Burned to death cause of a faulty lock?
Discussion
WHY are the the electrics in the cerbie so unreliable??
A switch and a wire and a circuit will always be just that. A switch and a wire and a circuit.
Children under the age of 4 are given more complex toys in the way of electrical gagetry in their bloody xmas stocking, loads of which costs under a tenner!
I dont wanna sound like a bag of sour grumblesnot, but what's the problem??
I can understand the potential difficulties over the years TVR might experience when developing the AJP engine, but er... what I cant grasp is why basic electrics are so very tempremental(sp)
I was reading back into the PH archives, and the stories of the peeps whose doors would not open sent chills up my spine.
AMERICAN POW's made more reliable radios out of their boot laces and sewing needles back in the war. Am I missing something? Or is this perhaps TVR trynna cut costs and save money?
A switch and a wire and a circuit will always be just that. A switch and a wire and a circuit.
Children under the age of 4 are given more complex toys in the way of electrical gagetry in their bloody xmas stocking, loads of which costs under a tenner!
I dont wanna sound like a bag of sour grumblesnot, but what's the problem??
I can understand the potential difficulties over the years TVR might experience when developing the AJP engine, but er... what I cant grasp is why basic electrics are so very tempremental(sp)
I was reading back into the PH archives, and the stories of the peeps whose doors would not open sent chills up my spine.
AMERICAN POW's made more reliable radios out of their boot laces and sewing needles back in the war. Am I missing something? Or is this perhaps TVR trynna cut costs and save money?
WHY are the the electrics in the cerbie so unreliable??
Can't say I'd noticed.
If the electrics failed [which they never have], then you could just use the cable operated door release in the sill. See - absolute safety - if the primary system fails TVR give you a backup. What would happen if the central locking went AWOL in another car. Do you get a secondary way to get out? I think not.
WB
There have been dozens of posts mentioning all manner of electrical problems with TVR's, not just the windows and doors.
My querie was not whether it has happened to you or anyone specifically, but why it happens at all, and as frequently as it does, for some people.
The first time I ever saw a cerbera up close, there were problems with the electrics.
My question is, why the problems in the first place with anything that is electrical. I was trying to explain that I could understand if an engine needed several years of work before being (largely) sorted, but the electrics... What I dont understand is why the electrical faults occur with the frequence they do in the first place. Are they really complicated (I didnt think they were) or made using cheap parts, or... what?
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=4579&f=6&h=0 4 peeps were unable to get out of their car. But no... as I said, its not just the door electrics (the idea of which does scare the hell out of me
) but other electrical niggles.
hmmmm
>> Edited by Robster on Monday 3rd January 20:22
My querie was not whether it has happened to you or anyone specifically, but why it happens at all, and as frequently as it does, for some people.
The first time I ever saw a cerbera up close, there were problems with the electrics.
My question is, why the problems in the first place with anything that is electrical. I was trying to explain that I could understand if an engine needed several years of work before being (largely) sorted, but the electrics... What I dont understand is why the electrical faults occur with the frequence they do in the first place. Are they really complicated (I didnt think they were) or made using cheap parts, or... what?
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=4579&f=6&h=0 4 peeps were unable to get out of their car. But no... as I said, its not just the door electrics (the idea of which does scare the hell out of me
) but other electrical niggles. hmmmm
>> Edited by Robster on Monday 3rd January 20:22
Robster please remember that on discussion forums you generally only hear about problems, not all the happy owners with no problems. This is common with virtually all car forums, ferrari, lambo, porsche, scooby, vw, etc, etc..
There is also the factor that TVR's are typically used as 2nd, 3rd cars and can be left unused for long periods of time, causing problems. Flat batteries and alrms/electronic immobilisers do not go well together. This apply to most cars, problems occur when not used (lotus, ferrari, etc, owners also seem to report eletrical problems for probably similar reasons)
Having a battery optimiser fitted will prevent quite a few problems.
for example, My utterly reliable VR6 Golf when left unused for 3 months, was a nightmare of elecrical/other faults for a month or 2 afterwards.
I also think that creating the post with the heading
'Burned to Death cause of a faulty door lock' is rather inflammatory......
AS this has not actually happened to anyone.
If there is an electrical problem with the door, there is the manual overide.
I'm also sure everyone can tell horror stories about car electrical problems with other manufacturers. So please don't imply that TVR are are any worse (or better :-) than other makes.
Personally VW passat (new) indicators/hazards intermittantly disappeating (no fun in traffic)
BMW, 4 ECU's !!!!!
