Tuscan starting issue

[SonicHedgeHog]

Asking for my cousin (really! My Tamora is just peachy). His 4.3 Tuscan has the following issue:

Will start from cold. If you then stop, wait a while, and then try to start it, it wont have it. The starter motor tries/it cranks, however the engine will not fire up.

Also, the EFI warning and Warning light 4 keeps coming up, and the engine does not feel smooth at all.

Can anyone offer any useful advice please?

[SonicHedgeHog]

I’ve been doing some digging. Does this sound like the battery is on its last legs? I would imagine a bigger 4.3 starter motor drains quite a lot of juice from the battery. Common boffins, let’s work this one out!

[B'stard Child]

Sounds like bore wash to me

Does it spin over with a different sound when it won't start?

[nawarne]

My two-pennorth!

1) Battery on last legs.
2) Starter motor old - after ~ 15 years in that hot environment brushes/solenoid/bearings are all getting tired.
3) Cable from battery +ve getting old....as above.

I renewed the cable in 40mm.sq. cable - some improvement. Then got factory reconditioned starter from local factor. Bosch - refurb'd in Hungary, guaranteed for 2 years ~ £100.
Perfect starting now, even when hot.

Nick

[Getsis]

1st change/check battery condition.
2nd change starter motor
3rd Coil pack

One of those will fix the issue

[SonicHedgeHog]

Thanks chaps. Seems my engineering knowledge is improving. Go me!

The next thing he is going to ask is what battery. Given it’s a 4.3 with (probably) the bigger starter motor I think the biggest battery possible is the way to go. What’s the best battery that fits in a Tuscan regardless of cost?

[s3dave]

SonicHedgeHog said:

Will start from cold. If you then stop, wait a while, and then try to start it, it wont have it. The starter motor tries/it cranks, however the engine will not fire up.

I suggest we need more info. Are you saying when hot it cranks over but will not start? ie engine turns over at a good speed and will not fire. if this is so its not battery. I ask as you say it will start from cold, which is the one that puts the most load on the battery.

[SonicHedgeHog]

s3dave said:

I suggest we need more info. Are you saying when hot it cranks over but will not start? ie engine turns over at a good speed and will not fire. if this is so its not battery. I ask as you say it will start from cold, which is the one that puts the most load on the battery.

Yes, that seems to be the issue. The problem first occurred after the car came out of winter hibernation. Started ok, went to the petrol station, tried to restart after refuelling but it wouldn’t have it. I don’t know if he has the bigger 4.3 starter motor or not. The car had been at Central for several months last year and was then popped into the garage for the winter. It’s had very, very little use in the last 12 months.

[B'stard Child]

s3dave said:

I suggest we need more info. Are you saying when hot it cranks over but will not start? ie engine turns over at a good speed and will not fire. if this is so its not battery. I ask as you say it will start from cold, which is the one that puts the most load on the battery.

I understood as when it was cold started and shut down shortly after it won't re-start - hence my comment about bore-wash being a potential reason

If it's a "won't restart when hot" then it's a whole different reason - voltage drop on old cables would be my guess

[s3dave]

SonicHedgeHog said:

s3dave said:

I suggest we need more info. Are you saying when hot it cranks over but will not start? ie engine turns over at a good speed and will not fire. if this is so its not battery. I ask as you say it will start from cold, which is the one that puts the most load on the battery.

Yes, that seems to be the issue. The problem first occurred after the car came out of winter hibernation. Started ok, went to the petrol station, tried to restart after refuelling but it wouldn’t have it. I don’t know if he has the bigger 4.3 starter motor or not. The car had been at Central for several months last year and was then popped into the garage for the winter. It’s had very, very little use in the last 12 months.

I wondered. Similar issue I found with my sag earlier this year.

After not using it over the winter it ran slightly rough. After filling it up with fresh 99 octane fuel (and having a problem starting from hot at the petrol station) the problem subsequently cleared.

Also last year on a couple of occasions I had problems starting from hot. leaving it 5-10 mins solved it. I was recently told (so have not tried it) that if this happens disconnect the temperature sensor on the airbox, this send the ECU into a reversionary mode and it will start. I guess my ECU is mapped to run slightly rich.

I hope that most of your friends problems will be solved now he has new fuel (once the residue of the old has gone).

[s3dave]

As an aside I have been told that E5 fuel goes off quicker. So this may become a more common problem

[SonicHedgeHog]

Useful stuff, thanks. Is there any reason why he shouldn’t start it, let it warm up and then go for a long drive. I’m thinking run the tank close to empty and then refuel? Is it likely to do any damage?

[Konrod]

Reading all of the comments (and between the lines) it starts from cold, won't restart when hot (regardless of how long it has been running provided it is hot when turned off), and if then left for a while it will then restart.

If that is the case then it is heat related. I'm not aware fuel evaporation is a problem on SP6, so I'd be looking at the starter/solenoid/cables/coil pack.

If the starter is drawing more current when hot, or the main supply/earth cables have increased resistance, it will limit supply to the ignition system - it's the same effect as having a low battery, it may have enough to turn the starter, but not enough on top to supply the ignition system at the same time. Could be as simple as rusty terminals after winter storage.

[s3dave]

Konrod said:

Reading all of the comments (and between the lines) it starts from cold, won't restart when hot (regardless of how long it has been running provided it is hot when turned off), and if then left for a while it will then restart.

If that is the case then it is heat related. I'm not aware fuel evaporation is a problem on SP6, so I'd be looking at the starter/solenoid/cables/coil pack.
.

I think you are overthinking it. When starting from hot, I think the S6 can be easily flooded.

As for the question of driving it with the old fuel, I would suggest fill it up as much as you can to dilute it (which he has already done), drive till half tank, refill and it will probably be all right. When I had the problem earlier this year, I was nearly empty, within a few miles of filling up, it was ok.

[Basil Brush]

If the efi warning is coming up then there must be a bigger issue than battery & starter?

[SonicHedgeHog]

Basil Brush said:

If the efi warning is coming up then there must be a bigger issue than battery & starter?

Well, an electronic fuel injection warning light could be activated by a lack of volts/amps reaching the fuel injection system which could be caused by most of the issues people are suggesting. The fact that it’s a second/hot start issue says to me the expensive stuff is working ok but a component somewhere is failing and in need of replacement.

I’m keen to choose the cheap option first and tell him to go for a drive as a starter for ten. He could drive up to TVR Power and then try and restart. If the fault reoccurs he’s in the right place to get it sorted. I just want to be sure no lasting damage will be done on that drive. Probably need to call Power I guess.

[Curdster]

Could it be the crank shaft sensor on its way out?.

Edited by Curdster on Thursday 13th May 15:32

[PetrolHeadPete]

Good shout. When cranking but not firing does the dash report any rpm?