996GT3 vs 997GT3 in EVO

[hunter 66]

Good test , 429 at the dyno and just quicker than the old RS at Bed but could not better the 996 to 100mph ....good read

[kennyboy]

I've seen this a few places now - the 997gt3 not being quicker than the 996gt3, whether this be in RS form or not.....

it got me thinking - maybe the improvements are to focussed around the less experienced driver going faster?

i.e. the race driver couldn't go any faster in the 997 though maybe the same time was easier. But joe bloggs could go faster in the 997?

[grant3]

Great I'll look forward to my copy coming through!

I don't see it as a problem that the new GT3 isn't any faster in a straight line (although even quicker than the old Rs around a track...note) the series 2 996GT3 was F-ing fast, same a Turbo to the Ton!

BUT I wouldn't have purchased the old 996GT3 because it was simply too compromised on road, it skipped hopped, followed ruts & generally lost total composure over a bumpy B road, on track or on a hardcore drive fantastic as a daily driver no way...unless you have steel balls!!!

This is where the new model has moved on it offers all the performance, driver interactions & handling of the old car, but adds an even better sound & a bumpy B road handling package that is on a totally different level!

The 997GT3 is one step closer to the best of both worlds, all the driving pleasure without the pain!

[murcielago_boy]

grant3 said:

BUT I wouldn't have purchased the old 996GT3 because it was simply too compromised on road, it skipped hopped, followed ruts & generally lost total composure over a bumpy B road, on track or on a hardcore drive fantastic as a daily driver no way...unless you have steel balls!!!

The quality of the RIDE of the old car is/was certainly compromised when it comes to a comfort point of view...BUT even with the more hardcore 996RS, we must agree to disagree about "total loss of composure over bumpy B road." It's just not true. As I've found out over the last 2 years and 2 GT3s, most of the problems were down to incorrect driving technique and suspension geo settings.
I attribute almost all of the new cars very very marginal performance advantage to the cup tyres.

The new 997 GT3 is a FABULOUS car - to think that it can do everything the old car could and still be comfortable is unbelievable. I would say though that I have strong suspicion that the old GT3 (esp the RS) will be held in quite high esteem over the next few years as one of the last truly hardcore trackday 911s that were NOT for beginners.
Grant - congrats on the new machine. I'm truly envious.

Nik.

[ChrisW.]

grant3 said:

Great I'll look forward to my copy coming through!

I don't see it as a problem that the new GT3 isn't any faster in a straight line (although even quicker than the old Rs around a track...note) the series 2 996GT3 was F-ing fast, same a Turbo to the Ton!

BUT I wouldn't have purchased the old 996GT3 because it was simply too compromised on road, it skipped hopped, followed ruts & generally lost total composure over a bumpy B road, on track or on a hardcore drive fantastic as a daily driver no way...unless you have steel balls!!!

This is where the new model has moved on it offers all the performance, driver interactions & handling of the old car, but adds an even better sound & a bumpy B road handling package that is on a totally different level!

The 997GT3 is one step closer to the best of both worlds, all the driving pleasure without the pain!

I also cannot agree.

That's precisely where I drive my GT3MkII --- and the reason I went for PCCB's and the softest possible setting.

Yes it tramlines, no it doesn't hop, yes it seems less composed than a Clio Trophy, --- until you look at the speedo.

997 GT3 ? The book has yet to be written. There is even disagreement on what the standard suspension set-up is and whether this should be common for both Cup and the longer wearing road alternative Pilot Sport 2 tyres ?

[Porsche GT3]

The 997 GT3 is indeed quicker than the 996 GT3, it is a fabelous car! Haven't driven the new RS yet, still waiting for mine, but the 996 RS was fantastic so I have high hopes but I don't think I will be let down

Don't get me wrong, love the 996 GT3 but the 997 GT3 has pushed the game on....

[rappa]

Having clicked on Grant3's profile and entered the domain of Aston Martin (a forum I never venture to). I find that the tone of the conversation to be a little more British and full of mutual back slapping that the Germanic overtones of this forum. That linked to the multiple references to Jolie.................I like..........She's my sister you know......rrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

There you go I've now brought it back down to the gutteral Nova level.

Burberry caps anyone?

Clearly this has nothing to do with the 996/7 GT3 but hey Jolie would probably like them.

