Emerald K6 fitted & mapped
Discussion
I've been meaning to post this since last summer, but the nice weather has reminded me there is a Cerb in the garage!
It has been running mechanically sweetly for quite a while now with the engine troubles hopefully addressed!
When setting up the MBE I posted ages ago about the T-pot values both suddenly jumping to 50%, I rang MBE at the time but they said they would have a look but parts are no longer available. Just removing & plugging it back in fixed it then, with the infrequent use it gets it was ok for the next year or so. However it suddenly lost power when driving one day lucky close to home so I plugged in again & found the pots had done the same thing. Re-plugging the ECU only lasted minutes this time though.
So that seemed like a good excuse as any to fit a different ECU at least that would rule the TPots out! (I had tested them as much as I could first)
As I've always read PPC magazine & Dave Walker's book the Emerald K6 seemed good & I know a few others have them.
So I rang out man J at kits & classics, as I really wanted to do it my self he was happy to send me out a kit of the ECU, adaptor plug & three map switch. I was keen on fitting a wide band lambda so I pointed me to the one he uses & suggested I fitted it in the link piped of his old linked de cats I've got, so it got a good mix from both banks.
Fitting the ECU couldn't have been more simple it really was a case of plugging it's pre-wired adaptor plug into the old ECU plug.
The wide band & controller was a little more involved though! With it fitted & all conned up it basically mapps its self for fuelling. (The Cerbs standard lambdas are more like an on off switch with a very narrow range).
It came with a 4.5 map already loaded & with my wide band the fuelling largely took care of its self, but the ignition timing really needed a rolling road.
Our man J would be the obvious one but he is quite a trip & we have family near the Emerald HQ so went with them (sorry J!)
It was pinking like crazy on the supplied Emerald map (that is just one to get you going, a copy of someone else's) so well worth doing. I think it always had even with the stock MBE a little, mainly opening the throttle too much at low revs. But standing outside the car with John tweaking it was really evident.
All was going well till John stepped out & said the dreaded "something's wrong" not what you want to here! Luckily it was just that it was hesitant when stamping on the throttle, John said it was like the throttle bodies weren't opening at the same time. So we checked the linkage but it was still (as I'd spent a long time setting it) just right. So he did the best he could & sent me off for a test drive, WOT was amazing, the power delivery was so smooth I didn't want to try dumping the clutch but flooring it from low revs in first it just dug in & screamed though to 7000rpm, with the standard MBE it broke traction very easily as it hit the power band.
However the hesitation on flooring it from normal driving revs was still there occasionally, thinking about it that's always been there with the MBE too. Just as I got back from my test drive Dave Walker made a very timely appearance & had some ideas about that so I will try to find time to try & will report back.
In fact John said I don't suppose you'll have noticed much difference as you've fitted that wide band. He was kind right but I'd not tried full throttle as I was (as it turned out rightly) worried about the ignition map.
I did get to feel the full difference of the map though as the first trip with the K6 fitted was with the kids in the back & they had grown since last time & I found I couldn't fit in the drivers seat. So it was with me on the laptop tweaking settings in the passenger seat with my better half Mandy driving. So by the time I drove it again the fuelling was all corrected & I got the full effect that every one talks about with remapped Cerbs.
I'd be lying if I said I was happy with the headline power figure, I could go on about cell temps etc, but it is what it is.
sorry if that is sideways
Quite some time ago now, after speaking to Jason at TVR Power I'd set the cams to 1mm lower (I'd got my TDC when the heads were off with the stops half way down each stroke method), he said he'd done quite a bit testing & that gave the best torque & driveability at the expense of top end BHP figures. I certainly seem to be lacking in top end BHP so how do you guys think the curve looks?
It has been running mechanically sweetly for quite a while now with the engine troubles hopefully addressed!
When setting up the MBE I posted ages ago about the T-pot values both suddenly jumping to 50%, I rang MBE at the time but they said they would have a look but parts are no longer available. Just removing & plugging it back in fixed it then, with the infrequent use it gets it was ok for the next year or so. However it suddenly lost power when driving one day lucky close to home so I plugged in again & found the pots had done the same thing. Re-plugging the ECU only lasted minutes this time though.
So that seemed like a good excuse as any to fit a different ECU at least that would rule the TPots out! (I had tested them as much as I could first)
As I've always read PPC magazine & Dave Walker's book the Emerald K6 seemed good & I know a few others have them.
So I rang out man J at kits & classics, as I really wanted to do it my self he was happy to send me out a kit of the ECU, adaptor plug & three map switch. I was keen on fitting a wide band lambda so I pointed me to the one he uses & suggested I fitted it in the link piped of his old linked de cats I've got, so it got a good mix from both banks.
Fitting the ECU couldn't have been more simple it really was a case of plugging it's pre-wired adaptor plug into the old ECU plug.