406 V6 Voupe 3 lots of coils.
These were all new cars less than 2 years old.
Whereas some of the TVR post refer to electrics in TVrs approacing 8-10 years old.
A sense of proportion is all that I'n asking for.
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 17th March 13:19
There is also the factor that TVR's are typically used as 2nd, 3rd cars and can be left unused for long periods of time, causing problems. Flat batteries and alrms/electronic immobilisers do not go well together. This apply to most cars, problems occur when not used (lotus, ferrari, etc, owners also seem to report eletrical problems for probably similar reasons)
Having a battery optimiser fitted will prevent quite a few problems.
for example, My utterly reliable VR6 Golf when left unused for 3 months, was a nightmare of elecrical/other faults for a month or 2 afterwards.
I also think that creating the post with the heading
'Burned to Death cause of a faulty door lock' is rather inflammatory......
AS this has not actually happened to anyone.
If there is an electrical problem with the door, there is the manual overide.
I'm also sure everyone can tell horror stories about car electrical problems with other manufacturers. So please don't imply that TVR are are any worse (or better :-) than other makes.
Personally VW passat (new) indicators/hazards intermittantly disappeating (no fun in traffic)
BMW, 4 ECU's !!!!!
406 V6 Voupe 3 lots of coils.
These were all new cars less than 2 years old.
Whereas some of the TVR post refer to electrics in TVrs approacing 8-10 years old.
A sense of proportion is all that I'n asking for.
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 17th March 13:19
I Have to agree with the comment about leaving any car for a longer period of time without use will cause problems..
left a normally faultless audi cab for a couple of months over the winter, just the odd run to charge thet battery, and come the first time I try to put the hood down, it all goes pear shaped....and if you think tvr are expensive to fix try a new hood wiring loom and brain from audi....!!!
vorsprung durch charging an arm and a leg and another leg..
btw had the car for 4 years regular use and no problems at all...
left a normally faultless audi cab for a couple of months over the winter, just the odd run to charge thet battery, and come the first time I try to put the hood down, it all goes pear shaped....and if you think tvr are expensive to fix try a new hood wiring loom and brain from audi....!!!
vorsprung durch charging an arm and a leg and another leg..
btw had the car for 4 years regular use and no problems at all...
... what I cant grasp is why basic electrics are so very tempremental(sp)
...becuase wiring on a plastic ain't easy..! It's not exactly basic, and all cars of this type have issues... IIRC every electrical compnent has to be individually earthed, rather than having a common earth... hence twice as much wiring, twice as much to go wrong...
joust said:Err - what you think that door opening handle on every "normal" car is for then?????
williamball said: What would happen if the central locking went AWOL in another car. Do you get a secondary way to get out? I think not.
WB
Lets try again shall we. On a TVR there are 2 ways of getting out - 1. an electical switch, 2. a manual pull-handle. Lets call them 'primary' and 'secondary' mechanisms. So, if the primary mechanism fails, the secondary mechanism will still work.
Now lets look at a 'normal' car. As your keen observation has spotted, they have door handles. Lets consider this their 'primary' mechanism. Now lets say this stops working. On a 911 I had the lock/handle mechanism jammed [a small stone had actually got in]. On my wifes Jeep the central locking went AWOL on the passenger door. In these instances there is/was no other way to open the door. In both cases the way out was by clambering around in the interior and getting out the other side. And yes, I had spotted on both occasions these vehicles were fitted with door handles, and yes I had a fair idea how to operate them.
Point of the original posting was the a Cerbera was no more unsafe in terms of getting out than anything else, and was arguably safer as there were 2 ways to open the door.
WB
William is raising the question what happens when the central locking fails. Most modern cars have deadlocks that are activated by the central locking, which effectively disable the interior door handle. As far as I know, there is no easy way to overide this situation manually, unlike TVR where there is a separate mechanical system operated by a cable.
For those of you that read the post I mentioned, both the manual override AND the electrics failed... hence the problem.
The thread was going on about how difficult it would be to get out of a burning cerbera through the window.
Apologies if the title of my post was to dramatic for some of you, but for me... I am scared, potentially, of that or something similar happening. By scared I mean genuinely fearful, when first getting into the car. The thought/fright hit me hard when I asked "Where are the door handles??" Sorry, but thats just me.
I have only ever seen two cerbies in real life, up close, both on the same day. (Two very nice peeps Olly and Toad were kind enough to let me watch them wash their cars
and take me for a proper blast!)
