Supercars For Sale

[NRG1976]

jasonrobertson86 said:

Griffith4ever said:

You'd have to be a proper melon to get caught out by this. i.e. you let the buyer pay you from an account that does not match his name / someone elses' account. Plus.... if you move the funds to another account immediately, no reversal can happen.

I don't believe reversal can happen full stop. Am I wrong?

Of course it can and yes you are wrong.

[Griffith4ever]

jasonrobertson86 said:

Ken_Code said:

If the sender alleges fraud, or if they say it was sent in error then the banks have the mechanism and the right to reverse the transaction.

For those asking “how”, I’m not sure what they are looking for. The bank sends the money to the bank account it came from, just as they send money in millions of transactions every day.

That's odd because when you send money to someone on my banking app it clearly says that transactions CANNOT be reversed so please ensure this is a legitimate transaction.

The mechanism to reverse a BACS payment is limited and has a short time window. They don't have the mechanism to "dip into" your current account and take money off you, just like no one else other than YOUR bank or YOU can. When they reverse a BACS transaction it has to be done very quickly (I assume in the ten to twenty minutes it often takes for funds to change yoru account balance -i.e. cleared). When I transfer money from my bus account into my personal account (different banks) the transaction shows immediately in my target account, but the balance does not update until its cleared 10-20 mins later. This is their time window I believe.

Like I said, it is a very limited opportunity and very rare. Every single time I've queried anyone on forums that claim it happened to them, ultimately, they got their money in the end, normally after the transaction was put on hold due to suspicious activity.

BACS is safe. The trading world would grind to a halt if not. I've xferred 50k plus at a car dealers, and as SOON as it showed in their account - I got to drive away. They would not take the risk if it were risky....

[jasonrobertson86]

Griffith4ever said:

The mechanism to reverse a BACS payment is limited and has a short time window. They don't have the mechanism to "dip into" your current account and take money off you, just like no one else other than YOUR bank or YOU can. When they reverse a BACS transaction it has to be done very quickly (I assume in the ten to twenty minutes it often takes for funds to change yoru account balance -i.e. cleared). When I transfer money from my bus account into my personal account (different banks) the transaction shows immediately in my target account, but the balance does not update until its cleared 10-20 mins later. This is their time window I believe.

Like I said, it is a very limited opportunity and very rare. Every single time I've queried anyone on forums that claim it happened to them, ultimately, they got their money in the end, normally after the transaction was put on hold due to suspicious activity.

BACS is safe. The trading world would grind to a halt if not. I've xferred 50k plus at a car dealers, and as SOON as it showed in their account - I got to drive away. They would not take the risk if it were risky....

Exactly. We just have a couple of, let call them, 'folks', who are making it sound like a genuine high risk. If this was so easy to do, dealers would never accept this method, as you say.

[DMZ]

I don’t think I have ever bought a car privately but have sold many privately. I’m actually surprised that buyers are good with bank transfers in a private sale. I wouldn’t be comfortable with that risk personally: transferring money and hoping there’s a car at the other end. But good that the trust is there. As a seller it’s easily the safest method.

[NRG1976]

Griffith4ever said:

jasonrobertson86 said:

Ken_Code said:

If the sender alleges fraud, or if they say it was sent in error then the banks have the mechanism and the right to reverse the transaction.

For those asking “how”, I’m not sure what they are looking for. The bank sends the money to the bank account it came from, just as they send money in millions of transactions every day.

That's odd because when you send money to someone on my banking app it clearly says that transactions CANNOT be reversed so please ensure this is a legitimate transaction.

The mechanism to reverse a BACS payment is limited and has a short time window. They don't have the mechanism to "dip into" your current account and take money off you, just like no one else other than YOUR bank or YOU can. When they reverse a BACS transaction it has to be done very quickly (I assume in the ten to twenty minutes it often takes for funds to change yoru account balance -i.e. cleared). When I transfer money from my bus account into my personal account (different banks) the transaction shows immediately in my target account, but the balance does not update until its cleared 10-20 mins later. This is their time window I believe.

