
Woodynut -- The R8 and F Type threads made me want to know what factors PH'ers regarded as key criteria for labelling a car as '' special '' ---- and the X-Bow seemed a suitable vehicle ( pun intended) with which to investigate this .
LotusOmega375D -- of course you are completely correct in saying that there were many other cars with CF tubs prior to 1998 , which is when the X-BOW made its debut .
KTM were very specific in using the word PRODUCTION when making their World-First claim .
And in truth , KTM were being honest when they made this claim , as the X-BOW was designed and targeted at the mass trackday / extreme roadcar market .
The original business case was to make up to 1000 cars per year , and there was never any limit put on the number of units that would be produced in total .
All the other cars mentioned (EB110 , F1 , SLR , etc etc) were always designed and marketed as limited edition cars ….. so were not '' production '' cars .
The 2008/2009 financial crisis muted demand for the X-BOW , and this was compounded by the much higher than anticipated cost of building an X-BOW .
I can remember being approached in 2007 by KTM with an offer to get hold of one of the first X-BOW's at a cost of about £37500 .
Within 12 months the base price had increased by about 50 % ( and almost doubled once desirable options were added on )
So the X-BOW priced itself out of its target market ( which had already shrunk in any case with the recession ) , and hence the rarity of the car ( admittedly amongst other reasons ) .
But the X-BOW was meant to be a mass production car , with no pre-placed limit on the numbers made , and hence KTM's claim of '' The world's first production car with a full carbon composite monocoque ''
None of the other cars mentioned m(as far as I'm aware) were numbered limited edition cars. I get that there is a finite number of them due to production ceasing, but there is a finite number of any car, be it an F50 or a VW Beetle.
So when does a "limited edition" become a "production car" ? Is it defined by units built ?
So when does a "limited edition" become a "production car" ? Is it defined by units built ?
I agree with a great deal of what you have all said .
Except that re the build quality , which in fact is exemplary - I can only compare it with a Merc W124 from the 80's - absolutely solid .
Sadly , many cars have been played with by aftermarket tuners , which carries a two-fold price . A standard car as it left the production line , albeit rare , is robust , and as it is a simple car with little electronics , there is less to go wrong .
Interesting that you can have so many of the correct constituent parts , yet they don't add up to a supercar .
A case of being lesser than the sum of its parts ( to some people )
Except that re the build quality , which in fact is exemplary - I can only compare it with a Merc W124 from the 80's - absolutely solid .
Sadly , many cars have been played with by aftermarket tuners , which carries a two-fold price . A standard car as it left the production line , albeit rare , is robust , and as it is a simple car with little electronics , there is less to go wrong .
Interesting that you can have so many of the correct constituent parts , yet they don't add up to a supercar .
A case of being lesser than the sum of its parts ( to some people )
Love the X-Bows, always have had a keen interest in KTM. I think one problem is that to the masses it is perceived as a kit car - which in their eyes means a cheap alternative to a 'real' sports car. I could imagine some people thinking this was a £15k DIY kit. Meaning to the average chap on the street it doesn't seem unobtainable.
Yes , there is a lot of exposed carbon fibre on display in the X-BOW .
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc, etc , but the car is certainly striking --- and is a case of form following function .
if you google '' 9781787114333 '' , you will see a factory standard car , unaltered from the time it left the KTM production line -- and you will see that when an X-BOW has not been mutilated by the aftermarket , it has an unusual beauty of its own .
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc, etc , but the car is certainly striking --- and is a case of form following function .
if you google '' 9781787114333 '' , you will see a factory standard car , unaltered from the time it left the KTM production line -- and you will see that when an X-BOW has not been mutilated by the aftermarket , it has an unusual beauty of its own .
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