K-Series HGF Etc, Rover 25's - Info needed please!
Discussion
Hi, My brothers trusty P'Reg Clio 1.4 RT failed on him a few weeks back, HG went and my parents don't want to fix it. Have been looking for another car for him without much luck. SH car market seems to be a bit weak at the moment!
First choice was a 00-02 shape Polo 1.4. But they seem hard to come by with a budget of ~£2k.
I've been away this weekend to return to find them very interested in a Rover 25 down the road.
Now, I like these cars, a mate had one but have always been aware of the HGF problem.
How do I check to make sure its not gone in the past, going to go, or not?!
If we buy the car, How do we stop it, or is it going to happen at some point regardless?
If the car is all good, Do we still steer cleer?
Any help would be great!
Thanks
First choice was a 00-02 shape Polo 1.4. But they seem hard to come by with a budget of ~£2k.
I've been away this weekend to return to find them very interested in a Rover 25 down the road.
Now, I like these cars, a mate had one but have always been aware of the HGF problem.
How do I check to make sure its not gone in the past, going to go, or not?!
If we buy the car, How do we stop it, or is it going to happen at some point regardless?
If the car is all good, Do we still steer cleer?
Any help would be great!
Thanks
How long is a piece of string?...
Look the car over as you should ANY used car. You are looking for signs of a well cared for car. Decent oil on the dipstick ~ still looking fresh and not old, very black and gummy on the stick. Also, within MAX-MIN level ~ the correct level. Also look at the condition of the coolant expansion bottle and coolant.
Having done that, ask a few questions and see how the owner responds. Make a list of questions ~ not too long ~ as you may forget to ask a key question ~ easily done. Look closely at the coolant expansion bottle ~ note the coolant level on the bottle ~ it should be on the MAX mark or a little below that but on or above the MIN mark in a COLD otherwise healthy engine. Look for any signs of leaks ~ oil coolant etc ~ and note where they are if any seen.
If all good so far, take car for a drive ~ not a quick spin round the block ~ minimum ten mile trip to get car and engine fully warmed up ~ be all eyes and ears during that drive. The all important coolant temperature gauge needle should be steady a fraction below horizontal and stay there. Any signs of that needle creeping above level needs further investigation. If the vendor is not keen to drive that far, low on fuel or whatever, offer to put a gallon in it ... could be money well spent. If still finds excuses not to go that far, I would certainly feel inclined to walk away ~ FROM ANY CAR you are considering buying!
Coolant bottle on a healthy well cared for K-Series ( or most other cars for that matter ) should look like this:~
Or this if correct OAT coolant is in the system:~
Not like this:~
or, worst still, like this :~
The above two pictures of coolant exapnsion bottles are cars with problems ~ avoid unless can be picked up for very little money.
Having driven the car for the ten miles, if all appears good so far, ask to see any documents in support of service items, repairs and renewals if available.
There#s one final check I like to do after that drive in a used car I'm considering buying, not just K-Series cars, ANY car can have a damaged cylinder head gasket (CHG). It's this: Allowing the hot engine to cool down AT least fifteen minutes after switching off, up to thirty on a hot day, wearing stout gloves, I very slowly UNDO, NOT remove, the coolant expansion bottle cap. Whilst SLOWLY undoing the cap, listen for a gentle shuush sound as pressure is released from the coolimg system. I like to hear that as it is a fairly reliable indicator of a well maintained healthy engine.
In a severe case of cylinder head gasket damage, cooling systems can become OVER-pressurised and if this is suspected, NEVER completely remove the coolant bottle cap until the engine has cooled a littel as described previously. It could be that coolant is being forced out of the cap even before you start to undo it ~ check for that as soon as you switch off the engine ~ listen and look for hisses and escaping coolant.
If still hot coolant does escape even whilst undoing ( not removing ) that cap, that could be a sign of CHG damage. A large powerful release of coolant from the cap can send hot coolant out at considerable force hence the need for gloves to avoid scalding. BE CAREFUL ~ just in case.
If you do not feel sufficiently confident to do these checks, try and take someone along who is familiar with the process.
Even following the satisfactory completion of all those checks ( On ANY used car )it is still possible to buy a bad one.... nothing is 100% certain but, those checks should be a reliable indicator.
