Three year cost
Discussion
Looking at mid-high-60k turbo S cars I can't help wondering depreciation wise if it wouldn't make sense to pony up the extra 40k and get a 997 turbo.
Apart from availability (though used ones abound at list) what does the PH massif reckon to three year cost of ownership of either cars?
Those b'stards at Cambridge parked one up deliberately just near where they knew I'd be parking Saturday just to tempt me.
SM
Apart from availability (though used ones abound at list) what does the PH massif reckon to three year cost of ownership of either cars?
Those b'stards at Cambridge parked one up deliberately just near where they knew I'd be parking Saturday just to tempt me.
SM
supermono said:
Looking at mid-high-60k turbo S cars I can't help wondering depreciation wise if it wouldn't make sense to pony up the extra 40k and get a 997 turbo.
Apart from availability (though used ones abound at list) what does the PH massif reckon to three year cost of ownership of either cars?
Those b'stards at Cambridge parked one up deliberately just near where they knew I'd be parking Saturday just to tempt me.
SM
Why change?Get the tt chipped and youve got a quicker car than the turbo s and the 997tt and not a lot of depreciation in older 996tt's now.Apart from availability (though used ones abound at list) what does the PH massif reckon to three year cost of ownership of either cars?
Those b'stards at Cambridge parked one up deliberately just near where they knew I'd be parking Saturday just to tempt me.
SM
supermono said:
kayc said:
some more sensible talk
Listen, we don't like your sort around here
SM
I hear you kayc, I do. Thing is I'm not that rich and I don't want to move outside the OPC warranty. I've heard your view of this before and I can't argue with it.
But in my case, I'd be gutted if I spent a couple of k on an upgrade and the thing blew up with no warranty and 25k to pay.
For me the only safe way forward is turbo s or 997.
But having said that, I'm finding the standard tt awesome every time I get behind the wheel, and it keeps getting better for me even after like 15 months of ownership so the sensible money would really be on keeping hold of it...
Maybe I just fancy a change...
SM
But in my case, I'd be gutted if I spent a couple of k on an upgrade and the thing blew up with no warranty and 25k to pay.
For me the only safe way forward is turbo s or 997.
But having said that, I'm finding the standard tt awesome every time I get behind the wheel, and it keeps getting better for me even after like 15 months of ownership so the sensible money would really be on keeping hold of it...
Maybe I just fancy a change...
SM
If your looking for a bit more go and have circa 60K to spend then I'd go for a Gt2, these should hold their money better than anything with a turbo badge. You may lose a little bit in everyday useabilty but because of the small amount made they should hold price wise for a while yet.
I'm with you on the after market boost increase Supermono, the engine on my perfectly serviced well pampered 02TT blew up at 28k, just after I had sold it to an OPC. In fairness I put it down to £3k's worth of warranty work they did on the engine (top end oil leak!) just prior to it letting go! BUT if it hadn't been warranted then OUCH!
Porsche did beef up parts of the car (gearbox & clutch!) to accommodate even the minor increase with the X-50 upgrade!
Having said this I did run my car with a Cargraphic sports exhaust/cats, which added 20-25 horses & an amazing sound (particularly outside!) my OPC were ok with this & still fully covered the warranty etc! This could be a way of adding a new dimension to your car without spending a fortune!
But I fear that you aren't going to listen to the mistake that I made when changing from C2 to C2 facelift! In changing for something very similar i honestly feel you won't feel much benefit for your cash! This is one reason why I went from the Turbo to an AMV8 & now to the 997GT3.
Have you considered the new GT3, a new Turbo will cost you about £60k & be "extra ..more of the same"....a new GT3 £40k, (saves you 20k) & gives you a whole new driving experience, the engine sound & involvement factor are on a much higher level!
Having said this the last suggestion of a GT2 would certainly pep you up, great value at the moment, BUT I couldn't live with the ride quality or all that extra grunt 2WD & no traction, but you may?????
Porsche did beef up parts of the car (gearbox & clutch!) to accommodate even the minor increase with the X-50 upgrade!
Having said this I did run my car with a Cargraphic sports exhaust/cats, which added 20-25 horses & an amazing sound (particularly outside!) my OPC were ok with this & still fully covered the warranty etc! This could be a way of adding a new dimension to your car without spending a fortune!
But I fear that you aren't going to listen to the mistake that I made when changing from C2 to C2 facelift! In changing for something very similar i honestly feel you won't feel much benefit for your cash! This is one reason why I went from the Turbo to an AMV8 & now to the 997GT3.
