(early?) Tuscan Steering Shaft
Discussion
I'm gradually getting around to doing all the bits and pieces I need to do on my early (2000 W) Tuscan.
Ive always had an issue with the steering, heavy in places, won't self-centre, massive banging and crashing through the front suspension ..
anyway i've gradually gone through things and so far, to great effect, I've :
removed the aftermarket spacers from between the hubs and the steering arms
removed the 3mm wheel spacers
put the upper wishbones on the correct sides (they were on the wrong sides / upside down)
re-installed the powerflex bushes with my own turned spacer thrust washers (I don't like how powerflex do their upper arm bushes)
Removed the front nitrons (there's something very wrong with those! no compression resistance at all) and put std dampers on.
reset the camber and tracking and it's much much happier now.
But ..I still have an issue with the steering going light-heavy-light as if a steering UJ is seized but they're not.
However .. I was always taught to have the UJs in-line and indeed most steering shafts have a cut-out rather than an annular groove to force you into positioning the UJ in one orientation
My intermediate steering shaft adjacent to the fusebox looks like the picture below which looks wrong to me. The UJs aren't in line, but they're assembled on the shaft in such a way that you can't change their orientation.
What I'd like to know is does anyone else's early Tuscan intermediate shaft look like this? Or are the UJs in line on yours and mine's been assembled wrongly somehow (though from how it's assembled and pressed together that would mean the initial design and assembly work was always wrong ..)
any help appreciated cheers
Ive always had an issue with the steering, heavy in places, won't self-centre, massive banging and crashing through the front suspension ..
anyway i've gradually gone through things and so far, to great effect, I've :
removed the aftermarket spacers from between the hubs and the steering arms
removed the 3mm wheel spacers
put the upper wishbones on the correct sides (they were on the wrong sides / upside down)
re-installed the powerflex bushes with my own turned spacer thrust washers (I don't like how powerflex do their upper arm bushes)
Removed the front nitrons (there's something very wrong with those! no compression resistance at all) and put std dampers on.
reset the camber and tracking and it's much much happier now.
But ..I still have an issue with the steering going light-heavy-light as if a steering UJ is seized but they're not.
However .. I was always taught to have the UJs in-line and indeed most steering shafts have a cut-out rather than an annular groove to force you into positioning the UJ in one orientation
My intermediate steering shaft adjacent to the fusebox looks like the picture below which looks wrong to me. The UJs aren't in line, but they're assembled on the shaft in such a way that you can't change their orientation.
What I'd like to know is does anyone else's early Tuscan intermediate shaft look like this? Or are the UJs in line on yours and mine's been assembled wrongly somehow (though from how it's assembled and pressed together that would mean the initial design and assembly work was always wrong ..)
any help appreciated cheers
Thanks for that info!
Looks identical to mine on the images so will discount that at the moment, though the fact it seems to firstly travel in the wrong direction (like the next shaft coming through the bulkhead is too long ..) might be another issue.
many thanks for the info, it's put my mind at rest that at least the UJ orientation is supposed to be like that !
Looks identical to mine on the images so will discount that at the moment, though the fact it seems to firstly travel in the wrong direction (like the next shaft coming through the bulkhead is too long ..) might be another issue.
many thanks for the info, it's put my mind at rest that at least the UJ orientation is supposed to be like that !
Yep, same on mine in lots of ways.
The symptoms you describe nag me. No feeling of what is going on at the wheel road junction. Anyway I have changed everything, I mean everything, and am still plagued by numb steer, well in my opinion anyway. The UJ s being in line doesn’t make sense to me, I agree in that it is considered good practice but if you imagine the motion of the joints in rotation I cannot see how it matters.
What I dont like, and I did think of changing as I don’t ever tilt the column, is the upper part of the column to one without a tilt, ftom I think the Earlier Vectra. It would mean moving the ignition barrel hole in the steering cowel as it would be at 90 degrees to the column. Not for the faint hearted but it would remove another point of friction and play.
