Problems on the horizon !
Discussion
Just wanted a bit of feedback from people about a problem I am having at the moment.
My car went into a dealer to get some bits an pieces sorted and was also running a bit rough. I was told it was probably tappets. Fair enough I though just get them adjusted.
Low and Behold when the cover came off signs of the followers wearing..... now the car is about 3 1/2 years old done 24,000 miles.
I have a comprehensive warranty holdings warranty... I know they are ion liquidation but I heard they are still payind out on some policies.
What I want to know is your experiences of anbody who has had a similar problem and got it sorted with a similar aged/mileage car....
My car went into a dealer to get some bits an pieces sorted and was also running a bit rough. I was told it was probably tappets. Fair enough I though just get them adjusted.
Low and Behold when the cover came off signs of the followers wearing..... now the car is about 3 1/2 years old done 24,000 miles.
I have a comprehensive warranty holdings warranty... I know they are ion liquidation but I heard they are still payind out on some policies.
What I want to know is your experiences of anbody who has had a similar problem and got it sorted with a similar aged/mileage car....
ANDYTAN said:
Just wanted a bit of feedback from people about a problem I am having at the moment.
My car went into a dealer to get some bits an pieces sorted and was also running a bit rough. I was told it was probably tappets. Fair enough I though just get them adjusted.
Low and Behold when the cover came off signs of the followers wearing..... now the car is about 3 1/2 years old done 24,000 miles.
I have a comprehensive warranty holdings warranty... I know they are ion liquidation but I heard they are still payind out on some policies.
What I want to know is your experiences of anbody who has had a similar problem and got it sorted with a similar aged/mileage car....
If it's not had an engine rebuild before, the followers will almost certainly need doing now. WH will say it's wear and tear (especially if you've managed 24k miles in it). Would be beyond surprised if you saw a penny out of them.
If it's had a rebuild already, you might be able to get the factory/TVR Power to do it for free. If it was >1 or 2 years ago, I wouldn't fancy your chances of that either.
If it hasn't had a rebuild before, and it's got a full dealer service-history, etc. then I'd guess you'll get a discounted rebuild = ~£2k. Looking at your profile, you've had it over a year, so there's no real come back with the dealer. Your only other option will be to sue TVR. Which'll take an age, but there'd be plenty of evidence to show that the parts aren't fit for purpose. Compared to most, 24k miles is doing pretty well, though.
And if you've not got a dealer service history, then I'm not sure - wouldn't be surprised if you got quoted a lot more.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
R666 TUS said:
I am in exactly the same boat. Mine has gone to
the factory today to be stripped down before
they will give me a price to fix.Should be
about three weeks before I know how much.
Will post on the forum when I find out.
Col, do you/they not know what's wrong with it? If you ask them nicely, you might be able to get a fixed-price-for-everything offer.
I had a barny with Warranty Holdings when they tried to claim the rear diff on my cerb was fair wear and tear. They even charged me for the engineering visit to inspect the car, prior to a negative decision being made.
In the end I wrote to the chairman of NIG Scandia with a letter from BTF giving the service life of the diff as 11 years or 120,000 miles. A cheque for £1900 arrived shortly afterwards.
I would write to the factory and ask them to confirm the expected service life of a speed 6 engine. I somehow doubt that they would admit to it being shagged at 20k miles....
Bennno
bennno said:
I had a barny with Warranty Holdings when they tried to claim the rear diff on my cerb was fair wear and tear. They even charged me for the engineering visit to inspect the car, prior to a negative decision being made.
In the end I wrote to the chairman of NIG Scandia with a letter from BTF giving the service life of the diff as 11 years or 120,000 miles. A cheque for £1900 arrived shortly afterwards.
I would write to the factory and ask them to confirm the expected service life of a speed 6 engine. I somehow doubt that they would admit to it being shagged at 20k miles....