The wide band & controller was a little more involved though! With it fitted & all conned up it basically mapps its self for fuelling. (The Cerbs standard lambdas are more like an on off switch with a very narrow range).
It came with a 4.5 map already loaded & with my wide band the fuelling largely took care of its self, but the ignition timing really needed a rolling road.
Our man J would be the obvious one but he is quite a trip & we have family near the Emerald HQ so went with them (sorry J!)
It was pinking like crazy on the supplied Emerald map (that is just one to get you going, a copy of someone else's) so well worth doing. I think it always had even with the stock MBE a little, mainly opening the throttle too much at low revs. But standing outside the car with John tweaking it was really evident.
All was going well till John stepped out & said the dreaded "something's wrong" not what you want to here! Luckily it was just that it was hesitant when stamping on the throttle, John said it was like the throttle bodies weren't opening at the same time. So we checked the linkage but it was still (as I'd spent a long time setting it) just right. So he did the best he could & sent me off for a test drive, WOT was amazing, the power delivery was so smooth I didn't want to try dumping the clutch but flooring it from low revs in first it just dug in & screamed though to 7000rpm, with the standard MBE it broke traction very easily as it hit the power band.
However the hesitation on flooring it from normal driving revs was still there occasionally, thinking about it that's always been there with the MBE too. Just as I got back from my test drive Dave Walker made a very timely appearance & had some ideas about that so I will try to find time to try & will report back.
In fact John said I don't suppose you'll have noticed much difference as you've fitted that wide band. He was kind right but I'd not tried full throttle as I was (as it turned out rightly) worried about the ignition map.
I did get to feel the full difference of the map though as the first trip with the K6 fitted was with the kids in the back & they had grown since last time & I found I couldn't fit in the drivers seat. So it was with me on the laptop tweaking settings in the passenger seat with my better half Mandy driving. So by the time I drove it again the fuelling was all corrected & I got the full effect that every one talks about with remapped Cerbs.
I'd be lying if I said I was happy with the headline power figure, I could go on about cell temps etc, but it is what it is.
sorry if that is sideways
Quite some time ago now, after speaking to Jason at TVR Power I'd set the cams to 1mm lower (I'd got my TDC when the heads were off with the stops half way down each stroke method), he said he'd done quite a bit testing & that gave the best torque & driveability at the expense of top end BHP figures. I certainly seem to be lacking in top end BHP so how do you guys think the curve looks?
Hi Andrew your pics dont work for me so can't comment on the graph, emerald have a new dyno though now and it's a very good one so you'd expect the numbers to be representative.
If the hesitancy is on very slow throttle opening it needs more on-road mapping time probably to iron that out, if it's more rapid throttle openings causing it then you're looking more to the accel enrich settings assuming the base map is right in that area.
I know emerald didnt used to road test the cars after mapping whereas I can spend almost as much time on-road as on the dyno with some cars.
If the hesitancy is on very slow throttle opening it needs more on-road mapping time probably to iron that out, if it's more rapid throttle openings causing it then you're looking more to the accel enrich settings assuming the base map is right in that area.
I know emerald didnt used to road test the cars after mapping whereas I can spend almost as much time on-road as on the dyno with some cars.
spitfire4v8 said:
Hi Andrew your pics dont work for me so can't comment on the graph, emerald have a new dyno though now and it's a very good one so you'd expect the numbers to be representative.
If the hesitancy is on very slow throttle opening it needs more on-road mapping time probably to iron that out, if it's more rapid throttle openings causing it then you're looking more to the accel enrich settings assuming the base map is right in that area.
I know emerald didnt used to road test the cars after mapping whereas I can spend almost as much time on-road as on the dyno with some cars.
Hi J, thanks again for all the advice with the set up If the hesitancy is on very slow throttle opening it needs more on-road mapping time probably to iron that out, if it's more rapid throttle openings causing it then you're looking more to the accel enrich settings assuming the base map is right in that area.
I know emerald didnt used to road test the cars after mapping whereas I can spend almost as much time on-road as on the dyno with some cars.
I'm not meaning to question their results, I don't think the numbers are wrong, I hope it didn't come across as if I was saying they did a bad job far from it!
But no they didn't take it out on the road John said he tries to avoid that, I think for the sake of his driving licence as much as the volume of cars & their value. Yes it's rapid throttle openings, he did spend a long time with accel enrich settings, between each part of the base map set up, but when ever he changed one part he adversely affected another. But Dave pointed out a mechanical issue (nothing broken thankfully!) I want to try to address so I didn't push for anymore help with that issue until I've had a fiddle my self. There are just a few other post rebuild sangs to iron out before fiddling with the engine again just for the sake of it...
Its the power curve I was posting about now really.
Sorry about the pics, must be permissions again, can no one else see them?
Mean time this should work;
sorry I think it still refusing to upload the right way up!
