944 S2 used price & timing belt change
Discussion
Hi all, im after some good advice, im looking for a good S2, and would like to know if this price sounds fair..? One im interested in is a 91 black S2 with 100k-ish miles, full leather, all in very good condition. Its priced at 6k, though i think thats a bit negotiable. I feel 5k would be more realistic, however there is something that concerns me, and i would like advice as to whether its justified. The timing belt was replaced 4 years and 4k miles ago.. so although it hasnt done many miles, should i still account for having it replaced when im pricing the vehicle?? And if so then would 5k be too much to pay ?? All comments welcomed THANKS !
I think it sounds a bit expensive unless it's really mint, I'm thinking about advertising mine next week (on pistonheads) for £5000, it's also a 91 car, just passed 120,000 miles, titanium silver, full grey leather, 10 speaker symphony stereo, timing belts and idler wheels just replaced, resprayed to remove stone chips and scuffs (and the fact that the bottoms of the front wings have been properly repaired which can rust under the rubber sill trims), recently refurbished wheels and I've done loads of small jobs to get the car just right, it's immaculate inside and out and everything works!, on top of that it uses almost no oil and has a full (mostly porsche and specialist) history, huge file and is totally unmollested.
If the advert for the one you're going to look at does'nt read like that you may end up spending money on it (especially as it sounds like the belts and rollers could do with being changed)
Try to ge the very best car you can or you will spend money on it, ideally take somebody with you who really knows 944's or porsches.
The amount you have to spend on a new car will depend on the condition and what has already been done not the milage, prices of 944's have dropped recently, though the later cars are still a bit more expensive, nearly all the later ones had leather.
Good luck as they are great cars.
Andy.
If the advert for the one you're going to look at does'nt read like that you may end up spending money on it (especially as it sounds like the belts and rollers could do with being changed)
Try to ge the very best car you can or you will spend money on it, ideally take somebody with you who really knows 944's or porsches.
The amount you have to spend on a new car will depend on the condition and what has already been done not the milage, prices of 944's have dropped recently, though the later cars are still a bit more expensive, nearly all the later ones had leather.
Good luck as they are great cars.
Andy.
Edited by SilverS2 on Monday 30th April 17:15
Hey , thanks for your comments.. i think for peace of mind id have to replace the belts on that car, and i doubt the seller will come down enough in price for it to make it a good buy. As the days go by some new cars are appearing on this site.. so i think il wait for the right car, as u say, best to buy the best car i can.
There is a huge variation in condition of 944S2`s and as such I think it`s hard to value a car to within £1k, especially one unseen. Circa £5k sounds right but it could easily vary either way.
The cambelt service is a wise thing to get done, I`d almost advise it regardless of when it was last done if you are buying a new car, that way you know you are starting with a clean sheet of paper. The belt it`s self is unlikely to fail but the idler rollers may have degraded & if they fail it`s the same as a cambelt snapping. It isn`t massively expensive (certainly not a-la Ferrari) At a guess £400 or so.
Tyres will vary depending on make but circa £80-120 as a guess. Roughly £100 a corner.
At the end of the day you`ve seen the car & you know what it`s worth to you.
Hope that helps
Henry
The cambelt service is a wise thing to get done, I`d almost advise it regardless of when it was last done if you are buying a new car, that way you know you are starting with a clean sheet of paper. The belt it`s self is unlikely to fail but the idler rollers may have degraded & if they fail it`s the same as a cambelt snapping. It isn`t massively expensive (certainly not a-la Ferrari) At a guess £400 or so.
Tyres will vary depending on make but circa £80-120 as a guess. Roughly £100 a corner.
At the end of the day you`ve seen the car & you know what it`s worth to you.
Hope that helps
Henry
Umm, general consensus is that cam belt is 40K tops or 4 years whichever comes first. Expect to do a water pump every other cambelt & idlers & seals possibly depending on when they were last done. Bear in mind that their is a chain on the S2 that connects the cams, if left can be trashed cams so £700-800! The tensioner is around £60.
Engine mounts are £180 a pair & have a limited life & if left will fry the universal joint on the steering column which is £60 + fitting.
A clutch is £600ish.
All of these will significantly affect the price of a car depending on where you are in the cycle.