Like I said, it is a very limited opportunity and very rare. Every single time I've queried anyone on forums that claim it happened to them, ultimately, they got their money in the end, normally after the transaction was put on hold due to suspicious activity.

BACS is safe. The trading world would grind to a halt if not. I've xferred 50k plus at a car dealers, and as SOON as it showed in their account - I got to drive away. They would not take the risk if it were risky....

In a bona fide case you should be ok, however if you’re thought to be party to the fraud then reversals have and do happen.

[ATM]

jasonrobertson86 said:

That's odd because when you send money to someone on my banking app it clearly says that transactions CANNOT be reversed so please ensure this is a legitimate transaction.

Get something into your head. Banks are never looking after You. They are only ever looking after themselves. If there is any reason for them to take the money you think is yours they will do it, or rather not let you have it. Money in a Bank belongs to the Bank. Whenever you deposit money into a Bank it is then theirs. It is no longer yours. Think of it like you are loaning it to the Bank. An unsecured loan too. They can do whatever they want with it. Gamble or make investments with it. Yes there are rules and regulations governing what they can and can't do. But the money is still theirs. Why do you think there is deposit protection or whatever its called. Why would we need the government to backstop a situation where Banks can not pay us back?

[jasonrobertson86]

ATM said:

Get something into your head.

Fiesty one. This is as much as I will be reading with that tone.

[ATM]

jasonrobertson86 said:

ATM said:

Get something into your head.

Fiesty one. This is as much as I will be reading with that tone.

Sorry

Pet peev of mine that people don't understand how Banks work

And seem to have already forgotten the Global Financial Crisis from 2008

Banks take your money and play around with it to make massive profits

They pay themselves and their bosses massive salaries or bonuses

Then if something goes wrong the government bails them out

By creating Inflation

Which we all pay for

[TwoMinds]

In the UK at least, retail deposits are ring fenced which means they can't be used for investment banking purposes. Back on topic, if a seller is worried about a funds transfer being quickly reversed they could mandate CHAPS only from the buyer. And be careful to communicate with the buyer in writing so that there is evidence of a sale if is later disputed.

[Ken_Code]

Well, after having my car on sale-or-return for three weeks I sold to a nice man from Warrington for £2k less than the SOR price would have yielded me, so a little less than I hoped for, but not too bad.

He sent me a deposit based on my description and the photographs, and transferred the balance after he came to see it, and was happy that it was indeed immaculate (and real.)

So in the end there weren’t too many time-wasters and tyre-kickers, just one (I hope) satisfied buyer getting a nearly-new car for a price he was happy to pay.

[murphyaj]

ATM said:

murphyaj said:

And no, bank transfers can't be recalled as long as it is a direct transfer from a UK bank to a UK bank. Once it's in your account it's your money.

Not true

However I am not an expert

Firstly let's be clear and say that any money in a bank is not your money it is the Banks but moving on

I heard about a scam recently on these very pages. So yes I am just regurgitating and it could all be baloney.

I did a search and found this thread - link below. It is not the scam I was thinking of but clearly has several examples where people have seen transactions reversed. I believe if the Banks decide there may have been some Fraud they can reverse.

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Thanks, this is new information to me. I honestly thought that once it showed up as cleared funds that was that. I have since checked my banks terms and you're right, there is a dispute process which allows funds to be recovered.

Last time I sold I car the buyer and I physically went into a branch of his bank, and he made the transfer having showed them his ID and gone through their security checks. That was his idea as he wanted to ensure it went smoothly, but perhaps I will insist on that in future, as I imagine it would be very, very ,very hard to claim any kind of fraud in that case.

I'll also immediately transfer it out to another bank ASAP so they can't take back my money and leave me to chase it.

[ATM]

TwoMinds said:

In the UK at least, retail deposits are ring fenced which means they can't be used for investment banking purposes.

Ok

But they have to do something with these deposits.

