Discussion
Last EVO magazine tested Tuscan S, 911 Carrera S, Corvette and other cars. Amazingly, they found Tuscan incredibly fast but very unstable when braking and at high speeds. The fault was, by EVO tester, in suspension/chassis. Someone of you tested the car on his very limits ?
>>> Edited by go-go on Thursday 5th September 12:26
>>> Edited by go-go on Thursday 5th September 12:26
Would have to agree with EVO. Having owned a red rose tuscan and driven the S, they are both incredibly unstable cars under braking and at high speed (and before anyone mentioned the geometry, it was fine).
Its a shame as it lets TVR down, time and time again. Personally I think the factory spend most of their time with heads in the sand.
Took my 2000 Red Rose Tuscan to Bedford on the TVR day, was getting 145mph on the back straight before breaking hard for the chicane - no problems at that speed and no problems when breaking either
And I have had the car up to 170 in Belgium (private test track occifer) with no problems as well (apart from the Merc S600 which wouldnt get out the way!!))
Graham
And I have had the car up to 170 in Belgium (private test track occifer) with no problems as well (apart from the Merc S600 which wouldnt get out the way!!))
Graham
Rich...the roads where evo were testing tend to be quite bumpy, in my experience standard tvr set up (cerbie and chimera) works ok on smooth tracks upto a point, but gets a bit ragged over bumpy stuff, especially under hard braking and with 18" wheels. this is where proper dampers seem to help alot. on my cerbera you could do 20 to 30 mph more over bumpy roads without being thrown around, and the car was much more stable under braking. i suspect jon's car with nitrons is much better than standard in this respect?
What are the chances that it is something to do with the aerodynamics (or some other property) of the individual cars? If one person says that they are skittish and another says he's had his car up to 145 on a track, they can't both talking about the same car.
Personally, I found the Tuscan S I drove to be quite stable. Granted I didn't get anywhere near 145 MPH on the open road but I did have occasion to go a bit faster than I'd prefer any politicians to know about and while the Tuscan isn't the most stable car I've ever driven at high speeds, it wasn't bad.
I wouldn't go 145MPH in it even if such speeds were legal but I wouldn't describe it as "unstable".
Also, under braking, it was phenomenal. I used to be a bit apprehensive about TVR's aversion to ABS. Now I understand why. ABS just isn't necessary in a TVR. I guess people don't realize that a TVR isn't like a German luxo-barge where the combination of 2 ton+ weight and power brakes make locked wheels nearly inevitable.
People who bemoan the lack of ABS in cars like the Tuscan (or Lotus Elise) simply don't have faith in their driving ability. Automotive journalists who berate such companies and accuse them of compromising their customer's safety are hacks going for cheap sensationalism over reporting facts.
At least that's my opinion... ;->
Personally, I found the Tuscan S I drove to be quite stable. Granted I didn't get anywhere near 145 MPH on the open road but I did have occasion to go a bit faster than I'd prefer any politicians to know about and while the Tuscan isn't the most stable car I've ever driven at high speeds, it wasn't bad.
I wouldn't go 145MPH in it even if such speeds were legal but I wouldn't describe it as "unstable".
Also, under braking, it was phenomenal. I used to be a bit apprehensive about TVR's aversion to ABS. Now I understand why. ABS just isn't necessary in a TVR. I guess people don't realize that a TVR isn't like a German luxo-barge where the combination of 2 ton+ weight and power brakes make locked wheels nearly inevitable.
People who bemoan the lack of ABS in cars like the Tuscan (or Lotus Elise) simply don't have faith in their driving ability. Automotive journalists who berate such companies and accuse them of compromising their customer's safety are hacks going for cheap sensationalism over reporting facts.
At least that's my opinion... ;->
quote:
People who bemoan the lack of ABS in cars like the Tuscan (or Lotus Elise) simply don't have faith in their driving ability.
Sorry, but I think you are way off. I would go as far as to say that ABS should become mandatory for all new vehicles. No amount of driver skill can compensate for locked wheels on a greasy surface. Cadence braking is not even close. You obviously haven't avoided a serious accident by the narrowest of margins, when someone else did something stupid right in front of you on a wet bend. I have, and it convinced me that ABS is a life saver.
I agree with Steve-p about ABS. Comments on the stability, the aerodynamics of individual cars will be similar for the same type of car (ie. Tuscan). What will be different and can make an enormous difference is the suspension geometry set-up. If this is not spot-on then the car will appear to be unstable.
About ABS I disagree. I am security-techno-gadget-fan, but in case of ABS, after 25 year driving experience, I have to disagree. OK if all the cars mount the ABS, they improve security for non experienced/distracted/numptie drivers, but for a passionate driver the ABS becomes like iron ball on your leg. Did you ever tryed to brake with ABS on the fresh snow ? In that case the ABS is absolutely NO NO. Once I found myself in the middle of the crossing doing 20 Mph before ! The car simply wouldn't stop. This is only one of ABS faults. Conclusion: give me an ABS off switch like optional.
quote:
quote:
People who bemoan the lack of ABS in cars like the Tuscan (or Lotus Elise) simply don't have faith in their driving ability.