Have you considered the new GT3, a new Turbo will cost you about £60k & be "extra ..more of the same"....a new GT3 £40k, (saves you 20k) & gives you a whole new driving experience, the engine sound & involvement factor are on a much higher level!
Having said this the last suggestion of a GT2 would certainly pep you up, great value at the moment, BUT I couldn't live with the ride quality or all that extra grunt 2WD & no traction, but you may?????
supermono said:
Looking at mid-high-60k turbo S cars I can't help wondering depreciation wise if it wouldn't make sense to pony up the extra 40k and get a 997 turbo.
Apart from availability (though used ones abound at list) what does the PH massif reckon to three year cost of ownership of either cars?
Those b'stards at Cambridge parked one up deliberately just near where they knew I'd be parking Saturday just to tempt me.
SM
Apart from availability (though used ones abound at list) what does the PH massif reckon to three year cost of ownership of either cars?
Those b'stards at Cambridge parked one up deliberately just near where they knew I'd be parking Saturday just to tempt me.
SM
In response to your original question i think the 997 turbo will not fare any better than the 996 in depreciation terms. They are building more of them and although used cars are (just) making over list this bubble will burst.
I suspect that a three year old 997 turbo will be worth £60(ish)k
as one of the previous posters said - get yourself a GT2 and the value will hold far better than a 996tt or tt's.
of course the above is dependant on a) you dont have a need for rear seats and b) you are comfortable at the thought of going through a hedge backwards.......
mbutchers said:
As per KayC really - or indeed a GT2....
Have a chat with the guys at DMS - they may persuade you. There are many chipped TT's running around without problems. It certainly adds a new dimension to the standard TT. Have a chat with Kay - he might let you have a go in his...!
Have a chat with the guys at DMS - they may persuade you. There are many chipped TT's running around without problems. It certainly adds a new dimension to the standard TT. Have a chat with Kay - he might let you have a go in his...!
Yeh yeh, wake up & smell the roses!
These cars are designed to last 100k miles ++ as standard, of course you can abuse them in the short term by increasing boost pressure, but in the long term there will be pay back & this will bite you on the bum come re-sale unless you don't tell the next owner! Maybe if the car is treated to a very careful warming up ritual & the oil & filters are changed more regularly than officially specified all may be ok, but you don't get anything for free, extra boost pressure puts extra strain on the engine, transmission, gearbox & other components, which creates more wear etc etc! Why doesn't Porsche simply release the cars with the extra power in the first place, it would help them sell more cars.................stop press 550 bhp 996TT leaves 360 for dead!!!!?
I for one would not buy a modified 996TT beyond sports cats/sports exhaust, this is a thoroughbred 100k sports car, not a 20k pocket rocket!
(PS. love the bikes, now that is speeeeed!!!)
Edited by Grant3 on Monday 19th March 22:33
Don't kid yourself that changing the oil and carefully warming it up will negate the extra load of additional boost pressure. It won't change BMEP at all and ultimately an ordinarily well serviced engine is as well (or as badly!) protected from damage as one that gets fresh lube every run!
Ultimately the problems stem from two things - one is quite simply exceeding the mechanical strength of the components (don't you think Porsche would love to cane the Ferrari 360 if they could without destroying their reputation for reliability!) and two is the fact that the remapping job on a modified car rarely takes into account all possible temperature, humidity and load settings whereas an OEM map is much more developed.
Quite simply there is no magic. If +100 hp was available with no negatives Porsche would have done it....
Ultimately the problems stem from two things - one is quite simply exceeding the mechanical strength of the components (don't you think Porsche would love to cane the Ferrari 360 if they could without destroying their reputation for reliability!) and two is the fact that the remapping job on a modified car rarely takes into account all possible temperature, humidity and load settings whereas an OEM map is much more developed.
Quite simply there is no magic. If +100 hp was available with no negatives Porsche would have done it....
Grant3 said:
mbutchers said:
As per KayC really - or indeed a GT2....
Have a chat with the guys at DMS - they may persuade you. There are many chipped TT's running around without problems. It certainly adds a new dimension to the standard TT. Have a chat with Kay - he might let you have a go in his...!
Have a chat with the guys at DMS - they may persuade you. There are many chipped TT's running around without problems. It certainly adds a new dimension to the standard TT. Have a chat with Kay - he might let you have a go in his...!
Yeh yeh, wake up & smell the roses!