Can I suggest you go to a TiPEC meet in your area & chat to owners, one of these maybe willing to have a nose at your prospective purchase & view it without the rose tinted glasses.
try www.porsche-1.net
&
www.tipec.net
Engine mounts are £180 a pair & have a limited life & if left will fry the universal joint on the steering column which is £60 + fitting.
A clutch is £600ish.
All of these will significantly affect the price of a car depending on where you are in the cycle.
Can I suggest you go to a TiPEC meet in your area & chat to owners, one of these maybe willing to have a nose at your prospective purchase & view it without the rose tinted glasses.
try www.porsche-1.net
&
www.tipec.net
Edited by tr7v8 on Tuesday 1st May 09:13
Hi. I was just about to post about the same topic. I am in the market for a 944 S2 also. I have seen one at a good price. However, it needs a cambelt service. Does anyone know how much this would cost? Iam looking for a definitive price for everything included. What is involved with the change (belt, tensioners etc..)
Sorry to be a party pooper but this kind of advice still worries me after all these years of trying to warn people what to expect. All these cars are just now at an age and mileage whereby corrosion, age, wear and tear, metal fatigue etc are combining to diminish their reliablility until some essential parts are replaced.
For example, we recently received a 1990 S2 from someone who apparently read our whole buyers guide - a nice car, clean, full history, nice condition - but no record of major replacements after 108K.
It needed new valve springs (one broken), head gasket (perished away), water pump (leaking), belts, rollers, cams and chain (teeth worn to points and cracking and well under size), wheel alignment out (not repaired), corroded fuel pipes (not repaired), heater repair etc.
None of this made it a bad car to buy (as it was a beauty) but all were things that had to be done or worse damage could follow and the car should now be bullet proof - but since then the radiator has burst through corrosion at the plastic end casing to core joint (probably because the cooling system is under more pressure now) and the customer was unhappy with us because of this later failure - that we simply could not have predicted until it occurred. There are lots of other things we could have advised might still go wrong - like a winscreen wiper motor, an alternator, etc and if they were all replaced before they went wrong it would be totally impractical and not viable - you can only reasonably change some things when they fail. Furthermore some are corroding the sills as well.
Little of this (if any apart from sills and fuel pipes) could have been found during a pre-purchase inspection and although the car should be good for many thousands of more miles now - this owner kind of paid for the gradual deterioration of the car over 17 years of someone elses use and probably fixed the things that will last at least another 10 years (in the main) for the next few owners and so after it all he was a few grand out of pocket (despite all the discounts we built in for commonality of work etc).
So whatever you do, please allow for and expect to spend a few grand on even what seems a great car and expect to only get back the cost if you keep it for a few years. This often makes not spending too much on the original purchase a more sensible option as price and visual quality will not guarantee any more than that and what lurks inside will still need to be discovered and dealt with.
Baz
For example, we recently received a 1990 S2 from someone who apparently read our whole buyers guide - a nice car, clean, full history, nice condition - but no record of major replacements after 108K.
It needed new valve springs (one broken), head gasket (perished away), water pump (leaking), belts, rollers, cams and chain (teeth worn to points and cracking and well under size), wheel alignment out (not repaired), corroded fuel pipes (not repaired), heater repair etc.
None of this made it a bad car to buy (as it was a beauty) but all were things that had to be done or worse damage could follow and the car should now be bullet proof - but since then the radiator has burst through corrosion at the plastic end casing to core joint (probably because the cooling system is under more pressure now) and the customer was unhappy with us because of this later failure - that we simply could not have predicted until it occurred. There are lots of other things we could have advised might still go wrong - like a winscreen wiper motor, an alternator, etc and if they were all replaced before they went wrong it would be totally impractical and not viable - you can only reasonably change some things when they fail. Furthermore some are corroding the sills as well.
Little of this (if any apart from sills and fuel pipes) could have been found during a pre-purchase inspection and although the car should be good for many thousands of more miles now - this owner kind of paid for the gradual deterioration of the car over 17 years of someone elses use and probably fixed the things that will last at least another 10 years (in the main) for the next few owners and so after it all he was a few grand out of pocket (despite all the discounts we built in for commonality of work etc).
So whatever you do, please allow for and expect to spend a few grand on even what seems a great car and expect to only get back the cost if you keep it for a few years. This often makes not spending too much on the original purchase a more sensible option as price and visual quality will not guarantee any more than that and what lurks inside will still need to be discovered and dealt with.