Over many years of buying used cars for myself, family and friends ( "John you know about cars, I'm thinking of buying a ..." ) those checks have yet to let me down ~ there's always a first time though.
Good luck ~ whatever you go for ~ we all could do with a bit of good luck now and again...
.
ETA @ 00:03
Even if the car is purchased and later suffers CHG damage and needs renewing, on the R25s, provided the car is not driven and overheats severely once the problem shows causing more damage( people do that! ) , the CHG change on these is a relatively simple job.
Look the car over as you should ANY used car. You are looking for signs of a well cared for car. Decent oil on the dipstick ~ still looking fresh and not old, very black and gummy on the stick. Also, within MAX-MIN level ~ the correct level. Also look at the condition of the coolant expansion bottle and coolant.
Having done that, ask a few questions and see how the owner responds. Make a list of questions ~ not too long ~ as you may forget to ask a key question ~ easily done. Look closely at the coolant expansion bottle ~ note the coolant level on the bottle ~ it should be on the MAX mark or a little below that but on or above the MIN mark in a COLD otherwise healthy engine. Look for any signs of leaks ~ oil coolant etc ~ and note where they are if any seen.
If all good so far, take car for a drive ~ not a quick spin round the block ~ minimum ten mile trip to get car and engine fully warmed up ~ be all eyes and ears during that drive. The all important coolant temperature gauge needle should be steady a fraction below horizontal and stay there. Any signs of that needle creeping above level needs further investigation. If the vendor is not keen to drive that far, low on fuel or whatever, offer to put a gallon in it ... could be money well spent. If still finds excuses not to go that far, I would certainly feel inclined to walk away ~ FROM ANY CAR you are considering buying!
Coolant bottle on a healthy well cared for K-Series ( or most other cars for that matter ) should look like this:~
Or this if correct OAT coolant is in the system:~
Not like this:~
or, worst still, like this :~
The above two pictures of coolant exapnsion bottles are cars with problems ~ avoid unless can be picked up for very little money.
Having driven the car for the ten miles, if all appears good so far, ask to see any documents in support of service items, repairs and renewals if available.
There#s one final check I like to do after that drive in a used car I'm considering buying, not just K-Series cars, ANY car can have a damaged cylinder head gasket (CHG). It's this: Allowing the hot engine to cool down AT least fifteen minutes after switching off, up to thirty on a hot day, wearing stout gloves, I very slowly UNDO, NOT remove, the coolant expansion bottle cap. Whilst SLOWLY undoing the cap, listen for a gentle shuush sound as pressure is released from the coolimg system. I like to hear that as it is a fairly reliable indicator of a well maintained healthy engine.
In a severe case of cylinder head gasket damage, cooling systems can become OVER-pressurised and if this is suspected, NEVER completely remove the coolant bottle cap until the engine has cooled a littel as described previously. It could be that coolant is being forced out of the cap even before you start to undo it ~ check for that as soon as you switch off the engine ~ listen and look for hisses and escaping coolant.
If still hot coolant does escape even whilst undoing ( not removing ) that cap, that could be a sign of CHG damage. A large powerful release of coolant from the cap can send hot coolant out at considerable force hence the need for gloves to avoid scalding. BE CAREFUL ~ just in case.
If you do not feel sufficiently confident to do these checks, try and take someone along who is familiar with the process.
Even following the satisfactory completion of all those checks ( On ANY used car )it is still possible to buy a bad one.... nothing is 100% certain but, those checks should be a reliable indicator.
Over many years of buying used cars for myself, family and friends ( "John you know about cars, I'm thinking of buying a ..." ) those checks have yet to let me down ~ there's always a first time though.
Good luck ~ whatever you go for ~ we all could do with a bit of good luck now and again..
..
ETA @ 00:03
Even if the car is purchased and later suffers CHG damage and needs renewing, on the R25s, provided the car is not driven and overheats severely once the problem shows causing more damage( people do that! ) , the CHG change on these is a relatively simple job.
Edited by MGJohn on Tuesday 19th May 00:03
Thanks for the reply.
The tank looks the same as the one with the red/orange coolant. Oil level is fine and is still fairly 'clear'. My dad spoke to the previous owner who said he did 6monthly oil changes and generally looked after things.
From advice from my other topic that I posted we put a deposit on the car as everything seemed fine.
