Non-TVR wheels for Cerbera

[johnmckenzie]

The paint finish on my 17" 4.5 Cerbera wheels was pretty ropey from new. Now the car is 4 years old, its coming off of three of the wheels in sheets (literally!!) Given that one of the wheels has now also got a fair bit of run out due to pothole damage it's time to think of a change.
Has anyone out there had experience of fitting high quality non-TVR wheels to their Cerbera? I'm really loath to buy a replacement set of 17" or 18" TVR wheels due to what seems to be a continuing raft of problems. The original 18" wheels were recalled and I see that some doubts are being expressed about the integrity of even the revised 18" wheel. Owners on some threads are also reporting probems on the 18" Tuscan "spider" wheel. Seems like non-TVR is the smart way to go.
I'm thinking along the lines of Speedline, BBS, Rial, OZ Racing, Fondmetal or even really serious kit (if the wallet can stand it) like Dymag.
Help/comments/experience please!

Regards

John

[plotloss]

I've just read that Superlite the people who do the classic wheels for the proper Mini have just started doing a split rim Superlite in large sizes of up to 17 inches and widths in half inch increments of 6.5 - 12.5 (!!!). They can be drilled to order and supplied with any offset and they are split rims so if you bang the rim, it can just be replaced.

Nice classic alternative I think they would be, might see if I can get one fitted to the Chim to see how it looks. God knows I've spent enough on their products in the past!

Matt.

[Alistair H.]

John,

For the money, I think the spider wheels both look the dogs, and are good value. - I have tham and have no problems. You must be looking at double that for decent OZ or BBS stuff.

Cheers

Al.

[richb]

quote:...Has anyone out there had experience of fitting high quality non-TVR wheels to their Cerbera? I'm really loath to buy a replacement set of 17" or 18" TVR wheels due to what seems to be a continuing raft of problems. ...Seems like non-TVR is the smart way to go... I'm thinking along the lines of Speedline... etc. Regards John

Interesting the perception of TVR isn't it. Somehow even us, who own the things, believe the urban myth that everything TVR is crap quality! Like this thread for instance; where do you think the wheels TVR use come from? Certainly TVR don't make them, as far as I'm aware they don't have their own foundry to cast them. Fact is the original Cerbera wheels (RL-7's) were made by Raceline who are now owned by Speedline. I'm not sure who makes the Spider wheels but no doubt someone will know - in the past TVR have also used OZ. So to be fair it's not really a case of non-TVR wheels is it? Rich...

[Pedestrian]

..everything TVR is crap quality..

Incedently, how many of the parts that fail are actually manufactured by TVR? Is it just that they can't bolt them together very well or underspec/badly spec?

Recent Cerbera threads, (and wading through the cars' profiles on these esteemed pages) have forced me to reconsider, in reality I couldn't afford the running costs of the Cerb - on the bright side though i'll have a Chim much sooner, which was the origonal motivation when I started saving !!)

BTW, hi everyone! Very informative and entertaining forum. Any chance of crashing (pun intended) the next Bristol meet?

[johnmckenzie]

quote:
Fact is the original Cerbera wheels (RL-7's) were made by Raceline who are now owned by Speedline.

