Why is the MP4 12C so heavy?

[Fantuzzi]

This has been bothering me, because its got a lightweight engine, cf tub, yet its 1400kg. ( EDIT-I keep reading differing weights, some are saying 1300kg dry, but thats still heavier than a CS...)

Why?

The Gallardo 550-2 is 1380KG, with a far larger engine and far less attention to lightness.

I know most people shout safety as soon as weight is mention, yet its still heavier than others in its class, just wondering why, and thought you would be the best people to ask! I know its got some clever stuff going on tech wise, but I couldnt imagine it would make it that much heavier given the OCD levels of attention at Mclaren.



Thanks

Edited by Fantuzzi on Tuesday 26th February 18:06

[mpbcs]

Tbh, it really does not feel like a heavy car.. Feels lighter than my old gt3 when behind the wheel. It is packed full of spec that makes it comfy though and that weights alot (heated electric seats etc)

[Fantuzzi]

mpbcs said:

Tbh, it really does not feel like a heavy car.. Feels lighter than my old gt3 when behind the wheel. It is packed full of spec that makes it comfy though and that weights alot (heated electric seats etc)

No doubt it feels great, just suprised the weight isnt lower than much of the rivals by quite a significant margin given the attentiion to lightness.

[JamieBeeston]

Fantuzzi said:

mpbcs said:

Tbh, it really does not feel like a heavy car.. Feels lighter than my old gt3 when behind the wheel. It is packed full of spec that makes it comfy though and that weights alot (heated electric seats etc)

No doubt it feels great, just suprised the weight isnt lower than much of the rivals by quite a significant margin given the attentiion to lightness.

How much would lighter would you expect it to be ?

[Pesty]

Its still faster than the slightly lighter other cars.

[Fantuzzi]

JamieBeeston said:

Fantuzzi said:

mpbcs said:

Tbh, it really does not feel like a heavy car.. Feels lighter than my old gt3 when behind the wheel. It is packed full of spec that makes it comfy though and that weights alot (heated electric seats etc)

No doubt it feels great, just suprised the weight isnt lower than much of the rivals by quite a significant margin given the attentiion to lightness.

How much would lighter would you expect it to be ?

Well I suppose given all the effort about 1200-50, Ive been reading its 1300kg dry which is about 80kg less than the rivals 'dry' weight, which wasnt as bad as the stats I had read which were stating it was 1400kg. So my intial 'gosh thats heavy' feeling has gone slightly, but its by no means a 'light' car given the amount of emphasis of lightness Mclaren have spoke about.

It wouldnt really have bothered me so much just that I was reading about how lightness was key to the car on their site, then looked up some stats that didnt really back up Mclarens claims, I assumed it might be just the large amount of tech on board as the other poster stated the car comes with lots of toys, but still thought it would be under 1300kg.

Perhaps you're a good person to ask about CF weight saving, given you own a F40 (although Im not assuming you have an infinite knoweldge of automotive materials!), I assumed the weight saving would be more significant over a more conventional tub (it seems the Mclaren tub weights 80kgs. I cant seem to find if the 12c has CF panels, but I think its 'SMC'.

Perhaps on a car so stocked I was hasty.

[SonnyM]

How many manufacturers are putting out accurate weights with a standard definition across the board?

How much do GT3s, 458s and Aventadors really weigh as opposed to the marketing claims?

It is possible McLaren are being accurate and that their car isn't far off or is actually better than the competition...

[mpbcs]

The 12c doesn't have cf panels but most are a plastic composite, so very light. It also has a double clutch gearbox and they are significantly heavier than a single clutch automated box or a manual... Prob around 50+kg (but a guess)

[Olivera]

SonnyM said:

How many manufacturers are putting out accurate weights with a standard definition across the board?

How much do GT3s, 458s and Aventadors really weigh as opposed to the marketing claims?

It is possible McLaren are being accurate and that their car isn't far off or is actually better than the competition...

Lamborghini LP 560-4 dry weight: 1410kg
Autocar LP 560-4 actual weight: 1580kg

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/lamborghini/ga...

I suspect when one has put aside 'manufacture' weights and specially prepared ringers, production MP4 12C are light-weight indeed.

[kbf1981]

Olivera said:

SonnyM said:

How many manufacturers are putting out accurate weights with a standard definition across the board?

How much do GT3s, 458s and Aventadors really weigh as opposed to the marketing claims?

It is possible McLaren are being accurate and that their car isn't far off or is actually better than the competition...

Lamborghini LP 560-4 dry weight: 1410kg
Autocar LP 560-4 actual weight: 1580kg

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/lamborghini/ga...

I suspect when one has put aside 'manufacture' weights and specially prepared ringers, production MP4 12C are light-weight indeed.