The bush in the body that the column passes through is a source of problems, bit of an odd ball idea this one.
Let me know how you get on, keen to improve mine
Cheers
J
The symptoms you describe nag me. No feeling of what is going on at the wheel road junction. Anyway I have changed everything, I mean everything, and am still plagued by numb steer, well in my opinion anyway. The UJ s being in line doesn’t make sense to me, I agree in that it is considered good practice but if you imagine the motion of the joints in rotation I cannot see how it matters.
What I dont like, and I did think of changing as I don’t ever tilt the column, is the upper part of the column to one without a tilt, ftom I think the Earlier Vectra. It would mean moving the ignition barrel hole in the steering cowel as it would be at 90 degrees to the column. Not for the faint hearted but it would remove another point of friction and play.
The bush in the body that the column passes through is a source of problems, bit of an odd ball idea this one.
Let me know how you get on, keen to improve mine
Cheers
J
Edited by Sagi Badger on Wednesday 2nd May 21:12
Could the crashing etc be the drop links on the ARB ? Mine looked ok but on swapping to the improved RG ones (at the same time as going to poly's all round) the compliance and lack of crashiness is frankly amazing.
Mines a 2002 and for sure the self centering is almost non-existant, but can't say I've noticed numbness or variation in resistance. Would that stack up with my car's age (changed front wishbones etc) ?
Mines a 2002 and for sure the self centering is almost non-existant, but can't say I've noticed numbness or variation in resistance. Would that stack up with my car's age (changed front wishbones etc) ?
It goes where it is pointed, very well in fact, but you just don’t get feedback. My Elise gave so much it was almost too much, if I jumped out of the truck into the Elise it was scary until the brain adjusted, the Sag is spot on for feel but I can push on more in the Tuscan before it gets out of shape but there is no warning when this will happen.
J
J
OK so I've done a bit more work on this now.
I've found by trial and error that the issue is with that vauxhall shaft and it's crazy angle of attack.
I've done various things over the past couple of days including but not limited to :
Filing extra pinch bolt grooves so I can push the UJs further down the steering shaft to effectively lengthen the vauxhall shaft and shorten the tvr shaft so putting the vauxhall UJs at a very slightly more favourable angle. This improved matters ever so slightly but still rubbish.
I next disassembled everything again and took the bulkhead bush off, ground the fibreglass and the side of bush carrier so I could push it as far to the centreline of the car as possible, limited only by the tvr shaft now being 2mm away from the top chassis rail. This has had a massive improvement on the feel of the steering.
Whilst the bush carrier was out I also reassembled everything and turned the steering ..
the shaft sat at the bottom of the hole under gravity through the first part of turning the wheel, but as soon as the steering started to bind up the shaft lifted in the hole until I'd passed through the tight part and got back to the looser part of the rotation whereupon the shaft promptly fell to the bottom of the hole again.
For the later cars tvr changed to a ford column and took the steering shaft on the other side of the top chassis rail, and I think this routing is what I really need to be trying to achieve, but it's not quite so easy on the vauxhall column, and I suspect the reality is that I'd need to take the tvr shaft actually through the top chassis tube!
The play in the pinch bolt grooves also allow you to move the UJ round one spline and still get the pinch bolt through the hole, so I've done this in order to bias the easy steer part of the wheel rotation towards straight ahead. Previously i could turn the steering maybe 45 deg right but only 20 deg left before it started to bind up. By moving the bottom UJ onto the rack one spline, and the tvr shaft one spline and also centering the rack properly (found out it was out and the track rod ends wound on different amounts each side) i've now managed to get 30 odd deg of sweet steering each side of straight ahead. Hopefully this makes the driving experience slightly more livable-with at least.