Forums aside, I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears a multitude of problems including plenty of electrical (which also included driver window not responding as it should). So no, I did't post my question based on forums only.
Anyway, (after getting into the car for the first time, and feeling the cramped conditions (which I grew to love very fast!) my IMMEDIATE feeling was one of fear, should the car take a plunge off the road into water, or catch fire.
This was not helped when my passenger window started doing it's own thing, much to my amazement.
Given that one of my best mates was trapped underwater in a car that had flipped into a water filled ditch which prevented the doors from opening due to the curvature of the banks (plenty of those in the UK) he had to think fast, get out, and rescue his friend... well, call me a pussycat, but if there is such a phenomenan as reincarnation, I recon I drowned and burned in all my lives.
And no, I dont expect the electrical systems on many cars to work when wet, but it helps to know they work in the first place. I didn't mean to start a thread of confusion, I hear what everyone says, and feel it is down to my lack of experience with cars in general, I guess, for asking.
However, given that I am into software, computers etc... that kind of thing (job) the way I was thinking is electrics are tested and re-tested ENDLESSLY before being installed. With mechanics, problems are more often found in real-time, and rectified accordingly years down the road. I still am not sure why electrical systems on cerbs are a little more problematic than other cars.
re: toad's and olly's cars, and my comments about the problems they had, their cars are fine, in very good hands, and getting engless loving care.
All that said, I am not having a pop at cerbera owners either. It is my belief that the electrical systems are not as reliable as they could/should be, and no amount of problems will scare me away.
There is nothing with four wheels (except perhaps a trolly full of gold bars) that I would rather have than a cerbera
~Rob
The thread was going on about how difficult it would be to get out of a burning cerbera through the window.
Apologies if the title of my post was to dramatic for some of you, but for me... I am scared, potentially, of that or something similar happening. By scared I mean genuinely fearful, when first getting into the car. The thought/fright hit me hard when I asked "Where are the door handles??" Sorry, but thats just me.
I have only ever seen two cerbies in real life, up close, both on the same day. (Two very nice peeps Olly and Toad were kind enough to let me watch them wash their cars
and take me for a proper blast!) Forums aside, I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears a multitude of problems including plenty of electrical (which also included driver window not responding as it should). So no, I did't post my question based on forums only.
Anyway, (after getting into the car for the first time, and feeling the cramped conditions (which I grew to love very fast!) my IMMEDIATE feeling was one of fear, should the car take a plunge off the road into water, or catch fire.
This was not helped when my passenger window started doing it's own thing, much to my amazement.
Given that one of my best mates was trapped underwater in a car that had flipped into a water filled ditch which prevented the doors from opening due to the curvature of the banks (plenty of those in the UK) he had to think fast, get out, and rescue his friend... well, call me a pussycat, but if there is such a phenomenan as reincarnation, I recon I drowned and burned in all my lives.
And no, I dont expect the electrical systems on many cars to work when wet, but it helps to know they work in the first place. I didn't mean to start a thread of confusion, I hear what everyone says, and feel it is down to my lack of experience with cars in general, I guess, for asking.
However, given that I am into software, computers etc... that kind of thing (job) the way I was thinking is electrics are tested and re-tested ENDLESSLY before being installed. With mechanics, problems are more often found in real-time, and rectified accordingly years down the road. I still am not sure why electrical systems on cerbs are a little more problematic than other cars.
re: toad's and olly's cars, and my comments about the problems they had, their cars are fine, in very good hands, and getting engless loving care.
All that said, I am not having a pop at cerbera owners either. It is my belief that the electrical systems are not as reliable as they could/should be, and no amount of problems will scare me away.
There is nothing with four wheels (except perhaps a trolly full of gold bars) that I would rather have than a cerbera
~Rob
Robster said: There have been dozens of posts mentioning all manner of electrical problems with TVR's, not just the windows and doors.
My querie was not whether it has happened to you or anyone specifically, but why it happens at all, and as frequently as it does, for some people.
Is this a wind-up? 'as freqently as it does'...I've had the Cerbie for 3 1/2 years and done 33K miles with no electircal problems. I know many other Cerbie owners too who don't have problems - in fact I don't personally know of anyone who has had electrical problems, but yes I've read of some here. Folks are simply not going to post "hey guys, another week with no electrical problems" are they? You cannot read a few posts and extrapolate them as applying to all owners all the time.
Robster said:
My question is, why the problems in the first place with anything that is electrical.