Baz
Have been lurking here for a while....
What's the consensus on buying a lower mileage/pampered car and then using it as a daily driver - not huge mileage, but 10 miles each way to work each day.
My question is will this cause faults to appear to to the continued heat cycling that a regularly used car gets?
....Or if it is really condition over mileage, if I find a car in superb condition which happens to have a low mileage is that a good buy too?
What's the consensus on buying a lower mileage/pampered car and then using it as a daily driver - not huge mileage, but 10 miles each way to work each day.
My question is will this cause faults to appear to to the continued heat cycling that a regularly used car gets?
....Or if it is really condition over mileage, if I find a car in superb condition which happens to have a low mileage is that a good buy too?
It's a great car for a daily driver but we have found that some problems occur with a little used car more frequently than a daily used higher mileage car. For example water pumps do not last as long and discs tend to corrode. Furthermore while they are reliable there are predictable ages or mileages at which some expensive jobs need doing.
These tend to occur at multiples of 45/50K (belts, rollers, discs, etc - a timing chain if you can find one with such low mileage) then at 90 to 100K if it didn't get a chain @ 45/50K a chain and probably one or 2 cams, belts, next set of discs etc.
At 130/140K possible start of valve spring failure, @ 15 years old start of head gaskets going, gearbox pinion bearings, power steering rack, etc.
It can be a better buy to find a car that has recently had this work done, or one that is priced a couple of grand less but iminently needs it and get it done yourself.
A low mileage example that hasn't had the work done will still need it and so if you pay a lot for the car you will have to pay again for the additional work.
Most of the work mentioned will need doing (or has been done) regardless of how the car was driven or looked after by previous owners and therefore applies to most examples.
Paintwork usually needs tidying up by now (or has been done) and can be expensive and some are corroding the sills (a poor batch at manufacture at some stage I suspect).
Overall though brilliant cars - good performance - capable of over 200K with routine maintenance and still performing well all their life - inexpensive and unlikely to depreciate any more if looked after - instead of deprectation though you incurr some running costs.
Baz
These tend to occur at multiples of 45/50K (belts, rollers, discs, etc - a timing chain if you can find one with such low mileage) then at 90 to 100K if it didn't get a chain @ 45/50K a chain and probably one or 2 cams, belts, next set of discs etc.
At 130/140K possible start of valve spring failure, @ 15 years old start of head gaskets going, gearbox pinion bearings, power steering rack, etc.
It can be a better buy to find a car that has recently had this work done, or one that is priced a couple of grand less but iminently needs it and get it done yourself.
A low mileage example that hasn't had the work done will still need it and so if you pay a lot for the car you will have to pay again for the additional work.
Most of the work mentioned will need doing (or has been done) regardless of how the car was driven or looked after by previous owners and therefore applies to most examples.
Paintwork usually needs tidying up by now (or has been done) and can be expensive and some are corroding the sills (a poor batch at manufacture at some stage I suspect).
Overall though brilliant cars - good performance - capable of over 200K with routine maintenance and still performing well all their life - inexpensive and unlikely to depreciate any more if looked after - instead of deprectation though you incurr some running costs.
Baz
Following on from the good advice here... is the 968 similar with respect to servicing schedules?
Or does it require more/less servicing than a 944S2 in certain areas.
Can anyone recommend a good Porsche specialist around SW London end of Surrey. Camtune (in Godalming) are a tad distant, if not impossible to get to.
Informative as ever Baz - thanks
Sorry to hi-jack here....
The car I'm going to see has a very low mileage on it (under 50k) and whilst it's used regularly it sounds like it's not had the big service with belts etc. Is it necessary (or simply wise?) to change the cam chain as well as the belts at this mileage?
I will be seeing it shortly and will be taking a very close look at all the discs etc just to make sure!
GT-One are in Chertsey and much easier to get to than Camtune - haven't used them yet, but seem to have a good reputation.
Sorry to hi-jack here....
The car I'm going to see has a very low mileage on it (under 50k) and whilst it's used regularly it sounds like it's not had the big service with belts etc. Is it necessary (or simply wise?) to change the cam chain as well as the belts at this mileage?
I will be seeing it shortly and will be taking a very close look at all the discs etc just to make sure!
GT-One are in Chertsey and much easier to get to than Camtune - haven't used them yet, but seem to have a good reputation.