I will see how it fares longer term before deciding if I need to do anything more radical (redesign!)
basically I think the standard layout is compromised at best and at worst on some cars a cock up (and maybe tvr admitted as much by changing the steering shaft layout on the later cars ??), but the fact not everyone notices these effects or complains suggests they either think the car is supposed to be like this, or that some cars by virtue of various tolerances seem to actually not have this effect, whilst others very much do.
I've found by trial and error that the issue is with that vauxhall shaft and it's crazy angle of attack.
I've done various things over the past couple of days including but not limited to :
Filing extra pinch bolt grooves so I can push the UJs further down the steering shaft to effectively lengthen the vauxhall shaft and shorten the tvr shaft so putting the vauxhall UJs at a very slightly more favourable angle. This improved matters ever so slightly but still rubbish.
I next disassembled everything again and took the bulkhead bush off, ground the fibreglass and the side of bush carrier so I could push it as far to the centreline of the car as possible, limited only by the tvr shaft now being 2mm away from the top chassis rail. This has had a massive improvement on the feel of the steering.
Whilst the bush carrier was out I also reassembled everything and turned the steering ..
the shaft sat at the bottom of the hole under gravity through the first part of turning the wheel, but as soon as the steering started to bind up the shaft lifted in the hole until I'd passed through the tight part and got back to the looser part of the rotation whereupon the shaft promptly fell to the bottom of the hole again.
For the later cars tvr changed to a ford column and took the steering shaft on the other side of the top chassis rail, and I think this routing is what I really need to be trying to achieve, but it's not quite so easy on the vauxhall column, and I suspect the reality is that I'd need to take the tvr shaft actually through the top chassis tube!
The play in the pinch bolt grooves also allow you to move the UJ round one spline and still get the pinch bolt through the hole, so I've done this in order to bias the easy steer part of the wheel rotation towards straight ahead. Previously i could turn the steering maybe 45 deg right but only 20 deg left before it started to bind up. By moving the bottom UJ onto the rack one spline, and the tvr shaft one spline and also centering the rack properly (found out it was out and the track rod ends wound on different amounts each side) i've now managed to get 30 odd deg of sweet steering each side of straight ahead. Hopefully this makes the driving experience slightly more livable-with at least.
I will see how it fares longer term before deciding if I need to do anything more radical (redesign!)
basically I think the standard layout is compromised at best and at worst on some cars a cock up (and maybe tvr admitted as much by changing the steering shaft layout on the later cars ??), but the fact not everyone notices these effects or complains suggests they either think the car is supposed to be like this, or that some cars by virtue of various tolerances seem to actually not have this effect, whilst others very much do.
Nice work and well written. I have wondered why the steering shafts are “hot rod style”, by this I mean taking the tortuous route that they do on the Tuscan. I did think it was to avoid the steering column/shaft being pushed into the drivers face/chest in the event of front end collision but the difference in later cars scuttled this theory. I have though suspected for a long time that the acute angles and the bush position in the bulkhead are a source of trouble, you will recall my mentioning this in the thread, but I didn’t expect there to be a major improvement. I will get cutting and filing.
I think for what I doing with my Tuscan I will change the column for either the Ford version or a non tilt Vauxhall item, in both cases moving the shaft over as you have.
J
I think for what I doing with my Tuscan I will change the column for either the Ford version or a non tilt Vauxhall item, in both cases moving the shaft over as you have.
J
Hi yes here's a couple of pics showing the bulkhead bush pushed towards the centreline of the car, you can see the small gap now between the shaft and the top chassis rail. Excuse the dodgy sealer work haha
The other shows the bottom UJ with my pen marks so I know I've gone a spline in the right direction (!) and also how far I've pushed the spline through the UJ.
The other shows the bottom UJ with my pen marks so I know I've gone a spline in the right direction (!) and also how far I've pushed the spline through the UJ.
Yes .. it was already sliding quite well but greased it anyway and it felt really smooth in operation so I think that's ok.