Thanks
The tank looks the same as the one with the red/orange coolant. Oil level is fine and is still fairly 'clear'. My dad spoke to the previous owner who said he did 6monthly oil changes and generally looked after things.
From advice from my other topic that I posted we put a deposit on the car as everything seemed fine.
Thanks
Max M4X WW said:
Thanks for the reply.
The tank looks the same as the one with the red/orange coolant. Oil level is fine and is still fairly 'clear'. My dad spoke to the previous owner who said he did 6monthly oil changes and generally looked after things.
From advice from my other topic that I posted we put a deposit on the car as everything seemed fine.
Thanks
You're welcome ~ those are all good signs. Sounds like a good little car and if looked after, 150,000 miles plus is not unusual in one of these.The tank looks the same as the one with the red/orange coolant. Oil level is fine and is still fairly 'clear'. My dad spoke to the previous owner who said he did 6monthly oil changes and generally looked after things.
From advice from my other topic that I posted we put a deposit on the car as everything seemed fine.
Thanks
I was going to add to this but all the important bits are covered - I've had 3 K powered cars that did a lot of miles without any problems (well i crashed one, but that doesn't count) - it depends completely on how they're looked after. Plenty of Caterham and Lotus owners had no problems with them, but once a bad rep hits it tends to stick - all the better for you in this case as it brings the prices down 
Nice to find this topic as I'm looking for a daily driver to keep the Mustang druy and I've just been to see......a 2000 Rover 25.
The car is X reg, 69000 on the clock and the HG has been replaced by the owner along with a cambelt 3000 miles ago. The car drives very well and is spritely. The coolant looks OK, the oil cap is clear and the oil looks clean although there is a slight oil weep from the cam cover.
What are these cars worth these days? The sunroof doesn't work and has been sealed shut as it leaked but certainly doesn't now, the blower doesn't work on speeds 1 and 2 and the driver's electric door mirror doesn't work. He wants £795 or offers.
The car is X reg, 69000 on the clock and the HG has been replaced by the owner along with a cambelt 3000 miles ago. The car drives very well and is spritely. The coolant looks OK, the oil cap is clear and the oil looks clean although there is a slight oil weep from the cam cover.
What are these cars worth these days? The sunroof doesn't work and has been sealed shut as it leaked but certainly doesn't now, the blower doesn't work on speeds 1 and 2 and the driver's electric door mirror doesn't work. He wants £795 or offers.
LuS1fer said:
Nice to find this topic as I'm looking for a daily driver to keep the Mustang druy and I've just been to see......a 2000 Rover 25.
The car is X reg, 69000 on the clock and the HG has been replaced by the owner along with a cambelt 3000 miles ago. The car drives very well and is spritely. The coolant looks OK, the oil cap is clear and the oil looks clean although there is a slight oil weep from the cam cover.
What are these cars worth these days? The sunroof doesn't work and has been sealed shut as it leaked but certainly doesn't now, the blower doesn't work on speeds 1 and 2 and the driver's electric door mirror doesn't work. He wants £795 or offers.
Most cars of that age are not worth a lot. The car is X reg, 69000 on the clock and the HG has been replaced by the owner along with a cambelt 3000 miles ago. The car drives very well and is spritely. The coolant looks OK, the oil cap is clear and the oil looks clean although there is a slight oil weep from the cam cover.
What are these cars worth these days? The sunroof doesn't work and has been sealed shut as it leaked but certainly doesn't now, the blower doesn't work on speeds 1 and 2 and the driver's electric door mirror doesn't work. He wants £795 or offers.
Those few problems you mention are an easy and inexpensive fix for any DIYer who knows his way about a box of spanners. Use them along with a sharp intake of breath to reduce that £795 by at least £100 ( or offers ) as to have those items professionally rectified would cost rather more than that.
My son today picked up a Rover 200vi ( earlier version of the R25 with 1.8 VVC K-Series ) for little more than loose change today ~ car has problems ~ needs head gasket at least but, no big deal on the little K-Series motor. Here it is ~
I agree with John. £795 is not an outrageous price price, but there is certainly room for a bit of haggling with the faults mentioned. The fan speed control is a very common problem caused by the resistor pack burning out, quite easy to fix.
By the way, if it's the 84ps 1.4 engine, you can upgrade it to the full 103ps spec. by changing the throttle body or removing the stop on the existing one!