Edited by Ranger 6 on Wednesday 2nd May 13:31
fido said:
Following on from the good advice here... is the 968 similar with respect to servicing schedules?
Or does it require more/less servicing than a 944S2 in certain areas.
Can anyone recommend a good Porsche specialist around SW London end of Surrey. Camtune (in Godalming) are a tad distant, if not impossible to get to.
My understanding is that the 968 has more problems with wear on the cam teeth and chain due to the variocam mechanism.
What Barry said about all the things that need doing is nail on the head stuff. I have spent a small fortune in maintenence on my S2 over the past 6 years (about 11K for 70K miles some very big jobs like rear suspension, clutch replace, fuel and brake lines) and to me it must be mechanically one of the best out there. However it doesn't look like a minter and so there is no way I would sell it in the next couple of years. Since many 944 owners I know of are in the same boat I really wonder about the quality of secondhand 944's available.
On the point about rust, I got some on mine over the only winter the car has been garaged in the last 6 years! The sills and rear quarters on these cars need airation to keep them dry the insides are not painted so they rust from the inside out. Dirt also gets trapped between the stupid side skirts on the S2/turbo and eats into the sills along the bottom edge.
My personal take on the 944 is that it makes huge sense if you can do all the fiddly little things and basic 6K servicing yourself. This saves a huge amount of money because on cars of this age it is the time that often costs a fortune rather then the parts.
The camshaft teeth are more fragile on the 968 - not only because of the variocam mechanism but also because there are less teeth. Standard good workshop practice for minimum numbers of sprocket teeth start at about 6 to 8 more than they have, so they are always going to be a weak spot.
If a car has only covered 50K then if the chain is changed now - and then every 45K (or when the belts are done) it may then survive with the original camshafts until over 200K (we have proven this over the years). It's a shame it was not included as a neccessity originally when the belts were replaced
Unfortunately the more the chain stretches the quicker it wears the teeth so eventually it can be too late to save the camshafts (usually after 75K or so) - and measuring the tooth wear tells us what to recommend.
This does not stop them being great cars - it just means that instead of depreciation you have running costs - but many cars have both for far less performance and enjoyment.
Baz
If a car has only covered 50K then if the chain is changed now - and then every 45K (or when the belts are done) it may then survive with the original camshafts until over 200K (we have proven this over the years). It's a shame it was not included as a neccessity originally when the belts were replaced
Unfortunately the more the chain stretches the quicker it wears the teeth so eventually it can be too late to save the camshafts (usually after 75K or so) - and measuring the tooth wear tells us what to recommend.
This does not stop them being great cars - it just means that instead of depreciation you have running costs - but many cars have both for far less performance and enjoyment.
Baz
We are all thinking along the same lines here. Try and buy the best example you can, the more history of major work recently undertaken may save you some cash over the ownership cycle. These cars will need TLC at this age if they are to keep running/looking good, and that means spending. If you can do the basic maintenance it makes the ownership cost more viable and just pay for the big jobs. I shall be doing the belts , tensioners, cam chain and water pump on mine soon. For me its just parts as I do the work myself. But I am paying for some paint work as well. Still how many 15 to 20 year old cars do you see driving around today that still look and drive great !!
Well we do remove the cover and it is part of our Gold 944 service schedule to take the cover off and inspect the cam sprockets and chains etc and check for broken valve springs.
If the cams need to come out this is a little extra to remove, replace and re-time - but often we can see teeth missing, worn tensioner pads, stretched chain etc. If it looks dodgy we recommend removal and measure all parts etc.
Baz
If the cams need to come out this is a little extra to remove, replace and re-time - but often we can see teeth missing, worn tensioner pads, stretched chain etc. If it looks dodgy we recommend removal and measure all parts etc.
Baz
It may be my fuel lines a routed slightly differently to standard as it had new ones fitted a year ago, however I can get the rocker cover off mine without removing the fuel lines, it is pretty tight but not too much of a problem and only took me 5 minutes to have the peace of mind that the cam sprockets weren't hooked, and the tensioner pads were OK.
I'd say definitely worth taking the time to have a look at for any 944S2 owner, the consequences of the chain jumping a tooth for whatever reason doesn't bear thinking about.
Andy
I'd say definitely worth taking the time to have a look at for any 944S2 owner, the consequences of the chain jumping a tooth for whatever reason doesn't bear thinking about.
Andy
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