...anything that is electrical. It is a wind-up! Where do you get the idea that anything that's electrical is problematic?
Robster said:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=4579&f=6&h=0 4 peeps were unable to get out of their car.
The post you refer to was from 2001!!!!!!!!
What is your point with this post? Why, as a non-Cerbera owner, are you telling Cerbera drivers their cars are all problematical when they're not?
WB
Robster said:The thread was going on about how difficult it would be to get out of a burning cerbera through the window.
you don't need to, you use the manual release.
Robster said:I have only ever seen two cerbies in real life...
need I say more...
Robster said:However, given that I am into software, computers etc... that kind of thing (job) the way I was thinking is electrics are tested and re-tested ENDLESSLY before being installed. With mechanics, problems are more often found in real-time, and rectified accordingly years down the road. I still am not sure why electrical systems on cerbs are a little more problematic than other cars.
Ah...reliable computers...like the Arianne space rocket that self destructed due to a software bug, or the fly-by-wire Airbus that decided to land in a forrest. I've been in software for 20 odd years and having seen what really happens, I won't even use a cash machine...but I do trust my Cerbera.
If you want a car that's easy to get out of, get one without a roof.
Are you actually thinking of buying a Cerbera, or is this all just a bit of pointless scaremongering?
WB
>> Edited by williamball on Monday 17th March 14:52
No, I dont wind people up. At least not on purpose.
Yes, I DID SAY that I dont know that much about cars electrical systems, and even less about cerberas... but my first experience in real life was similar to the one posted, and the conversations between the owners based upon real life experience were not exactly.... giving me the impression they WERE reliable.
Infact, they were explaining to me that if I wanted a cerbera, I SHOULD EXPECT these types of electrical, as that is the nature of TVR ownership.
Im not saying anything... or meaning to imply anything beyond the fact that I have been lead to believe not through the 100's of posts, but from cerbera owners that the electrics were by normal standards not as reliable as other cars. If I am wrong, WOOHOO! What else can I say.
Im sorry for the misunderstanding. Clearly, I am the only person that got the impression they are not up to scratch, and since I dont own a cerbera, it is equally clear I am in the wrong for even suggesting that they might not be up to scratch. So, er... if this is the case, knock it on the head... knocking me on the head doesnt do anything to help educate me.
No one is having a dig here. I was genuinely fearful when getting in one, wondering what would happen if the door did not open. Do I sound like Im trying to wind anyone up. Ok, silly title perhaps.
I did not realise that pre-2001 models were exempt. Im just stating my concerns, which are genuine, given that I intend to buy a cerb one day, and the said fears have played on my mind since stepping into and out of the car itself a few months back.
Unless anyone has anything constructive to say, mentally file me in your "idiot" drawer and move onto the next post. I dont do the "wind up" thing, and was only expressing my own opinion.
I still want a cerb
Yes, I DID SAY that I dont know that much about cars electrical systems, and even less about cerberas... but my first experience in real life was similar to the one posted, and the conversations between the owners based upon real life experience were not exactly.... giving me the impression they WERE reliable.
Infact, they were explaining to me that if I wanted a cerbera, I SHOULD EXPECT these types of electrical, as that is the nature of TVR ownership.
Im not saying anything... or meaning to imply anything beyond the fact that I have been lead to believe not through the 100's of posts, but from cerbera owners that the electrics were by normal standards not as reliable as other cars. If I am wrong, WOOHOO! What else can I say.
Im sorry for the misunderstanding. Clearly, I am the only person that got the impression they are not up to scratch, and since I dont own a cerbera, it is equally clear I am in the wrong for even suggesting that they might not be up to scratch. So, er... if this is the case, knock it on the head... knocking me on the head doesnt do anything to help educate me.
No one is having a dig here. I was genuinely fearful when getting in one, wondering what would happen if the door did not open. Do I sound like Im trying to wind anyone up. Ok, silly title perhaps.
I did not realise that pre-2001 models were exempt. Im just stating my concerns, which are genuine, given that I intend to buy a cerb one day, and the said fears have played on my mind since stepping into and out of the car itself a few months back.
Unless anyone has anything constructive to say, mentally file me in your "idiot" drawer and move onto the next post. I dont do the "wind up" thing, and was only expressing my own opinion.