Both 4wd - the front drive shaft I think weighs 50kg? MP4 dry weight of 1300kg vs. LP550 of 1380kg sounds very good when you consider the MP4's double clutch. The LP's are tiny so should be light.

[Fantuzzi]

kbf1981 said:

Olivera said:

SonnyM said:

How many manufacturers are putting out accurate weights with a standard definition across the board?

How much do GT3s, 458s and Aventadors really weigh as opposed to the marketing claims?

It is possible McLaren are being accurate and that their car isn't far off or is actually better than the competition...

Lamborghini LP 560-4 dry weight: 1410kg
Autocar LP 560-4 actual weight: 1580kg

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/lamborghini/ga...

I suspect when one has put aside 'manufacture' weights and specially prepared ringers, production MP4 12C are light-weight indeed.

Both 4wd - the front drive shaft I think weighs 50kg? MP4 dry weight of 1300kg vs. LP550 of 1380kg sounds very good when you consider the MP4's double clutch. The LP's are tiny so should be light.

[If I could edit the title it would read 'why arent the mp4 12c's lighter', I read some wrong info on its weight, so thought its dry weight was 1400kg, its my fault not reading enough, so sorry for sounding thick.]

But lets use the 550 as a good comparison.

I would assume given the 5 perecent rule (where everything on the car is made, then remade with 5 percent weight reduction), the CF tub and the lightweight v8 turbo, it would be say 100-150kg lighter than the 550, which is rather long in tooth now compaired to the 12c!

[f2wheels]

Yes I argee that the Mclaren is heavy, just weighed my 1972 Detomaso Pantera at 1338Kgs with Longacre corner weight scales.
The Pantera is all steel constuction with an all iron Ford V8 5.8 litres and 1972 technology.

[Isebac]

If you want to get serious about comparing car weights, you need to start looking at actually measured weights first. Manufacturer weight claims, especially those that mention dry weight, are often nothing but wishful thinking. Here are weights, measured by magazines, of the 12C and its contemporary competitors:

12C - 1460kg
LP570SL - 1490kg
550-2 - 1500kg
458 - 1520kg
LP560-4 - 1550kg
997 Turbo S - 1595kg
LFA - 1610kg

Its dry weight almost certainly is higher than 1300kg, but nevertheless, it was the lightest car in its class by some margin. If you think the car should have been even lighter, then I would imagine you have been a victim of Mclaren's successful marketing. Just because some company makes claims about how laser focused they are on shedding weight, and about how light their components are, doesn't mean the result is gonna be any lighter than that of competitors, who - after all - are not exactly trying to make their cars out of lead.

You mention CF tub and "lightweight V8 turbo" as the reasons it should be even lighter. Well... CF construction itself doesn't guarantee light weight. Just look at the Lexus LFA - chassis and body made out of CF, a V10 that "weighs less than a V6" and yet it's the heaviest car in the comparison. Similarly, the Aventador, with its CF tub is also quite heavy at around 1800kg, no lighter than the aluminium F12/812. The "lightweight" turbo V8 in the Mclarens is also probably not that light. Mclaren claim "199kg" weight for the engine, but that's almost certainly without either turbos, exhaust, intercoolers, or without any ancillaries (or combination of the two). The real weight of the engine is probably closer to 230-240kg. It could very well be heavier than the Gallardo V10 for which a weight of 215kg is claimed. Other areas where the 12C will gain weight compared to the Gallardo will be the DCT and also its active suspension. Other than that, there might be an unending list of decisions or parts that could make it lighter/heavier than comparable cars. What you also need to realize that even supercars use a LOT of off the shelf parts - nobody has the money to newly engineer every one of the thousands of components on the car from scratch. So the weights are never gonna differ THAT much.

Edited by Isebac on Thursday 18th February 18:51

[LotusJas]

Fantuzzi said:

Why?

Simple answer is that McLaren are one of very few manufacturers who don't lie about the car's weight.

Look at Brooks' (DragTimes) weighing his own 720S vs his F8 Tributo for example. The 720S was bang on the claimed weight....the F8, not even close.

[Bispal]

If you want to compare old cars with new you have to do it like for like.

The Elise S1 was 725 kg
The Elsie S3 is (or was as of now) 930 kg.

The extra weight 'probably' all legislated safety equipment, electronics, crash protection etc.

So that's an additional 200 kg or an additional 27% and if anyone can keep weight down Lotus can so that will be the best possible attempt to keep legislated weight down.

Apply the same logic to a '1460' kg 12C and its equivalent 1990's weight would have been 1,140 kg. And actually the F1 was 1,138kg! The same as a modern Exige.

If you want a lightweight supercar the 12C was about the lightest you could buy at the time. A supercar has to do many things and is not always a sports car. If you want lighter you need a sportscar not a supercar, buy an Exige CUP and live with the compromises that entails (for some people - I think its great) but even a contemporary 991 GT3 RS was 1,430 kg!