These cars are designed to last 100k miles ++ as standard, of course you can abuse them in the short term by increasing boost pressure, but in the long term there will be pay back & this will bite you on the bum come re-sale unless you don't tell the next owner! Maybe if the car is treated to a very careful warming up ritual & the oil & filters are changed more regularly than officially specified all may be ok, but you don't get anything for free, extra boost pressure puts extra strain on the engine, transmission, gearbox & other components, which creates more wear etc etc! Why doesn't Porsche simply release the cars with the extra power in the first place, it would help them sell more cars.................stop press 550 bhp 996TT leaves 360 for dead!!!!?
I for one would not buy a modified 996TT beyond sports cats/sports exhaust, this is a thoroughbred 100k sports car, not a 20k pocket rocket!
(PS. love the bikes, now that is speeeeed!!!)
Edited by Grant3 on Monday 19th March 22:33
Actually, the standard BHP of the TT is WELL within manufacturer tolerance of all the internal components. For example, the turbos run between .6 and .9 bar on a standard car (iirc). The Turbo manufacturer rates those turbos up to 1.6 bar. Tuners like DMS are well aware of this - hence their tuning only upping the boost to a max of 1.2 bar (peak).
There is a lot to be said for proper tuning. Type approval is another reason why Manufacturers (like Porsche) do not sell cars in an optimum state of tune, but rather in a state of tune that is acceptable/legal in as many countries as possible.
Grant3 said:
......I for one would not buy a modified 996TT beyond sports cats/sports exhaust......
This is slightly worrying . I happen to agree that short term gains in bhp will shorten engine/gearbox/transmission life , long term.
But what's to stop someone re-configuring their TT to standard after years of 'over the top' motoring.
Can the ordinary punter on the street check a car to see if it's been tweaked in the past??
To be fair there are a lot of amatuer experts on this subject who clearly are guessing at the reliability issue of an upgrade..do people seriously think that Porsche cars are totally maxed out for maximum performance from the factory?For a simple start the standard tt exhaust makes the car run worse than an aftermarket pipe because it gives back pressure that turbo engines dont want..so why do Porsche do that?My first Yamaha fzr1000 was restricted to 100bhp from the factory(by blocking the inlet manifold with rubber slides,easily removed and gained 20bhp,made the bike run better and yamaha new everyone would do it...using the japanese example again does everyone think that subaru and mitsubishi car engines can only deliver 286bhp safely because thats what the factory offers?The other thing that seems to get forgotten is that if you have 500+bhp how often do you actually use it all because you dont need to and certainly no point in redlining because its peak power is at lower revs..just coz an engine boosts to 0.9 bar doesnt mean you use it there that often..
Have to agree with Kayc totally on this one.
The turbo engines are well within tolerance levels, and are actually detuned to make the car..
1) more user friendly
2) keep the insurance companies happy
3) keep warranty issues to minimum (for drivers who have zero mechanical respect)
4) to enable manufacturer to sell add on packs (x50)
5) because selling a standard tt with 550+ leaves little room for future marketing
The key factors to operating a tuned turbo engined car are..
1) warm up the engine thoroughly before applying boost
2) ensure turbo cooling following high boost application, before switching off
3) monitor oil levels on a very regular basis (I check oil on dash every day I drive car, as I like to monitor oil consumption in comparison to my driving style and to satisfy my OCD tendancies
4) this the key one.. generally respect the engine and drivetrain during hard driving.
As Kayc said, you don't need to apply full throttle most of the time, when you have 500+bhp and torque.
I never drag from lights, I never use full throttle in 1st gear, and rarely use full throttle in 2nd.
Mind you 3rd gear on full boost in my car creates enough force to spin the rims in my tyres.. (well nearly)
My car should be back at the weekend after more fettling, we shall see how it performs.
A modded GT2 really is the wasy to go, if you can get it to handle like a GT3.. and get close to 600bhp from it (this is my goal) then you have cracked the supercar nut, and have the perfect toy!
IMO
Rob
The turbo engines are well within tolerance levels, and are actually detuned to make the car..
1) more user friendly
2) keep the insurance companies happy
3) keep warranty issues to minimum (for drivers who have zero mechanical respect)
4) to enable manufacturer to sell add on packs (x50)
5) because selling a standard tt with 550+ leaves little room for future marketing
The key factors to operating a tuned turbo engined car are..
1) warm up the engine thoroughly before applying boost
2) ensure turbo cooling following high boost application, before switching off
3) monitor oil levels on a very regular basis (I check oil on dash every day I drive car, as I like to monitor oil consumption in comparison to my driving style and to satisfy my OCD tendancies
4) this the key one.. generally respect the engine and drivetrain during hard driving.