By the way, if it's the 84ps 1.4 engine, you can upgrade it to the full 103ps spec. by changing the throttle body or removing the stop on the existing one!
just my 2p...
if pre 2000, replace the head to block locating dowels (they come with the latest head gasket set, so replace the head gasket while you're there) as the plastic ones allow the head to shuffle around on the block - splitting the gasket seal, rover respecified in 2000 to go back to steel.
get a prt kit from landrover, it comes with a blanking ring to replace the old thermostat and a new thermostat + housing + hosing to relocate the thermostat to the engine output side. this is probably the most important modification (other than ensuring piping annd rad aren't clogged from previous hgf or rusty) for any k
great reading:
http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/index.htm
if pre 2000, replace the head to block locating dowels (they come with the latest head gasket set, so replace the head gasket while you're there) as the plastic ones allow the head to shuffle around on the block - splitting the gasket seal, rover respecified in 2000 to go back to steel.
get a prt kit from landrover, it comes with a blanking ring to replace the old thermostat and a new thermostat + housing + hosing to relocate the thermostat to the engine output side. this is probably the most important modification (other than ensuring piping annd rad aren't clogged from previous hgf or rusty) for any k
great reading:
http://web.tiscali.it/elise_s1/index.htm
TVR Moneypit said:
I used to run a 1.8 Rover 75 as a daily hack. I'd check fluid levels, tyre pressures etc weekly. Whatever that car needed it got asap. Then one day out of the blue, (after 14 months of ownership and 40'000 miles), the temp guage shot into the red and it suffered HGF. After that I just fired it off to auction.
I'm not in a rush to buy another K-Series engined car.
Interesting. What was the total mileage and before disposing of the car, were you able to find the reason for "HGF" ? Did you have the car from new or, was it acquired as a used "hack" as you describe? I'm not in a rush to buy another K-Series engined car.
Head Gaskets rarely actually fail on ANY car, they are usually first damaged by some other agency, overheating following loss of coolant often the prime suspect. Then damaged by the excessive heat, they're no longer able to do the job they're designed to do.
Chap at work advertising his Rover for sale on the notice board. Had it from new and now with 110,000 miles on the clock. He mentions the very reliable Honda engine. His car has K-Series engine...
.
TVR Moneypit said:
MGJohn said:
TVR Moneypit said:
I used to run a 1.8 Rover 75 as a daily hack. I'd check fluid levels, tyre pressures etc weekly. Whatever that car needed it got asap. Then one day out of the blue, (after 14 months of ownership and 40'000 miles), the temp guage shot into the red and it suffered HGF. After that I just fired it off to auction.
I'm not in a rush to buy another K-Series engined car.
Interesting. What was the total mileage and before disposing of the car, were you able to find the reason for "HGF" ? Did you have the car from new or, was it acquired as a used "hack" as you describe? I'm not in a rush to buy another K-Series engined car.
Head Gaskets rarely actually fail on ANY car, they are usually first damaged by some other agency, overheating following loss of coolant often the prime suspect. Then damaged by the excessive heat, they're no longer able to do the job they're designed to do.
Chap at work advertising his Rover for sale on the notice board. Had it from new and now with 110,000 miles on the clock. He mentions the very reliable Honda engine. His car has K-Series engine...
.
From what I can remember from last November, (when it happened), I'd travelled back home from Newcastle to Sheffield one evening, and about 1/2 mile from home the heater went cool, but the temp gauge stayed at the half way mark. After dinner I found that the expansion tank had pretty much emptied, (it had been checked 5 days before, as this happened on a Friday night).
I topped it up with coolent, pressure tested the system, changed the thermostat, and still had the same problems. At which point I conceeded defeat and fired it off to auction. I'd had just over a years worth of motoring out of it and only lost £1500. it wasn't the most comfatable of hacks that I have owned, nor the most fuel efficiant, added to which it was pretty gutless. I wasn;t overly impressed with it TBH, and I feel that it fell somewhat short of the standereds set by the Saab 9-3 and Audi A4 that preceeded it in almost every respect.
Had the R75/MGZT been fitted with the much more substantial Rover T16 2 litre power plant, particularly in its turbocharged form, I'd have had one from day one. For whatever reason, BMW/Rover not using that proven 2 litre engine still being made in their workshops, is yet another example of a missed opportunity.
After all in the final analysis, 40,000 miles with a mere £1500 loss is not exactly poor value......