[housemaster]

Hello, my name is Mr Steel Balls

I use mine as a daily driver, hell I have added 11,000 miles in 9 months so I really MUST get that B car I have been talking about, but I am totally happy with the way my MkII GT3 rides no matter how bumpy it is, though I do get this odd clanking noise around my trouser area every time I go over a bump

997 GT3 is stunning and I will be in one next time around, but personally I have not a single issue with using the 996 GT3 as a daily driver, I can live with its foibles “cus I is dead hardcore n stuff”

[slippydiff]

housemaster said:

Hello, my name is Mr Steel Balls

I use mine as a daily driver, hell I have added 11,000 miles in 9 months so I really MUST get that B car I have been talking about, but I am totally happy with the way my MkII GT3 rides no matter how bumpy it is, though I do get this odd clanking noise around my trouser area every time I go over a bump

997 GT3 is stunning and I will be in one next time around, but personally I have not a single issue with using the 996 GT3 as a daily driver, I can live with its foibles “cus I is dead hardcore n stuff”

Innit ?

HM, will have some update news for you soon, phase one carried out today, and things look too be improved drastically

[housemaster]

slippydiff said:

Innit ?

HM, will have some update news for you soon, phase one carried out today, and things look too be improved drastically

Ah brilliant, I am very interested to get your first impressions as I was actually wondering if you had the 'stuff' done only this morning. Catch up soon no doubt, give me a shout tomorrow if you get a moment

[grant3]

Guys don't bust a gut, if the the 996 GT3 works for you on a typical B road, great that is all that counts.

I love a drivers car, had a Carrera 2 with 030 sports suspension....great, had another with the standard set up, crap in comparison. I like a firm sporting suspension, but even for a serial 911 owner like myself the standard 996GT3 was too hardcore, it literally blurred my vision on my favourite B road, whilst the Mrs was literally bouncing out of her seat on occasion, white knuckle fun in the right mood, but not every day.
Having said this I haven't tried the Parr or JZ softer set-up's, so you make a fair point!

Anyway my point wasn't to knock the 996Gt3, its a great car, simply to say the benefits of the new car lie in its ability to be more things to more people, sorry but the fact is on your average british B road it is VASTLY superior to the last car in terms of composure, ride quality & ultimately handling under these harsh conditions, whilst loosing very little of the hardcore driver focus, ultimately we are step closer to that win win option, track racer & road car in one!

But you are paying an extra £25k for the privilege against a nice used 996, so if you have a good set of fillings & don't mind blurred vision, clearly the 996 is far better value & an awesome car, maybe I should have tried a Parr/Jz car or the like before parting with the cash!

By the way Rappa, what are you on?

[housemaster]

Each to their own grant, my jibe was in good humour not a dig mate. What works for one on any given day may not work for other people, I know the GT3 for most people is just too raw and I can fully understand that.

[Rob_R]

murcielago_boy said:

I attribute almost all of the new cars very very marginal performance advantage to the cup tyres.

just my 2 pennies, but I donnot believe the advantage to be very very small. It is small but significant. The new car has superior brakes, aerodynamics, engine, stability - you name it. You would be at least 8 secs a lap faster around the Nordschleife with the car asking far fewer questions of its pilot. The 997 chassis just has more talent in it.

Still love the 996 though I have to say.

[rumplestiltskin]

When Porsche develops the 911 it doesn't tend to aim for taking chunks out of the 0-60 or 0-100, I mean there is nothing in it between a 996C2 & a 997C2S 0-100 time, but the 997 laps any circuit you care to put them on seconds faster. To be fair I can understand this as unless they give the newer model much much more power, any smaller power gain will be negated by the usual increase in kerb weight of the model. So most of the work goes into improving the aerodynamics, handling, balance etc etc all of which makes it faster on a circuit but not much advantage in a straight line.

R.

[ChrisW.]

grant3 said:

Guys don't bust a gut, if the the 996 GT3 works for you on a typical B road, great that is all that counts.

I love a drivers car, had a Carrera 2 with 030 sports suspension....great, had another with the standard set up, crap in comparison. I like a firm sporting suspension, but even for a serial 911 owner like myself the standard 996GT3 was too hardcore, it literally blurred my vision on my favourite B road, whilst the Mrs was literally bouncing out of her seat on occasion, white knuckle fun in the right mood, but not every day.
Having said this I haven't tried the Parr or JZ softer set-up's, so you make a fair point!