Can they buy 'risk free' stuff like government debt or government bonds.

Let's assume they can.

So retail deposits flow in during the good times. We are all flush with cash because interest rates are low and the economy is booming. The banks then buy 10 / 20 / 30 year government bonds paying 3 or 2% - just guessing.

BOOM

Interest rates blast up quickly to 5 or 6%.

When interest rates change then bond values move but in the opposite direction. Interest rates Up - bond values go Down. The longer the duration the higher the multiplier.

Now the high street bank who has our retail deposits ring fenced and invested in 'risk free' government bonds sees their investments drop significantly in value in a very short time because interest rates were raised quickly. What can they do about this - answer nothing in the short term.

Now this isn't necessarily a big problem if the bank can just hold these instruments to the end of their term. Remember this was 10 / 20 / 30 years. But it is still a shortfall on their balance sheet because the value of these assets on their balance sheet has gone down. Remember the retail depositer didn't promise to leave their deposits with the bank for any length of time. So effectively the bank is borrowing money from depositors short term and investing this in debt based instruments long term. Do you see the duration risk?

Now because interest rates have gone up the economy starts to slow down and all these people flush with cash become less flush and start pulling money out of their bank accounts or bank account balances drop or trend down overall. For a while the bank is OK as it can find the money to give back to depositors asking for it or it can start liquidating it's healthier assets. Eventually it has to start to liquidate its underwater assets, those long dated government debt instruments which have lost value. This is how the high street bank effectively becomes insolvent and is the start of a run on the bank.

So are ring fenced deposits really that secure?

Is there zero risk?

Here is a simpler way to think about it - why does the government still think we need their bank deposits protection? Just having this in place implies it is possible it might be needed one day.

I also believe giving banks this safety net allows them to be more risky. But moving on....

What happens when too big to fail, does fail?

Will the government have enough money to pay everyone who claims?

Now think about the effect that could ripple through our financial markets if a big bank starts dumping lots of their long dated uk government debt. Will there be enough buyers on the other side to absorb this. Initially it will have the effect of lowering values as more is sold. Remember the opposite effect - this could force interest rates to increase.

Remember when Liz Trust got sacked after only 6 weeks as PM. The reason was long dated uk government debt went no bid. For a brief spell there were absolutely no buyers in the uk government debt market. Sellers were trying to sell. No buyers turned up. No one was willing to buy at any price. This means in theory that interest rates went to infinity. The Bank of England had to come to the rescue by printing more funny money to buy uk government debt just at a time when it had stopped QE and was in the middle of QT. Of course it didn't call it QE.

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/news/2022/septembe...

bankOfEngland said:

This repricing has become more significant in the past day – and it is particularly affecting long-dated UK government debt. Were dysfunction in this market to continue or worsen, there would be a material risk to UK financial stability. This would lead to an unwarranted tightening of financing conditions and a reduction of the flow of credit to the real economy.

This next paragraph should have people seriously concerned but no-one seems to care?

In simple terms or simpler language

Bank of England had to buy

Otherwise it would have been game over, the end, financial armageddon

They will buy all and everything without limit so basically everything on sale

What this really means is they are artificially manipulating prices up. Remember if buyers aren't willing to pay high prices then sellers have to offer lower prices to get a sale or they can't sell. Lower prices means higher interest rates. If there is no limit on the amount they will buy then absolutely every holder of long dated uk government debt with even half a brain was now quickly selling all their toxic long dated uk government debt holdings to the BoE.

bankOfEngland said:

To achieve this, the Bank will carry out temporary purchases of long-dated UK government bonds from 28 September. The purpose of these purchases will be to restore orderly market conditions. The purchases will be carried out on whatever scale is necessary to effect this outcome. The operation will be fully indemnified by HM Treasury.

[NRG1976]

Deposits ring fenced in UK. These deposits can be used to lend customer mortgages, credit cards and loans etc. The spread between asset and liability is where the margin generation starts. Surplus deposits placed overnight with BoE to earn base rate.