Bennno
Personally, I totally agree with that, and I'd say the same myself. Having now had to fight the warranty companies a couple of times, what they'll say is "what actually happened". Unless something snapped/cracked/shattered/exploded/etc. (i.e. some immediate, violent problem) they don't seem at all interested. As far as I'm aware the finger followers really do just "wear out" (I'm ready to be corrected on this, though!) As far as I'm concerned, anything under 100k for a normal car or 50k for a supercar isn't just "wear", it's premature failure. But even if you convince them of that (good luck!), many policies have clauses excluding them from paying out in the case of inherent defects. And this really is just that, and I'm sure WH have had innumerable people trying to put chocolate finger related problems through on policies, so they'll know.
All IMHO, of course... and I really do hope everyone gets their rebuild for free. Myself especially!
Just a thought - meant to be helpfull.
With the Typhoon engine now rated at 580 bhp, presumably for more than 20k miles,is it possible to argue that any failure of a standard engine component through wear or breakage is just that-a failure and therefore subject to warranty. If the basic engine structure and components are good for a higher degree of stress than the'standard' engine then premature wear or failure of components below that stress can't be acceptable. I am well aware that there have been changes to the spec of the engine components for the Typhoon-but this in itself is interesting.If the changes are pro rata-i.e suficient to keep the engine within reasonable opperating limits then it would be possible to look at the changes made and relate them to the standard components.What you would expect to see is strengthening relative to the increase in stress,not more than this. If the increase in spec is excessively ahead of a proportionate increase( factoring in the non-linear increase in force due to acceleration)then it would suggest that the original spec is not sufficient to meet the demands.
IMHO it would be a suprise-to hold together for even a short length of time the engine has to be competently engineered.If they were really so fragile the engines would not make a year,so all we are left with failure of out of spec components irrespective of wear or breakage.A fail is a fail- unless the spec was wrong to start with in which case there should be no argument.
With the Typhoon engine now rated at 580 bhp, presumably for more than 20k miles,is it possible to argue that any failure of a standard engine component through wear or breakage is just that-a failure and therefore subject to warranty. If the basic engine structure and components are good for a higher degree of stress than the'standard' engine then premature wear or failure of components below that stress can't be acceptable. I am well aware that there have been changes to the spec of the engine components for the Typhoon-but this in itself is interesting.If the changes are pro rata-i.e suficient to keep the engine within reasonable opperating limits then it would be possible to look at the changes made and relate them to the standard components.What you would expect to see is strengthening relative to the increase in stress,not more than this. If the increase in spec is excessively ahead of a proportionate increase( factoring in the non-linear increase in force due to acceleration)then it would suggest that the original spec is not sufficient to meet the demands.
IMHO it would be a suprise-to hold together for even a short length of time the engine has to be competently engineered.If they were really so fragile the engines would not make a year,so all we are left with failure of out of spec components irrespective of wear or breakage.A fail is a fail- unless the spec was wrong to start with in which case there should be no argument.
sideways mostly said:
...
As jealous as I am, I pity the first few Typhon owners... they're brave, brave people to be guinea pigs for the next gen of S6 power output. I wonder how many S6 engines with superchargers TVR has put together and tested? And I mean tested to 100k+ miles, with more than 2000 RPM whilst cold, pushing it up to redline, taking real-world stresses into account, etc.
ANDYTAN said:
Just wanted a bit of feedback from people about a problem I am having at the moment.
My car went into a dealer to get some bits an pieces sorted and was also running a bit rough. I was told it was probably tappets. Fair enough I though just get them adjusted.
Low and Behold when the cover came off signs of the followers wearing..... now the car is about 3 1/2 years old done 24,000 miles.
I have a comprehensive warranty holdings warranty... I know they are ion liquidation but I heard they are still payind out on some policies.
What I want to know is your experiences of anbody who has had a similar problem and got it sorted with a similar aged/mileage car....