I found an old post from 2005 where I said I'd taken it to Charlie's rolling road & got 345 bhp with some breathing issues (air box issues, collapsing long purple pipes & slightly blocked cats), annoyingly I've lost that print out now, but I remember it dropping off very sharply passed 6k but I think the torque curve was more top end biased then too. It was looked after by APM Andy back then so I'd assume the cams were set equal. It has your short pipes intakes & everything very carefully set up with the cams set at 1mm lower as I said. The only way to know for sure would be to set the cams equal again & have it mapped again, but one point I did fail to take on board was their prices not inc VAT my chin nearly hit the floor when I was handed the bill
It was fun seeing the flames though
FarmyardPants said:
Charlie might still have that dyno plot on file
FarmyardPants said:
Charlie might still have that dyno plot on file
I did wonder that but I can't find the post of that would have given the date of the RR day. It was one with other TVRs (I couldn't make the Cerb only day). We all went for a drive out to I think racing green after. I guess asking Charlie is the only way to find out!
Up loaded direct from my phone may be a bit better but thanks putting my map the right way up!
I sent Charlie a PM but have heard nothing back, so have been doing a lot of searching on here instead. It seems our original 345 BHP from 2005 was bang on for a std Cerb with purple pipes that were starting to get sucked in. I'd had it tested in 2005 as we'd got the Cerb back in 2000 when it was just over two years old & it had felt a lot faster back then.
I got short intakes with the group buy on here many years back & fitted them along with J's std correction chip but really didn't feel any difference so a remap was always on the cards. However a remaped Red Rose MBE chip from Powers Performance appeared on eBay so I bought that just to see what difference a remap could make, it was stunning, scary fast again leaving you shaking, just as the first drive had back in 2000. So I decided the only proper thing to do was strip & rebuild the whole car.
The chassis rebuild went very well, I wasn't intending to take the heads of an engine that ran so well once never mind twice, but having spent so much time & money on the engine I wasn't about to risk running someone else's map, which takes us back to the top of this thread.
So unable to track down my old print out I finally found this excellent thread on power curves with short intake pipes. https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=6&t=1392813&i=20
There isn't much talk of cam timing on it. Though as think the accepted findings of APM Andy (amongst others) from a good many years back was to set it even for best power. I'm assuming that would be what most people have.
As I mentioned above I set mine to 1mm lower (rather than the 1.5mm in the book) in an attempt to get a better mid range. Looking at my power curve alone it seems I have got that. But comparing my graph with the others from that link above it seems my mid range is much the same as all the other remaps but it just tails off at the top end.
So that coupled with the fact I'm sure ours was running even cam timing (directly from APM Andy's own hands) when I tried the MBE chip I'm guessing short intakes work by far the best with even cam timing.
So I think maybe the lesson is don't take tuning advice from different sources then put 2 & 2 together & to make 3!
For ref ours is running an SP back box, linked decats & TCS short intake pipes. With the rest of the top half of the engine in good fresh condition all double checked, clearances at 10 & 12 give or take 1 thou.
Luckyone said:
FarmyardPants said:
Charlie might still have that dyno plot on file
FarmyardPants said:
Charlie might still have that dyno plot on file
I did wonder that but I can't find the post of that would have given the date of the RR day. It was one with other TVRs (I couldn't make the Cerb only day). We all went for a drive out to I think racing green after. I guess asking Charlie is the only way to find out!
http://www.pbase.com/byker28i/surreyrr
Byker28i said:
2011? We had a meet at Charlies then
http://www.pbase.com/byker28i/surreyrr
Thanks for the link, but I was well into the body off rebuild then so no chance it was there. http://www.pbase.com/byker28i/surreyrr
There was an open day at Austec for a go on their rollers some time after 2005 that we went to, but I see they have ceased trading now.
I'm sure I've still got the print outs some where but we've moved house since then & there is a box of stuff somewhere I've not found yet...
diedvdijk said:
Hi All,
Is there anyone who tried to take out the emerald file for comparison? For example I am curious about the Emerald tune how they tuned the car to get the best out of it.
Thanks
You only need to plug the laptop in to look at the tune. I’m fairly sure I sent a copy to Julian at Kits & Classics as he was interested to look. I have re-done mine many times over with the Adaptive mapping & the wide band I mentioned years ago back up the post. Is there anyone who tried to take out the emerald file for comparison? For example I am curious about the Emerald tune how they tuned the car to get the best out of it.
Thanks
Glad you found the old post it reminded me I did find the old print outs, they were hiding in the Cerbs hand book were I wouldn’t lose them!
Those were the original ones from back in 2005!
Then I think I said we got turned away from the Austec open day session (probably a year or so later) as they said the purple pipes were collapsing too much to try so I tried putting some jubilee clamps rounded them:
This was their print out after:
I’m assuming that’s at the wheels!
Then this is the printout from the first post again
I did some more work on it after chatting to Dave Walker keep an eye on on upcoming PPC magazine issues...
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