Anyway my point wasn't to knock the 996Gt3, its a great car, simply to say the benefits of the new car lie in its ability to be more things to more people, sorry but the fact is on your average british B road it is VASTLY superior to the last car in terms of composure, ride quality & ultimately handling under these harsh conditions, whilst loosing very little of the hardcore driver focus, ultimately we are step closer to that win win option, track racer & road car in one!

But you are paying an extra £25k for the privilege against a nice used 996, so if you have a good set of fillings & don't mind blurred vision, clearly the 996 is far better value & an awesome car, maybe I should have tried a Parr/Jz car or the like before parting with the cash!

By the way Rappa, what are you on?

And likewise I haven't been fortunate enough to drive a 997GT3 --- so maybe I have yet to discover what I am missing.

It's just the extra 30 thick wads that puts me off.

Maybe I should put my order in now for the 998 GT3 --- which will probably have to be a Hybrid !

[997gt3]

ChrisW. said:

Maybe I should put my order in now for the 998 GT3 --- which will probably have to be a Hybrid !

"997GT3 - last of the true great water-cooled 911's"

[ChrisW.]

'Still can't work out why the 997 GT3 isn't hitting it's numbers.

The 996 Gt3 MkII was faser than it ought to have been --- by comparison to the MkI.

An extra 21BHP and minor tweaking should not add up to 1 second less to 100 --- but every mag figured the GT3MkII.

So why should an extra 30odd BHP add up to almost no time saved to 100 --- on a 997 which supposedly weighs almost the same as the 996 from which it is evolved ?

[Grant3]

ChrisW. said:

'Still can't work out why the 997 GT3 isn't hitting it's numbers.

The 996 Gt3 MkII was faser than it ought to have been --- by comparison to the MkI.

An extra 21BHP and minor tweaking should not add up to 1 second less to 100 --- but every mag figured the GT3MkII.

So why should an extra 30odd BHP add up to almost no time saved to 100 --- on a 997 which supposedly weighs almost the same as the 996 from which it is evolved ?

Maybe you only have to look at the Autocar figures for the original 996 C2 for an answer, it was shall we say rather quicker than expected & actually just as fast as the Mk 1 Gt3 when it was eventually figured, a little awkward for Porsche, so maybe they had to show progress again with the Mk2!!! The 360 was just the same, original tests claimed 8 odd secs to a ton & the 430 of today is actually rated as slower at over 9 secs! The original C2 or the 360 couldn't duplicate the same figures again in later customer car tests! In these politically correct highly profitable days things have just got a little more honest, whilst in reality the 0.5- 1 secs quicker to a ton that each new model was tweaked to offer makes zip difference in the real world, you need a good few seconds advantage to put clean air between you & the old model behind!!!!
The reality is much of the extra performance claimed for a new model was designed to make it more desirable & a reason to change, but the car market is changing, it is becoming more "carbon" & real world sensitive & less.. must be faster every time!

Edited by Grant3 on Friday 9th March 23:15

[polarexpress]

ChrisW. said:

'Still can't work out why the 997 GT3 isn't hitting it's numbers.

The 996 Gt3 MkII was faser than it ought to have been --- by comparison to the MkI.

An extra 21BHP and minor tweaking should not add up to 1 second less to 100 --- but every mag figured the GT3MkII.

So why should an extra 30odd BHP add up to almost no time saved to 100 --- on a 997 which supposedly weighs almost the same as the 996 from which it is evolved ?

The big difference contributing to the number difference between the mk1 and mk2 on full bore acceleration runs is the gearing and ability of the mk2 to rev an extra 400rpm where peak power (good for accel) is produced. Each time the mk1 has to shift a gear, the mk2 gains marginal ground and the mk2 is slightly deeper into the power band when it engages the next gear. Over 2 gear shifts to 100 and there is the time differential.

But in give-and-take driving, the difference is nill as the mk1 is noticeably lighter and slightly more responsive (imho).

[hunter 66]

When comparing the the GT3 to my previous car a 64 RS the ride is like a sofa on wheels..