I think you are rather insulting our intelligence if you believe we think TVR makes their own wheels. I know that Raceline made the original 17" wheels and I know that Speedline acquired them. I also know that the Cerbera wheels are not current RL-7's because I have just had a look at a set of them in the flesh. Whilst the pattern is similar there appears to be some significant differences on the centre spider and rim (which is more substantial) and the quality of casting and finish is in a totally different league to anything TVR have used since the OZ Saturns fitted to the Griff 500 (see, I know OZ was a supplier too!).
Fact is, TVR buy to a price like all OEM's do and it's not unusual for OEM's to end up with "2nd quality" parts from suppliers, particularly where low volumes are concerned in order to make some profit. I know that to be a fact as I was in engineering and production management for Ford for 11 years followed by 9 years at the largest parts operation in the UK (Unipart) and some of the stuff sent in by suppliers was often laughable. Our own quality control procedures would usually pick up dodgy stuff coming in but occasionally some slipped through the net. You just have to see the bloody awful finish on my (optional)18" 2 piece BBS wheels fitted to my Volvo C70 coupe to see the truth of that - and we are talking over £1500 a set of 4 for those. If you walked into a specialist dealer to purchase them and saw the condition, you would spin on your heel and walk straight out again.
As for other TVR quality being poor, factually it often is as is evidenced from actual, not imagined, problems that people report on numerous threads. I'm not implying that it's TVR manufactured parts that always fail but TVR do design, engineer and assemble the car and contract with their suppliers to provide parts to TVR specification and too much c**p does slip through the net. It's TVR's responsibility to ensure that their suppliers are in line with reasonable quality standards. For goodness sake, other manufacturers have operated SQA (Supplier Quality Assurance) systems for 20 or more years now which is why things like starter motors and instruments, which have an apalling reliability record on the Cerbera, often last 10 or more years and 150,000 miles on a Ford, BMW, Volvo, etc.
It doesn't stop most of us owning TVR's but my bet is that the vast majority of us have a long suffering love/hate relationship. All of which still doesn't serve to answer my question which I'll spell out in more precise language to avoid being flamed again!!
"Anyone out there with experience of fitted non-TVR ORIGINAL FACTORY FIT wheels to their Cerbera?"

Regards

John

[richb]

quote:I think you are rather insulting our intelligence if you believe we think TVR makes their own wheels.

Err. no I just gave a straight reply to your original thread. It was you who suggetsed TVR make their own wheels not me.

quote:(I know OZ was a supplier too!)

Good then now you understand why I gave the answer I did

quote:Fact is, TVR buy to a price like all OEM's do and it's not unusual for OEM's to end up with "2nd quality" parts from suppliers, particularly where low volumes are concerned in order to make some profit. I know that to be a fact as I was in engineering

So are you suggesting the wheels TVR use are "Seconds" (and I don't think I have quoted you out of context here)

quote:For goodness sake, other manufacturers have operated SQA (Supplier Quality Assurance)

no need to impress me with jargon

quote: All of which still doesn't serve to answer my question which I'll spell out in more precise language to avoid being flamed again!! "Anyone out there with experience of fitted non-TVR ORIGINAL FACTORY FIT wheels to their Cerbera?"

Ooo touchy, didn't realise I had flamed you but if you say so... How was I to know you are a TVR 'officionado' it is difficult to gauge knowledge over the net so I took your question at face value - and, having just re-read it I stand by my reply, sorry if you take that the wrong way Rich...

[mlumb]

It might be worth talking to R-TEC autodesign in St albans,01727 790100,ask for Russell. They fixed me up with some Azev alloys for my 390se.Azev alloys can be ordered to your exact spec.Mine were machined for offset and stud pattern in Germany and then sent over.:245/35,17,R 215/40,17,F. £932 inc tyres.I know its a completely different car but they were very helpful and able to accomadate the more unusual cars we drive.Hope this helps.

[tvradict]

quote:
As for other TVR quality being poor, factually it often is as is evidenced from actual, not imagined, problems that people report on numerous threads. I'm not implying that it's TVR manufactured parts that always fail but TVR do design, engineer and assemble the car and contract with their suppliers to provide parts to TVR specification and too much c**p does slip through the net. It's TVR's responsibility to ensure that their suppliers are in line with reasonable quality standards. For goodness sake, other manufacturers have operated SQA (Supplier Quality Assurance) systems for 20 or more years now which is why things like starter motors and instruments, which have an apalling reliability record on the Cerbera, often last 10 or more years and 150,000 miles on a Ford, BMW, Volvo, etc.

Not wanting to start a war (I got to use it ) but are you comparing TVR Engineering, Blackpool! To Volvo, BMW and FORD?!?!?!