THere is a huge number (the majority) of Speed Six owners who have had to have their engines rebuilt. I dont blame the warranty companies for not paying up, it's TVR who should be sorting and paying to correct the problem. They should do a rebuild for free for you. As a million other people have said, 'the engine is not fit for use'. Dont be afraid to take some form of legal action. If you can get another 4 or 5 people together the costs (which you will get fully refunded once you win) will be less than a rebuild. DOnt let them off the hook! Try watchdog as well once you have done all you research. Even try people who have shelled out for rebuilds in the past. They may want to recoup some of their cash. I'd join you but mine hasnt blown up yet!
Good luck.
jsg my car has gone back to TVR through
H.L. Gorner in Wigan.When they first rang TVR
they said the car could have the engine "REFRESHED"
for £2000 replacing what ever was needed, however
when they found out it was a 2000 model they changed
it to "let us srip it first and then we'll let you
know how much" So finger's crossed they dont come
back with a silly number.Some leverage may be available
due to the previous owner having had the engine
rebuilt by TVR Power about 6000 miles ago.
Oh well I enjoy driving to work in my Fiesta
Col
H.L. Gorner in Wigan.When they first rang TVR
they said the car could have the engine "REFRESHED"
for £2000 replacing what ever was needed, however
when they found out it was a 2000 model they changed
it to "let us srip it first and then we'll let you
know how much" So finger's crossed they dont come
back with a silly number.Some leverage may be available
due to the previous owner having had the engine
rebuilt by TVR Power about 6000 miles ago.
Oh well I enjoy driving to work in my Fiesta
Col
It would be great to put some numbers on the S6 failures and also to the reasons. My recent meeting with TVR suggests that they hold their hands up to the initial finger follower problems and try to act 'sympathetically'. I expect that no one has the statistics except for TVR themselves and they still show unshakable confidence in the basic engine design.
I'd hate this to happen to me, but if it did - I'd be on the phone to the factory to talk it through reasonably and see what result you get. To my knowledge, most rebuilds (excepting the first) have cost customers around £1500 + VAT for labour, and the factory supplies parts FOC.
I still agree though that eyebrows have to be raised when premature wear affects finger followers again. Is it a question that poorly hardened followers have been used in rebuilds - or do they have a finite life in the 10s rather thans 100s of thousands miles?
I echo the thoughts above that IIRC manufacturers have some form of responsibility lasting upto 6 years after a car was made. If you can provide evidence through other owners that this is not an isolated event, you could pursue a free rebuild through the small claims court procedure (upto limit of £5000 now I believe). The downside is the length of time this would take and the fact that the car will probably have devalued more in the meantime.
For anyone out there getting work done, I'd be very interested to learn what the problem is diagnosed as, whether the engine has had a previous rebuild, how the repeair was pursued, costs and final outcome.
I'd hate this to happen to me, but if it did - I'd be on the phone to the factory to talk it through reasonably and see what result you get. To my knowledge, most rebuilds (excepting the first) have cost customers around £1500 + VAT for labour, and the factory supplies parts FOC.
I still agree though that eyebrows have to be raised when premature wear affects finger followers again. Is it a question that poorly hardened followers have been used in rebuilds - or do they have a finite life in the 10s rather thans 100s of thousands miles?
I echo the thoughts above that IIRC manufacturers have some form of responsibility lasting upto 6 years after a car was made. If you can provide evidence through other owners that this is not an isolated event, you could pursue a free rebuild through the small claims court procedure (upto limit of £5000 now I believe). The downside is the length of time this would take and the fact that the car will probably have devalued more in the meantime.
For anyone out there getting work done, I'd be very interested to learn what the problem is diagnosed as, whether the engine has had a previous rebuild, how the repeair was pursued, costs and final outcome.
Bryan I will gladly let you know as soon as
they let me know.I wont just accept a quote
for the rebuild without first finding out what
needs replacing and what they feel led to the failure.
As well as the car needing a rebuild due to excess
oil use the finger follower's have also failed
on mine too.This is roughly 5000 miles since the
previuos owner had them done.You think you are doing
good by buying a car that has already had a rebuild
but not allways the case.Will be interesting to see
how the spd 6 copes in the Typhon with the increased
power output.Oh will the sun is shining I am going
out in the Fiesta to chase Porsches
Col.