As Kayc said, you don't need to apply full throttle most of the time, when you have 500+bhp and torque.
I never drag from lights, I never use full throttle in 1st gear, and rarely use full throttle in 2nd.
Mind you 3rd gear on full boost in my car creates enough force to spin the rims in my tyres.. (well nearly
) My car should be back at the weekend after more fettling, we shall see how it performs.
A modded GT2 really is the wasy to go, if you can get it to handle like a GT3.. and get close to 600bhp from it (this is my goal) then you have cracked the supercar nut, and have the perfect toy!
IMO
Rob
kayc said:
To be fair there are a lot of amatuer experts on this subject who clearly are guessing at the reliability issue of an upgrade..do people seriously think that Porsche cars are totally maxed out for maximum performance from the factory?For a simple start the standard tt exhaust makes the car run worse than an aftermarket pipe because it gives back pressure that turbo engines dont want..so why do Porsche do that?My first Yamaha fzr1000 was restricted to 100bhp from the factory(by blocking the inlet manifold with rubber slides,easily removed and gained 20bhp,made the bike run better and yamaha new everyone would do it...using the japanese example again does everyone think that subaru and mitsubishi car engines can only deliver 286bhp safely because thats what the factory offers?The other thing that seems to get forgotten is that if you have 500+bhp how often do you actually use it all because you dont need to and certainly no point in redlining because its peak power is at lower revs..just coz an engine boosts to 0.9 bar doesnt mean you use it there that often..
Of course there are tolerances built into the components, but the buffer is there for a reason.
Now I fully accept that Porsche has to engineer their cars to meet very tight noise, pollution & fueling restrictions in various countries, so that is the reason they can't engineer a Turbo as standard with an after market style exhaust system. So clearly it should be possible to gain some horses reliably by allowing, for example, a much greater volume of noise & a little more pollution via a 100/200 cell sports exhaust system!
BUT to simply ramp up the boost pressure & rev limit to gain extra power has to have pay back some where! I'm not saying there are hundreds of TT's that are going to blow up, particularly if it is small "tweek" I'm just saying that there is likely to be greater wear on these cars as the mileage increases. Which is a worry when repairs are so expensive! It isn't just the engine rather gearbox & clutch, why else do Porsche beef up these components on the X-50 for only 30 extra horses?
The Japanese pocket rockets totally reinforce my point, all the FQ are very expensive to run due to their VERY high state of tune, they also have a high intensity service schedule, is it every 3/5k miles they need oil etc?
Having said this each to their own & even if you have to replace the clutch I suppose it could still be a cheap way to enjoy a car with supercar performance, the trouble is it may be the next owner that ends up paying & I for one would not want to buy an after market boost modified car, whether Porsche or any other manufacturer, but I can still understand those that want the extra grunt & are prepared to accept the risk/costs involved!
Because manufacturers build in the (non sympathetic for mechanical parts) driver.
I'm sure that a percentage of new TT owners, (prob none on here, i would hope).. have no mechanical knowledge, but have the money to buy the latest 911 toy. These are the ones most likely to thrash cold engines and neglect routine checks of oil etc. They also prob don't care about a lease car with warranty.
I would think that the more specialised cars (GT2, 3, RS) are owned by more knowledgeable and enthusiastic drivers, and therefore are more mechanically nurtured during their driving life.
IMO
I'm sure that a percentage of new TT owners, (prob none on here, i would hope).. have no mechanical knowledge, but have the money to buy the latest 911 toy. These are the ones most likely to thrash cold engines and neglect routine checks of oil etc. They also prob don't care about a lease car with warranty.
I would think that the more specialised cars (GT2, 3, RS) are owned by more knowledgeable and enthusiastic drivers, and therefore are more mechanically nurtured during their driving life.
IMO
Just to make a ricer comparison..
when Mitsu decided to bring the fq400 out, they could easily have built a 500bhp EVO that would absolutely annihilate most opposition. They didn't because they had to give it a warranty, and they knew that drivers would be ripping gearboxes and driveshafts out with standing starts, knowing that the warranty would cover it.
when Mitsu decided to bring the fq400 out, they could easily have built a 500bhp EVO that would absolutely annihilate most opposition. They didn't because they had to give it a warranty, and they knew that drivers would be ripping gearboxes and driveshafts out with standing starts, knowing that the warranty would cover it.
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