I think I can explain why the build quality on some of the cars is not up to scratch!! HUMAN! TVR's are handbuilt (As you know) Volvo's, BMW's and Ford's are built by machine! Which one will make the mistake??
Back when Volvo automised their production line, it was the most sophisticated production line ever seen!! FULLY COMPUTERISED!!! Everything! (I did learn something in Higher Computing!) If you tell a robot/computer/machine to do something, it will do it time after time after time after time after time after time after time perfectly, it will put everything in exactly the same place each time, to the nearest nano-milimeter! Ask a human to do the same thing! They couldn't do it! People make mistakes, get things wrong etc! It is unfair to try and compare handbuilt cars to mass produced CAM cars!
On the quality check side of things, as they are handbuilt they would have to go over every car again, as if they were building it, I believe that is how they check them on the mass production lines! But on the CAM lines they take 1 every 100 or so, TVR would have to do each one in turn! But the quality needs to be improved although I do believe that the quality is much better on the Tamora!

[griff2be]

Mr tvradict: not sure why assembly by an automated line makes all the difference? Fit and finish might be improved, but it doesn't explain why, for example, starter motors fail regularly. And how would you explain the quality of other handbuilt cars like Rolls Royces, Morgan's etc.. Come to think of it, I think the M Power engine in my BMW is largely hand built...

What might explain the difference is the amount of time and effort (= money) spent on development. BMW or Ford etc would not design a car with the exhaust manifolds passing next to the starter, causing it to overheat. Or if they did, they'd discover the problem in hunderds of thousands of testing miles, then sort it.

Its not a criticism of TVR - but when you are developing a car that will sell for £36k in the very low volumes TVR produce, there is just no way they can develop and test to the same degree as the volume manufacturers.

Anyone remember those dreadful Fiats that fell apart and rusted in no time. Automated production line and the advertising campaign was 'built by robots'.

I preferred the Not the Nine o'clock News parody 'built by Roberts' (oi Bob, pass the torque wrench....)

Showing my age now...

[johnmckenzie]

Stuart, I absolutely and totally agree with everything you say. I'm referring in this instance to 1)TVR's suppliers (who in many cases are the same ones used by OEM's all around the world and 2) TVR's apparent lack of SQA procedures to ensure that supplier quality is maintained. Take the example of starter motors. I've met or been in contact with, off and on around 50 Cerbera owners through forums, track days or roadside chats. Of those with Cerbera's over 20,000 miles old (around 7 or 8) every single one has had a replacement starter (me included). Now that's a small sample I grant you but a 100% failure rate on starter motors at or over 20,000 miles suggests a bit of a problem - either with the spec or the supplier. Looking back through threads on this site, some of hwhich are very recent, 3, 4, 5, 6 or even 7 replacements have been made on some cars. The starter motor problem has been around since day 1 of Cerbera production, i.e since 1996. Is it too much to expect someone to fix the problem? The same applies to gauges (especially tachos and oil pressure) top wishbone bushes, front disc warping on 4.5's, and on and on and on. I expect problems from low volume cars, it's in the nature of the beast and fair enough ........ but I also expect somebody to care enough to fix it properly once and for all! Lets not forget, £50,000+ is a hell of a lot of money.

Anyway, back to wheels - keep posts coming please

Regards

John

[johnmckenzie]

quote:
Ooo touchy, didn't realise I had flamed you but if you say so... How was I to know you are a TVR 'officionado' it is difficult to gauge knowledge over the net so I took your question at face value - and, having just re-read it I stand by my reply, sorry if you take that the wrong way Rich...

Apology accepted and sorry Rich. Bad hair day and I sometimes get frustrated at posts assuming I'm coming from zero knowledge. It's easy to forget the threads are used (quite rightly) by newbies to the world of TVR.

I see you also have a T5 estate - clearly a man of taste, discernment and a sense of humour. I had an 850 T5 estate too before the C70 and thought that driving a 150mph garden shed was a hoot as well as being able to carry half the house in it. Still can't get over the frustration of the BMW 328/Merc 320/Golf VR6/Audi crowd at being eaten by a mere Volvo.

Regards

John

[richb]

quote:Apology accepted and sorry Rich.