I ran an MG ZR for a couple of years with the 160PS VVC engine.
I asked all these questions before buying, and decided the HG would be fine if I looked after it.
Unfortunately this turned out to be untrue, and I had HGF at about 50k miles. I never revved the engine form cold, checked the fluid levels regularly, and had it properly serviced at the correct intervals and it still went.
It also broke it's clutch cable, needed new temperature sensor, lambda sensor, and fan switch. (I did not allow the engine to overheat when these failed). The alternator also went, the central locking failed and the interior gradually disintegrated.
I'm sure there are good cars out there with the k series, but there seem to be a lot of dogs as well
I asked all these questions before buying, and decided the HG would be fine if I looked after it.
Unfortunately this turned out to be untrue, and I had HGF at about 50k miles. I never revved the engine form cold, checked the fluid levels regularly, and had it properly serviced at the correct intervals and it still went.
It also broke it's clutch cable, needed new temperature sensor, lambda sensor, and fan switch. (I did not allow the engine to overheat when these failed). The alternator also went, the central locking failed and the interior gradually disintegrated.
I'm sure there are good cars out there with the k series, but there seem to be a lot of dogs as well
HG failure on these is more often than not acutally caused by the inlet manifold failing ,the car gradually uses all its own coolant ,overheats and THEN suffers HG failure .I have seen people need to do the job a few times on the same car on the cheap before realising you HAVE to use a new headset on these cars ,not just a new HG .Original ,early HG's were also of a VERY poor design - later cars and some aftermarket HG's are now a far superior sandwich plate design .
BTW ,MGJohn ,have fun re-assembling the VVC set up if you have to strip the head......!
Cheers
RC
BTW ,MGJohn ,have fun re-assembling the VVC set up if you have to strip the head......!
Cheers
RC
Rollcage said:
HG failure on these is more often than not acutally caused by the inlet manifold failing ,the car gradually uses all its own coolant ,overheats and THEN suffers HG failure .I have seen people need to do the job a few times on the same car on the cheap before realising you HAVE to use a new headset on these cars ,not just a new HG .Original ,early HG's were also of a VERY poor design - later cars and some aftermarket HG's are now a far superior sandwich plate design .
BTW ,MGJohn ,have fun re-assembling the VVC set up if you have to strip the head......!
Cheers
RC
...BTW ,MGJohn ,have fun re-assembling the VVC set up if you have to strip the head......!
Cheers
RC
My MG and Rover mad son and his mates are well clued up on the K-Series and the VVC variants. My son has TWO VVC cars ~ one transplanted into his 1993 Rover Metro bought new in the family and given to him when he was seventeen and just passed his test. They swap engines and upgrade their cars just for fun.
Nice that there are some youngsters who DO consider these Rovers and MGs as cool. They are good judges in my books and not influenced by all this image doctor bullshyte which is so widespread in many UK car consumers and sadly, some car enthusiasts. One of my son's Metro Mad friends turned up today ~ in this:~
Much rather they spend their time and money on cars than what other youngsters of their age get up to.
When they were still at school in their teens, I often took my sons and some of their friends over to my field and let them loose in a high mileage MG Montego I had at the time. This experience changed the minds of some of those boys but not all as the influence of their Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Boxster owning parents advised them strongly to avoid 'British' cars. Not all took that advice preferring their own judgement and experience. However, some of the others did follow their parents' advice, bought foreign and lived to regret it. It can hurt and not only in their pockets.
I took a few pictutes back then ~ these were digital shots of 6 x 4" prints hence poor quality but, illustrate the point. Here's one:~
My sons and their friends were able to gain experience handling a fairly powerful saloon on the rough well before they were old enough to hold a driving licence. Both my sons and my wife who I also taught to drive initially ( in an MGB ) passed their driving tests at the first attempt. With the passing of the years, all now think I'm a crap driver .... far too impatient apparently .... does get a bit thin with the passing years....
..
Rollcage said:
HG failure on these is more often than not acutally caused by the inlet manifold failing ,the car gradually uses all its own coolant ,overheats and THEN suffers HG failure .
This definately did not happen. Because I checked the coolant level regularly, the level never dropped much below min. It started gradually using more coolant, which became very oily. That and the clouds of steam from the exhaust under acceleration kind of gave the game away......... Gassing Station | Rover | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff