Final Comments
Discussion
With respect to everybody who posts on this forum but the "quality" issues threads are getting really boring. TVR don't read them or if they do, they don't do anything about it. Its all documented now and maybe PetrolTed should create a "quality issues" folder that contains all the respective threads etc. That way newcomers can quickly find the info they need.
if you have problems with your car then vote with your feet if you feel so inclined, otherwise, enjoy it for what it is. Its definitely unique.
I voted with my feet for reasons that are well documented and am unlikely to consider TVR ownership again. Apart from the poor build quality and quirky interior (window switches are awful and speedo is unreadable), the car is extremely desirable, however, the philosophy of TVR in not employing modern driver aids such as ABS, Traction control and airbags is unforgiveable. I found it hard to push and enjoy the car knowing that if I lost it, the consequences would be severe in relative terms compared to a "modern" car. That was the mistake I made in not researching the car properly and allowing my heart to rule my head.
I don't understand people who thinks it is macho not to have safety systems....at least as an option. Perhaps they have never seen or lost family / friends in traffic accidents.
TVR deserve to be a better car manufacturer than they presently are but I don't think they will improve under the present management. There is a complete market segment that they are missing out on due to the quality and safety issues. But you all know that anyway.
Amazing machine but you need to know what your buying.
Cheers
if you have problems with your car then vote with your feet if you feel so inclined, otherwise, enjoy it for what it is. Its definitely unique.
I voted with my feet for reasons that are well documented and am unlikely to consider TVR ownership again. Apart from the poor build quality and quirky interior (window switches are awful and speedo is unreadable), the car is extremely desirable, however, the philosophy of TVR in not employing modern driver aids such as ABS, Traction control and airbags is unforgiveable. I found it hard to push and enjoy the car knowing that if I lost it, the consequences would be severe in relative terms compared to a "modern" car. That was the mistake I made in not researching the car properly and allowing my heart to rule my head.
I don't understand people who thinks it is macho not to have safety systems....at least as an option. Perhaps they have never seen or lost family / friends in traffic accidents.
TVR deserve to be a better car manufacturer than they presently are but I don't think they will improve under the present management. There is a complete market segment that they are missing out on due to the quality and safety issues. But you all know that anyway.
Amazing machine but you need to know what your buying.
Cheers
My classic-shape Saab 900 Turbo does not have airbags, ABS or stability control-systems. Still, research on real life safety has shown it to be significantly safer than the average car on the road, and on a par with much newer models that are considered to be 'safe as houses' such as the '96-'02 VW Passat or late-model BMW's. How comes, you'd say? Well...
Airbags are SUPPLEMENTARY to seatbelts and their contibution to overall safety is relatively minor. In some cases they are a detriment to safety, although it has to be said the overall balance is positive. The real reason airbags have been adopted across the industry is that a large proprtion of US drivers find it an infringement to their 'freedom' to have to buckle up, and declines (I think it an infringement to my wallet having to pay the hospital bills and loss of income of people that choose not to wear them, but that's another discussion). The US govenment had therefore insisted that all cars should be equipped with some passive restraint system, and airbags are a much more elegant solution than the 'passive' seatbelts found in US-spec cars of the late eighties.
Four-point harnsses however would be a bigger contributor to overall vehicle safety than airbags.
ABS allows you to brake and steer at the same time. It won't shorten your brake distances, but makes sure that your brake distance will be close to optimal in a wide range of conditions. Someone that chooses to drive a 300+ hp sports car should have the basic ability to brake, then release the brakes and steer around the obstruction in case of an emergency. That's what I learnt in a simple 'grip/slip' safety course aimed at the lowest sommon denominator of drivers. For the lack of ABS, you are rewerded with a better pedal feel that allows a good driver to get closer to the point where the wheels lock up, and thus brake more efficiently than ABS would allow. Also, you get more information through the pedal about brake fade etc. on particularly hard, repeated use (tack driving etc.)
Research has indicated that ABS isn't such a clear-cut advantage to road safety as thought, mainly due to people dricing more closely to the car in front of them and failing to adapt their driving to different weather/road conditions.
Same goes for traction and stability control problems. They allow people to use more of what longitudinal and lateral grip is available more of the time - but that means if the laws of physics are trespassed, people are likely to fly off the road at a higher speed than without these elctronic 'guard dogs'. Both of my cars lack these drivers' aids. If I enter a given bend at say 50 mph, I feel the car not following my steering input to the full 100 percent anymore, and that feeling will gradually get stronger at 51, 52, 55... mph until the adhesion limit is reached at 70 mph. Therefore I am unlikely to be trespassing that limit. Now with ESP or whatever they call it, the car will self-correct its 'natural' behaviour so 69 mph feels sompletely and utterly afe. Next day, I'll navigate the bend at 71 mph and find myself in big trouble...
IMO, 'modern' safety features will buy you a false sense of security more than anything else. In some cases they might compliment good basic safety engineering, but they will never be a substitute - nevertheless that's what they are used for mostly - to try and compensated for less than desirable vehicle dynamics that are the result of current design trends (MPV's and SUV's witn a high center of gravity, the average car having gained about 300 kg of weight compared with 15 years ago, rigourously shortened lead times for new design leaving less opportunity to sort chassis dynamics out in all driving conditions - one senior member of the European Car of the Year jury told me that the Peugeot 307 would spin backwards on the standard lane chage test at 55 kn/h with ESP disabled, where it's ESP-free forebear would do the same test at 10 km/h higher with no problems). Now ESP is widely adapted on cars because consumer organizations and the German car mags demand it - even when there's no need to.
Lastly, I see late-model cars with airbags, ABS, etc, sitting on cheapo tyres from Kwik Fit et al. Be advised that for instance on wet braking from 100 km/h, 'budget' tyres are found to need braking distances up to 17 metres (!) longer than with an OE-spec reference tyre - meaning the car with the A-brand tyres will have stopped where the car on 'cheap' tyres still has a speed of almost 50 km/h. Hit a solid object at that speed and the rescue marshals will have to cut you out of your car, airbags or not... Same goes for brakes, shock absorbers, etc. These are the REAL safety items on your car - be sure to use only the very best, and by all accounts you'll be safer than with airbags etc. And if you are really concerneed with the safety of you and yours on the road, please take some kind of advanced drivers training. Don't rely on microchips to keep you on the straight and narrow - take responsibility.
Airbags are SUPPLEMENTARY to seatbelts and their contibution to overall safety is relatively minor. In some cases they are a detriment to safety, although it has to be said the overall balance is positive. The real reason airbags have been adopted across the industry is that a large proprtion of US drivers find it an infringement to their 'freedom' to have to buckle up, and declines (I think it an infringement to my wallet having to pay the hospital bills and loss of income of people that choose not to wear them, but that's another discussion). The US govenment had therefore insisted that all cars should be equipped with some passive restraint system, and airbags are a much more elegant solution than the 'passive' seatbelts found in US-spec cars of the late eighties.
Four-point harnsses however would be a bigger contributor to overall vehicle safety than airbags.
ABS allows you to brake and steer at the same time. It won't shorten your brake distances, but makes sure that your brake distance will be close to optimal in a wide range of conditions. Someone that chooses to drive a 300+ hp sports car should have the basic ability to brake, then release the brakes and steer around the obstruction in case of an emergency. That's what I learnt in a simple 'grip/slip' safety course aimed at the lowest sommon denominator of drivers. For the lack of ABS, you are rewerded with a better pedal feel that allows a good driver to get closer to the point where the wheels lock up, and thus brake more efficiently than ABS would allow. Also, you get more information through the pedal about brake fade etc. on particularly hard, repeated use (tack driving etc.)
Research has indicated that ABS isn't such a clear-cut advantage to road safety as thought, mainly due to people dricing more closely to the car in front of them and failing to adapt their driving to different weather/road conditions.
Same goes for traction and stability control problems. They allow people to use more of what longitudinal and lateral grip is available more of the time - but that means if the laws of physics are trespassed, people are likely to fly off the road at a higher speed than without these elctronic 'guard dogs'. Both of my cars lack these drivers' aids. If I enter a given bend at say 50 mph, I feel the car not following my steering input to the full 100 percent anymore, and that feeling will gradually get stronger at 51, 52, 55... mph until the adhesion limit is reached at 70 mph. Therefore I am unlikely to be trespassing that limit. Now with ESP or whatever they call it, the car will self-correct its 'natural' behaviour so 69 mph feels sompletely and utterly afe. Next day, I'll navigate the bend at 71 mph and find myself in big trouble...
IMO, 'modern' safety features will buy you a false sense of security more than anything else. In some cases they might compliment good basic safety engineering, but they will never be a substitute - nevertheless that's what they are used for mostly - to try and compensated for less than desirable vehicle dynamics that are the result of current design trends (MPV's and SUV's witn a high center of gravity, the average car having gained about 300 kg of weight compared with 15 years ago, rigourously shortened lead times for new design leaving less opportunity to sort chassis dynamics out in all driving conditions - one senior member of the European Car of the Year jury told me that the Peugeot 307 would spin backwards on the standard lane chage test at 55 kn/h with ESP disabled, where it's ESP-free forebear would do the same test at 10 km/h higher with no problems). Now ESP is widely adapted on cars because consumer organizations and the German car mags demand it - even when there's no need to.
Lastly, I see late-model cars with airbags, ABS, etc, sitting on cheapo tyres from Kwik Fit et al. Be advised that for instance on wet braking from 100 km/h, 'budget' tyres are found to need braking distances up to 17 metres (!) longer than with an OE-spec reference tyre - meaning the car with the A-brand tyres will have stopped where the car on 'cheap' tyres still has a speed of almost 50 km/h. Hit a solid object at that speed and the rescue marshals will have to cut you out of your car, airbags or not... Same goes for brakes, shock absorbers, etc. These are the REAL safety items on your car - be sure to use only the very best, and by all accounts you'll be safer than with airbags etc. And if you are really concerneed with the safety of you and yours on the road, please take some kind of advanced drivers training. Don't rely on microchips to keep you on the straight and narrow - take responsibility.
Agreed all the way. Well said for all of the above. One of the most eloquent and accurate arguments I have ever read on Pistonheads.
And who is forcing people to buy TVRs anyway. If its not your cup of tea, then buy something that does mollycoddle with every 'safety aid' invented today. In fact, get someone else to drive you and sit in the back - or just stay in doors for the rest of your life, eat too many chip butties and die of a sudden heaet attack after living a boring miserable souless...and sport car-less existence. It's one's own choice. QED.
At the risk of a severe flaming:
If TVR cannot reliably fit a speedo, rear splitter, paint, door release, valve guides yada yada yada.... (this is only what I have gleaned from reading threads on this site as I am unfortunately not in the position to purchase a Dark metallic blue (williams F1 colour) T350C) what chance would they have with airbags, ABS or traction control!!!! It would probably end up doing more harm than good!
I would still have one though (as a 5th car).
If TVR cannot reliably fit a speedo, rear splitter, paint, door release, valve guides yada yada yada.... (this is only what I have gleaned from reading threads on this site as I am unfortunately not in the position to purchase a Dark metallic blue (williams F1 colour) T350C) what chance would they have with airbags, ABS or traction control!!!! It would probably end up doing more harm than good!
I would still have one though (as a 5th car).
This is such a done to death debate but it's nice to see some different point of view.
I actually do believe that TVR have finally sorted the Speed six. The difference between my old Tamora and my T350 engine wise, is night and day in terms of it being quieter and smoother and it does feel significantly different.
However, build quality wise, my Tamora was better. I just hope they can someday get the whole package right. I'm not bothered about ABS and never have been. The brakes on modern TVR's are fanatastic, but I do think traction control would be of benefit.
Pound for pound nothing gets near a TVR in performance terms, and running costs within this category, until something does get near most of us will carry on buying them. Thats really the bottom line...
I actually do believe that TVR have finally sorted the Speed six. The difference between my old Tamora and my T350 engine wise, is night and day in terms of it being quieter and smoother and it does feel significantly different.
However, build quality wise, my Tamora was better. I just hope they can someday get the whole package right. I'm not bothered about ABS and never have been. The brakes on modern TVR's are fanatastic, but I do think traction control would be of benefit.
Pound for pound nothing gets near a TVR in performance terms, and running costs within this category, until something does get near most of us will carry on buying them. Thats really the bottom line...
a.g. said:
ABS WILL shorten your stopping distance in nearly all situations
I don't understand that - a car held just on the threshold of locking up will stop in a shorter distance than one that is locking and unlocking hundreds of times a second (which involves removing all retardation as the brake force is released and reapplied) - surely?
What ABS does give is consistancy and the ability to steer, unless it is a loosesnowy surface in which case it all goes wrong and abs won't stop the car anywhere near as well as a simple pair of locked front wheels.
900-TR, thanks for that interesting response.
However, I think you are looking at the driver and safety aids issues from the point of view of an expert driver and you have not taken into account the young lad in a Peugeot 206 180hp or Mini with 200hp that has not the experience to tame that power and if he does not have an accident himself he may cause an accident. No matter how good a driver you are, there is always that guy out there who is going to involve you in an accident whether you like it or not. I still believe that airbags are a life saver in certain circumstances and I'm talking from personal experience. ABS has got to be good IMHO. Likewise traction control in a car like the Tuscan with its Power to weight ratio, especially on a wet road.
But before St George points it out, there is somebody who has fitted traction control to his Tuscan and there's a thread on it. Probably best to ask him his opinion.
Cheers
>> Edited by ghunter on Sunday 7th September 12:44
However, I think you are looking at the driver and safety aids issues from the point of view of an expert driver and you have not taken into account the young lad in a Peugeot 206 180hp or Mini with 200hp that has not the experience to tame that power and if he does not have an accident himself he may cause an accident. No matter how good a driver you are, there is always that guy out there who is going to involve you in an accident whether you like it or not. I still believe that airbags are a life saver in certain circumstances and I'm talking from personal experience. ABS has got to be good IMHO. Likewise traction control in a car like the Tuscan with its Power to weight ratio, especially on a wet road.
But before St George points it out, there is somebody who has fitted traction control to his Tuscan and there's a thread on it. Probably best to ask him his opinion.
Cheers
>> Edited by ghunter on Sunday 7th September 12:44
ghunter said:
900-TR, thanks for that interesting response.
However, I think you are looking at the driver and safety aids issues from the point of view of an expert driver and you have not taken into account the young lad in a Peugeot 206 180hp or Mini with 200hp that has not the experience to tame that power and if he does not have an accident himself he may cause an accident.
TBH, electronic guard dogs scare me the most with car/driver combos like the ones you mentioned. Generally speaking, those lads will exploit the limits of their cars on public roads sooner rather than later, and I'd rather have the car give a warning of pending disaster somewhere before those limits are reached rather than stability control systems taking 'corrective' measures, making the driver believe (s)he'got everything under control right up to the point the laws of physics are trespassed, when it is going to hurt big time given the very high adhesion limits of modern cars.
I think as young lads we all had some narrow escapes where the car either threatened to plough straight on or the back end stepped out - but I am sure had we not had those events, we would have pushed our cars further. No kind of driver aid can help anymore when you're just going too fast for the tyres to keep us on the tarmac.
You said you got rid of the Tuscan because you were afraid of pushing the car, thinking (rightly) it would bite you if it did. What frightens me is that you would think nothing of pushing the car harder under the same circumstances if you had traction control or whatever. Fright is what keeps us alive in lots of cases.
12:44[/quote]
900T-R said:[/quote]
You said you got rid of the Tuscan because you were afraid of pushing the car, thinking (rightly) it would bite you if it did. What frightens me is that you would think nothing of pushing the car harder under the same circumstances if you had traction control or whatever. Fright is what keeps us alive in lots of cases.
12:44
I was nervous with the car in the wet. In the dry, less so, but still very respectful. My opinion is that traction control could make the car more controllable under a certain set of circumstances and would be a nice option to have. I certainly would have considered fitting the Racelogic version had it not invalidated the warranty. I don't think its a question of pushing the car harder but of being more in control for the same given set of conditions.
Cheers
Just a couple of things. A modern ABS system will outperform most of us, certainly in the wet. ABS was banned from saloon car racing because it was too good.