I also dribbled some heavy oil onto the steering column tilt adjust ball coupling (there's a proper name for it which escapes me for a moment.. ) which had no effect but the steering always rotated easily with the wheel set to any height, with the rest of the shafts disconnected. I just lubed it up because it was easy to do at the time.
I also dribbled some heavy oil onto the steering column tilt adjust ball coupling (there's a proper name for it which escapes me for a moment.. ) which had no effect but the steering always rotated easily with the wheel set to any height, with the rest of the shafts disconnected. I just lubed it up because it was easy to do at the time.
Hopefully edging towards some kind of completion on my poor steering feel now ..
I've never understood why the steering wheel turning feels so much better with the front wheels off the ground, and when on the ground it can be variable .. sometimes passable, sometimes infuriating with diferent feel turning left or right, self centering one way but not the other, then another time self centering ok both ways .. feeling stiff then sometimes lightening up ..
Well I've got a bit of a free day today so whilst I'm waiting on some parts arriving for my dual maps into MBE ecu testing (more on that later) I thought I would have a bit of another look into the front suspension.
I had already made good improvements by getting rid of the bump steer kit and wheel spacers previously fitted and so started taking the front apart bit by bit to see if i could work out where the stiffness lies.
I first thought it was the rack, but with both rod ends off the steering arms it was as free as a bird.
I next though about ball joints .. the offside hub was harder to swivel on it's joints than the nearside. nearside felt silky smooth, offside was notchy at times, but harder to turn one way that the other, then felt ok again ..
A-ha! so I'd found some inconsistency in the feel of the ball joints, but was that really enough to be felt at the steering wheel at road speeds.
Further dismantling revealed the top ball joint to be absolutely perfect, but the bottom ball joint is like the picture below.
The surface has picked up and is incredibly hard to swivel in the vice even with a lever attached to the threaded end.
I hope this is the final culprit. I've got 2 bottom ball joints coming so will report back when I've changed over.
Ignore the dents in the ball in the picture below, that's damage inflicted by my agricultural ball joint splitter! But look at the surface finish of the ball itself. If anyone else is suffering from inconsistent or heavy steering be sure to check your balls!!
I've never understood why the steering wheel turning feels so much better with the front wheels off the ground, and when on the ground it can be variable .. sometimes passable, sometimes infuriating with diferent feel turning left or right, self centering one way but not the other, then another time self centering ok both ways .. feeling stiff then sometimes lightening up ..
Well I've got a bit of a free day today so whilst I'm waiting on some parts arriving for my dual maps into MBE ecu testing (more on that later) I thought I would have a bit of another look into the front suspension.
I had already made good improvements by getting rid of the bump steer kit and wheel spacers previously fitted and so started taking the front apart bit by bit to see if i could work out where the stiffness lies.
I first thought it was the rack, but with both rod ends off the steering arms it was as free as a bird.
I next though about ball joints .. the offside hub was harder to swivel on it's joints than the nearside. nearside felt silky smooth, offside was notchy at times, but harder to turn one way that the other, then felt ok again ..
A-ha! so I'd found some inconsistency in the feel of the ball joints, but was that really enough to be felt at the steering wheel at road speeds.
Further dismantling revealed the top ball joint to be absolutely perfect, but the bottom ball joint is like the picture below.
The surface has picked up and is incredibly hard to swivel in the vice even with a lever attached to the threaded end.
I hope this is the final culprit. I've got 2 bottom ball joints coming so will report back when I've changed over.
Ignore the dents in the ball in the picture below, that's damage inflicted by my agricultural ball joint splitter! But look at the surface finish of the ball itself. If anyone else is suffering from inconsistent or heavy steering be sure to check your balls!!
I think the previous owner said he replaced the ball joints, and certainly they don't look to have picked up anything more than just surface corrosion so not been on long. Poor quality joint from the start I reckon.
I wonder how long it would have been until that rough surface wore through the cup and the joint fell apart?
I wonder how long it would have been until that rough surface wore through the cup and the joint fell apart?
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