Sorry, but I think you are way off. I would go as far as to say that ABS should become mandatory for all new vehicles. No amount of driver skill can compensate for locked wheels on a greasy surface. Cadence braking is not even close. You obviously haven't avoided a serious accident by the narrowest of margins, when someone else did something stupid right in front of you on a wet bend. I have, and it convinced me that ABS is a life saver.
In most cars sold today, I'd agree. However, there are exceptions and mandating ABS on all new cars would be a mistake because all cars are not the same.
Just like a car's bhp doesn't tell the whole tale when it comes to performance, whether or not a car has ABS doesn't tell the whole story when it comes to braking.
I've stopped HARD on wet road in a Tuscan and had no trouble whatever with it. In fact, even though this is a purely subjective assessment, I feel more comfortable stopping quickly in a Tuscan than I do in my Jaguar even with the cat's ABS.
ABS is a tool, nothing else. It helps remedy situations where the car's braking ability is compromised by weight, tire size/tread, balance or the nature of its power braking system. It is *not* a "magic bullet" and it is certainly not in the same category as seat-belts, safety-glass or other items whose installation is properly mandatory on all cars.
The real test of a car's braking is its ability to go from x MPH to a full stop in an acceptably distance. The car either passes or fails. Whether or not it has ABS installed is irrelevant.
Take air-bags for example. Despite all the ink spilled about how they should be mandatory, I have yet to hear anyone explain what they do that wearing seat belts properly won't do. Basically, they're a passive backup system to protect people too stupid to buckle up. In fact, depending on whose studies you believe, it could be argued that air-bags have killed and injured more people than they've protected.
Without a doubt they owe their popularity and widespread use to faulty logic and corrupt/ignorant politicians.
Oh, and by the way, I've not only avoided accident by narrow margins but I've also failed to avoid a few as well. I can also say that there is no qestion in my mind that any of the three accidents I've been in (none serious thankfully) could have been avoided if the cars I'd been driving at the time had been equipped with ABS.
quote:Sounds like a few of primary safety measures would be in order - like watching where you are going.
Oh, and by the way, I've not only avoided accident by narrow margins but I've also failed to avoid a few as well. I can also say that there is no qestion in my mind that any of the three accidents I've been in (none serious thankfully) could have been avoided if the cars I'd been driving at the time had been equipped with ABS.
The V8S monster brakes are very progressive and predictable and I'm used to threshold braking in all sorts of weather, even so I'd have ABS if I could. Just removes the need for me to get it right that one time I'm surprised.
On the track I'd definitely want it switched off though. Sometimes, locking the wheels is the right answer and if I had ABS I'd have written the car off at least once by now.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
On the track I'd definitely want it switched off though. Sometimes, locking the wheels is the right answer and if I had ABS I'd have written the car off at least once by now.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
quote:
On the track I'd definitely want it switched off though. Sometimes, locking the wheels is the right answer and if I had ABS I'd have written the car off at least once by now.
How's that then? In what circumstances does it help to lock the wheels when on the track?
ABS was banned from most motorsport because it allowed braking at the last possible moment and removed the driver skill. It virtually wiped out the possibility of overtaking under braking as everyone took the same distance to stop.
I respect your wealth of experience with Sprints, but am confused as to how skidding could help improve your speed or get out of trouble.
Intrigued!
quote:
quote:
On the track I'd definitely want it switched off though. Sometimes, locking the wheels is the right answer and if I had ABS I'd have written the car off at least once by now.
How's that then? In what circumstances does it help to lock the wheels when on the track?
ABS was banned from most motorsport because it allowed braking at the last possible moment and removed the driver skill. It virtually wiped out the possibility of overtaking under braking as everyone took the same distance to stop.
I respect your wealth of experience with Sprints, but am confused as to how skidding could help improve your speed or get out of trouble.
Intrigued!
Long story short (because this has been discussed before) ABS means the car goes where it is pointing. If you have lost control of the car and are having a tank slapper or even spinning, you don't want the car to go where it's pointing (i.e. sideways) you want it to keep going straight down the road. Grip wasted accelerating the car sideways isn't just wasted, it's harmfull because it's pushing you towards the scenery.
Similarly, while the wheels are rotating the spin can accelerate. If all four wheels are locked, the rate of spin will inevitably decrease.
So, if you lose control, locking all four wheels gives you the best chances of avoiding the scenery and ensures you've scrubbed off as much speed as possible if you do hit it. With ABS you have no option but to ride it out and hope for the best.
With powerful rear wheel drive cars, it is relatively easy to lose the back end. ABS of course does nothing to prevent this, but does rule out one of your best responses to it.
Cheers,
Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)
Thanks for the explanation Peter.
I'm still not totally convinced how locking the wheels would help in these situations, but I bow to your greater experience.
Can't say I've had too many spins in my driving history and I was thinking more about the advantages of ABS when you're doing it right. e.g. you can brake later and start the turn in whilst still on the brakes.
Having said that, if I was involved in Motorsport (wish I was!) I would prefer a non ABS field. Promotes greater driver skill and is more fun.
I'm still not totally convinced how locking the wheels would help in these situations, but I bow to your greater experience.
Can't say I've had too many spins in my driving history and I was thinking more about the advantages of ABS when you're doing it right. e.g. you can brake later and start the turn in whilst still on the brakes.
Having said that, if I was involved in Motorsport (wish I was!) I would prefer a non ABS field. Promotes greater driver skill and is more fun.
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