>> Edited by R666 TUS on Sunday 6th June 18:01
they let me know.I wont just accept a quote
for the rebuild without first finding out what
needs replacing and what they feel led to the failure.
As well as the car needing a rebuild due to excess
oil use the finger follower's have also failed
on mine too.This is roughly 5000 miles since the
previuos owner had them done.You think you are doing
good by buying a car that has already had a rebuild
but not allways the case.Will be interesting to see
how the spd 6 copes in the Typhon with the increased
power output.Oh will the sun is shining I am going
out in the Fiesta to chase Porsches
Col.
>> Edited by R666 TUS on Sunday 6th June 18:01
sideways mostly said:
jamster-how do you know the majority of speed six owners have had rebuilds-if this is documented then its going to be easy to establish TVR own the problem.If its not then should you make an assertion like that?
By speaking with all the people in the know. Main dealers, TVR mechanics, TVR salesman, Indy's etc.
Just try and find an S6 that has done more than 20K miles without a rebuild. They dont exist unfortunately. Remember also that every speed six's finger followers WILL fail that has been produced between 99 and late 2001, and thats straight from the horses mouth.
A sad state of affairs unfortunately
I phoned up 6 dealers around a month ago seeing if they were interested in my TVR Speed Six. THey all said 'NO' straight away, we dont deal in speed sixes sir, we've not had much luck with that model. Hmmmm! Nice line. I got chatting to them and once in full flight they seem quite happy to tell you about all the engine problems and hey presto every when you throw in the finger followers as bate they all blirt it out. Yeh we know they will all fail but if they've been rebuilt it should be OK'.
A simple but effective test. oNe
My car is on 24K and may last a while longer but I have been told by my local dealer that it will need rebuilding. But nonetheless I think the engines should last till about 50K before rebuilds as mentioned already.
I guess the general concensus is to have a word with the factory and see how to progress things from there.
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
I guess the general concensus is to have a word with the factory and see how to progress things from there.
Thanks everyone for the feedback.
I notice in the July copy of EVO that TVR
say the Typhon will now have 580bhp from the
supercharged speed six and that it was well
within the engines tolerences. We will find
out in due course if this is true.
Also in the same issue a T350c's engine threw it's hand in
while being tested for max speed
Col
say the Typhon will now have 580bhp from the
supercharged speed six and that it was well
within the engines tolerences. We will find
out in due course if this is true.
Also in the same issue a T350c's engine threw it's hand in
while being tested for max speed
Col
And this is the problem with TVR, no information!
My 2002 'S' needed a rebuild at 17000 miles, fish fingers. Credit where its due, TVR Power do these rebuilds for 2K, which is very cheap.
BUT! TVR have known for at least three years that the finger followers are crap. I have discussed this with a friend who is responsible for engine quality at a major manufacturer, he is completely dumbplexed.
It is not rocket science to treat these components to produce low wearing surfaces with sufficient hardness. For Gods sake we have been doing it for more that 60 years. look at the Merlin engine. If the speed six requires more than normal capability then there are perfectly good companies, in the UK, who can apply amorphous carbon coatings for such components at a cost of a hundred quid or so in bulk. Wish I had asked TVR power to get the followers treated, but then I would have had to wait a few weeks longer to get the car back!
My 2002 'S' needed a rebuild at 17000 miles, fish fingers. Credit where its due, TVR Power do these rebuilds for 2K, which is very cheap.
BUT! TVR have known for at least three years that the finger followers are crap. I have discussed this with a friend who is responsible for engine quality at a major manufacturer, he is completely dumbplexed.
It is not rocket science to treat these components to produce low wearing surfaces with sufficient hardness. For Gods sake we have been doing it for more that 60 years. look at the Merlin engine. If the speed six requires more than normal capability then there are perfectly good companies, in the UK, who can apply amorphous carbon coatings for such components at a cost of a hundred quid or so in bulk. Wish I had asked TVR power to get the followers treated, but then I would have had to wait a few weeks longer to get the car back!
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