I still want a cerb
How do you get it to deadlock with you in it???? Most cars you either have to lock it with the fob when it's not in the ignition or turn the key in the dead lock - both rather hard to do with you in it and the engine running - locking with the interior switch doesn't put the deadlock on - on the X5 I have it set to lock the doors once over 5mph - two simple tugs on the interior handle first unlocks the mechanism, then opens the door. The Volvo at work does the same, and the Noble opens the door with just one tug (and it doesn't have a key hole either!).
barry said: William is raising the question what happens when the central locking fails. Most modern cars have deadlocks that are activated by the central locking, which effectively disable the interior door handle.
That's what the door handle is - a separate cable operated door opener.....
unlike TVR where there is a separate mechanical system operated by a cable.
gazzab said: I am really fearful that if I keep going roundabouts with the loud pedal flat to the floor that maybe one day I might crash.
Excellent..........
Think this puts things into context......
Actually this is probably a much more sensible REAL thing to seriously FEARFUL about, as TVR's do have a higher than average incidence of 'single vehicle' incidents. Mainly due to owners own exuberance or inexperience. SO DO a lot of other sports cars.....
Unless you crash it into a river, where the electrics won't work properly, the doors fail, then when it bursts into flames..... oh, forgot about all that water.
Please don't take offence Robster.... Just pistonheads humour. BUT do get some performance car tuition, if you are not used to v powerful rear wheel drive cars. (Also speaking as someone who put first griff backwards in a ditch, within 2 days of original ownership, citroen zx volcane to griff, oops)
TVR are very powerful rear wheel drive (and lightweight)sports cars, with minimal eletronic drivers aids/crutches that most drivers rely on(or demand)
BUT please don't critisize them for this as this is exactly how TVR have designed them to be (cf Mclaren F1, lotus elise, paganini zonda, caterham, westfield, etc)
B
>> Edited by bjwoods on Monday 17th March 21:44
No offence taken BJ Tis as I said... I have a genuine honest-to-goodness fear of being trapped in tight spaces (claustropobia) with either fire or water pouring in through the windows. The fear that hit me was er... just normal for me 
But for those that doubt my fear, I would be delighted to demonstrate this fear by constructing a DC12V death simulator on the beach which will accurately reproduce the initial fear of entrapment I experienced by way enclousure, semi-horizontal positioning, and tidal advance. Joospeed will provide the statistics necessary to ensure a realistic random probability of electrical failure and Petrol Ted will operate the paramedic siren to replicate the realism and panic the drownee will experience
But seriously... although the manual release wont help me if I am lying on the bottom of the ocean at crab-zero, unconscious when the emergency services arrive, it's a great feature for sure and will probably save a life one day.
PS BJ - And I really *wasn't* criticizing! I said I cant wait to get a cerbera, and all that nonsense about me winding people up is nothing more than a misunderstanding. I very much DID (somehow) get the impression the electrics were NOT as reliable as they should be. Glad to hear the opposite is true If anyone does want to have a go in my death sim, send a cheque for £250, address on the website. (discounts for pensioners and regular bookings )
>> Edited by Robster on Monday 17th March 22:45
Tis as I said... I have a genuine honest-to-goodness fear of being trapped in tight spaces (claustropobia) with either fire or water pouring in through the windows. The fear that hit me was er... just normal for me But for those that doubt my fear, I would be delighted to demonstrate this fear by constructing a DC12V death simulator on the beach which will accurately reproduce the initial fear of entrapment I experienced by way enclousure, semi-horizontal positioning, and tidal advance. Joospeed will provide the statistics necessary to ensure a realistic random probability of electrical failure and Petrol Ted will operate the paramedic siren to replicate the realism and panic the drownee will experience
But seriously... although the manual release wont help me if I am lying on the bottom of the ocean at crab-zero, unconscious when the emergency services arrive, it's a great feature for sure and will probably save a life one day.
PS BJ - And I really *wasn't* criticizing! I said I cant wait to get a cerbera, and all that nonsense about me winding people up is nothing more than a misunderstanding. I very much DID (somehow) get the impression the electrics were NOT as reliable as they should be. Glad to hear the opposite is true
If anyone does want to have a go in my death sim, send a cheque for £250, address on the website. (discounts for pensioners and regular bookings ) >> Edited by Robster on Monday 17th March 22:45
williamball said:
Ah...reliable computers...like the Arianne space rocket that self destructed due to a software bug, or the fly-by-wire Airbus that decided to land in a forrest. I've been in software for 20 odd years and having seen what really happens, I won't even use a cash machine...but I do trust my Cerbera.
Computers, electronics etc etc... are all built by humans. Humans are falable.. they make mistakes.. therefore so is anything they make. Fact of life.
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