Think of it as a performance enhancement.
ABS has saved me on a couple of occasions while driving my 911, anyone can have a lapse.
Lack of ABS didnt stop me from getting a Tuscan though.
Think of it as a performance enhancement.
ABS has saved me on a couple of occasions while driving my 911, anyone can have a lapse.
Lack of ABS didnt stop me from getting a Tuscan though.
This is all conjecture not driving a twat on public roads will keep you alive 9 times out of 10.
I have been driving serious sports cars for many years with no driver aids, i am still here.The problem with tvr's IMHO is people who are used to modern front wheel drive cars realising your average tvr does 0-60 quicker than most supercars and rushing to there nearest dealer with little or no experiance of driving such a car.
I have been driving serious sports cars for many years with no driver aids, i am still here.The problem with tvr's IMHO is people who are used to modern front wheel drive cars realising your average tvr does 0-60 quicker than most supercars and rushing to there nearest dealer with little or no experiance of driving such a car.
Altough i have a griff 500 i also have a rangie with all the bits and bobs. The griff has one brake pedal and the rangie has four, all controlled by ABS, one locks up, the others continue to give maximum.In the griff i would have to reduce all round.Even if i was a great great driver i could not better that. As far as traction, yes if you want to have fun, have it switchable. Living on a farm, a rangie fully side ways is great fun, but on the road, not.
ghunter said:
You said you got rid of the Tuscan because you were afraid of pushing the car, thinking (rightly) it would bite you if it did. What frightens me is that you would think nothing of pushing the car harder under the same circumstances if you had traction control or whatever. Fright is what keeps us alive in lots of cases.
12:44
I was nervous with the car in the wet. In the dry, less so, but still very respectful. My opinion is that traction control could make the car more controllable under a certain set of circumstances and would be a nice option to have. I certainly would have considered fitting the Racelogic version had it not invalidated the warranty. I don't think its a question of pushing the car harder but of being more in control for the same given set of conditions.
Cheers[/quote]
All the electronic aids in the world cannot get round the laws of physics, once you have exceeded the grip of your tyres you will lose traction, and if this happens on a corner (as is most common) then you will spin.
I think you are missing the point that 900T-R was making, it is all about the amount of warning you get while aproaching that limit, with electronic aids you are helped round the warning signs and so feel in control, without the aids you notice things getting towrds the limit - the fact is the limit is the same, so, do you want to be warned it is aproaching or just go over the limit and spin with no warning? (OK so with the electronic aids you get a light flashing on the dash, but that is easily missed when cornering hard)
Graham
a.g. said:
Positive comments on the Tuscan thread!!!!!! 
Excellent. Might visit more often.
Well done 900T-R because what you have done (possibly inadveredly, being a Citroen driver) is to sum up the mindset of a TVR pilot. Nice rant and am in agreement with all you say BUT with respect to ABS you are talking bo77ocks. ABS WILL shorten your stopping distance in nearly all situations and allows steering whilst at max braking force.
Goodnight
Responded on a different thread on the same subject - NAFF OFF...
Common misconception I am afraid. If we are talking RACING ABS, like the system that was fitted to the Audi Touring cars a few years ago, yes it was good. But they banned it for the cost and because linked with the 4x4 system it gave them an unfair advantage.
That said, I have been fortunate enough to have had racing school experience. As part of this we were dramatically illustrated the difference between ABS and NON-ABS. We used Pug 306GTI6's and did some initial tests with the ABS engaged. This gave very consistent stopping distances for all students. These distances were marked out for each of us on a separate piece of track (we each had a car). Next they disabled the ABS with a small piece of metal - then repeated the exercise.... Ok, to start with we overshot or underbraked, but in the end we ALL managed to reduce our braking distances to MUCH less than that for ABS.... in fact the illustration was that we can carry more speed and brake better (in the same distance) for a corner and hence be ultimately MUCH faster than an ABS equiped car.....
Does an ABS car stop in a shorter distance than a NON-ABS car? NO. Common misconception. A well trained human is always going to be better and you will always stop shorter....
So lets drop the ABS crap please?
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