No problem, p.s. I wonder if this means my Raceline RL-7's will be less likely to suffer the cracking problem than those supplied as standard fit on the Cerbies? Certainly I had my dealer look them over when the original re-call went out and he said they are fine! Rich...

[tvradict]

quote:
Mr tvradict: not sure why assembly by an automated line makes all the difference? Fit and finish might be improved, but it doesn't explain why, for example, starter motors fail regularly. And how would you explain the quality of other handbuilt cars like Rolls Royces, Morgan's etc.. Come to think of it, I think the M Power engine in my BMW is largely hand built...

What might explain the difference is the amount of time and effort (= money) spent on development. BMW or Ford etc would not design a car with the exhaust manifolds passing next to the starter, causing it to overheat. Or if they did, they'd discover the problem in hunderds of thousands of testing miles, then sort it.

Its not a criticism of TVR - but when you are developing a car that will sell for £36k in the very low volumes TVR produce, there is just no way they can develop and test to the same degree as the volume manufacturers.

Anyone remember those dreadful Fiats that fell apart and rusted in no time. Automated production line and the advertising campaign was 'built by robots'.

I preferred the Not the Nine o'clock News parody 'built by Roberts' (oi Bob, pass the torque wrench....)

Showing my age now...

In a roundabout way that was my point!
TRT can't afford, don't have time to put in hours of testing!! Ford, BMW, Volvo have the resources and money to put in hundreds of thousand of testing miles! But TVR haven't, it's like concorde, only 16 ever built, 2 prototypes, 7 to the Frnech, 7 to the brits! Thats why the fuel tank/wing/bursting tyre problem only came to light last year! If TVR had the money and resources they would put in the testing but they haven't and to me it;'s a perk TVR owners, which will include me one day, will have to live with!

[tvradict]

quote:
Stuart, I absolutely and totally agree with everything you say. I'm referring in this instance to 1)TVR's suppliers (who in many cases are the same ones used by OEM's all around the world and 2) TVR's apparent lack of SQA procedures to ensure that supplier quality is maintained. Take the example of starter motors. I've met or been in contact with, off and on around 50 Cerbera owners through forums, track days or roadside chats. Of those with Cerbera's over 20,000 miles old (around 7 or 8) every single one has had a replacement starter (me included). Now that's a small sample I grant you but a 100% failure rate on starter motors at or over 20,000 miles suggests a bit of a problem - either with the spec or the supplier. Looking back through threads on this site, some of hwhich are very recent, 3, 4, 5, 6 or even 7 replacements have been made on some cars. The starter motor problem has been around since day 1 of Cerbera production, i.e since 1996. Is it too much to expect someone to fix the problem? The same applies to gauges (especially tachos and oil pressure) top wishbone bushes, front disc warping on 4.5's, and on and on and on. I expect problems from low volume cars, it's in the nature of the beast and fair enough ........ but I also expect somebody to care enough to fix it properly once and for all! Lets not forget, £50,000+ is a hell of a lot of money.

Anyway, back to wheels - keep posts coming please

Regards

John

Agreed, £50K + is a lot of money to spend on a car with faults! But this come back to the testing thing again! When TVR specced a Starter Motor for the AJP8, I bet they didn't test it over hundreds and hundreds of starts?!?! When they found out it was not up to a standard high enough! They probably couldn't be bothered/didn't wnt to admit that there was something wrong and recall them!!! Sounds to me like the starter motor can't handle the weight of the AJP8! Is it just on the AJP8 or on the 6 as well??

[gazzab]

RE: _
No problem, p.s. I wonder if this means my Raceline RL-7's will be less likely to suffer the cracking problem than those supplied as standard fit on the Cerbies? Certainly I had my dealer look them over when the original re-call went out and he said they are fine! Rich...

I had to replace the second set of (stronger) 18inch RL7s (?) on my cerb with spiders as they had cracked again! Cost me about a grand even though the wheels were free from TVR (ie in blown tyres and mods for spiders).



>> Edited by gazzab on Thursday 14th March 14:32

[richb]

Gary, where exactly do the cracks manifest themselves? Rich...