"Buy The Warranty" they say!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Discussion
I have noticed over the last few years that a change has taken place in the way people buy things in general and it shocks me!
Not that many years ago, maybe 20, you would buy an item on it's merits. Those would be principly price and quality of the goods you bought. Things would often be purchased on reputation for useabilty and longevity. If an item had a poor reputation for breaking down you'd steer clear. The idea for most people back then of an extended warrrenty was absurd, if it broke down you'd simply never buy that brand again. I think this is true of most things people bought from fridge freezers, washing machines to cars. And buy and large it was a good system.Things truly lasted and stood the test of time. The rubbish got weeded out as no one bought it.
Fast forward to now and a warranty is offered for just about anything and there are a plethora of rubbish brands of goods you can try your arm with. Now it seems it's the same with cars too. WHY OH WHY do people put up with it????????
We don't have as much choice these days, though.
Most consumer goods, including cars are now built by accountants not by engineers. This inevitably leads to compromise and goods which have a shorter life. Hence more people are encouraged to buy warranties and the warranties are more restrictive.
There's really no way out and I think it is bound to get worse and worse until eventually the earth collapses in on itself and we become a big black hole which swallows up the universe leading to the end of exististence.
Then whatever life is formed from the new universe can start all over again and do it properly
That's made me think - Maybe there's a parallel universe out there where 996s really do last for 200,000 miles...
Most consumer goods, including cars are now built by accountants not by engineers. This inevitably leads to compromise and goods which have a shorter life. Hence more people are encouraged to buy warranties and the warranties are more restrictive.
There's really no way out and I think it is bound to get worse and worse until eventually the earth collapses in on itself and we become a big black hole which swallows up the universe leading to the end of exististence.
Then whatever life is formed from the new universe can start all over again and do it properly
That's made me think - Maybe there's a parallel universe out there where 996s really do last for 200,000 miles...
because free-market competition (particularly in an age of cheap imports from e.g China) is now so ferocious, and profit margin on items is now so pared-to-the-bone (i.m mainly talking white goods here, not porsches!) that extended warranties offer many companies their only reliable source of profit. Plus the Blair culture-of-fear-and-blame which extends to every aspect of our lives, including worrying about things breaking.
we live in a society where someone, somewhere has to be to blame for anything adverse that happens. no wonder excessive insuring (i.e warranties) have become the norm
we live in a society where someone, somewhere has to be to blame for anything adverse that happens. no wonder excessive insuring (i.e warranties) have become the norm
interesting point.
Completley flawed, but interesting.
Once upon a time, people bought things to last, furniture, pots, pans etc. When you got married, the wedding gifts were traditionally expensive items designed to last.
Ironically, back then, cars broke down, it was a 'given', they were complicated things, and always needed topping up with oil here, a tweak there (remember having to have points adjusted). Some were better than others, but as with anything, it came down to budget.
Nowadays, we are in a throwaway generation, we buy crap from Ikea thats lucky if it lasts 3 years, let alone 30, if it breaks you dont repair it, you replace it.
Slightly ironically, as we have entered this phase in life, cars have become significantly more reliable, however, what people seem to forget, they are still very complicated things, and now its all controlled by computers, getting oil on your hands to keep it going is rarely an option.
So, you have those that replace their car for a new one with warranty, and those that go for older cars that they maintain themselves, and in the middle, you have cars which, are perfectly good and reliable, but still are a combination of thousands of interacting parts that are subjected to various stresses, and as such, will wear out and sometimes break.
On something such as a Porsche, this is an expensive thing, so an extended warranty sheilds you from some of these costs should the worst happen.
Completley flawed, but interesting.
Once upon a time, people bought things to last, furniture, pots, pans etc. When you got married, the wedding gifts were traditionally expensive items designed to last.
Ironically, back then, cars broke down, it was a 'given', they were complicated things, and always needed topping up with oil here, a tweak there (remember having to have points adjusted). Some were better than others, but as with anything, it came down to budget.
Nowadays, we are in a throwaway generation, we buy crap from Ikea thats lucky if it lasts 3 years, let alone 30, if it breaks you dont repair it, you replace it.
Slightly ironically, as we have entered this phase in life, cars have become significantly more reliable, however, what people seem to forget, they are still very complicated things, and now its all controlled by computers, getting oil on your hands to keep it going is rarely an option.
So, you have those that replace their car for a new one with warranty, and those that go for older cars that they maintain themselves, and in the middle, you have cars which, are perfectly good and reliable, but still are a combination of thousands of interacting parts that are subjected to various stresses, and as such, will wear out and sometimes break.
On something such as a Porsche, this is an expensive thing, so an extended warranty sheilds you from some of these costs should the worst happen.
Fidgits said:
interesting point.
Slightly ironically, as we have entered this phase in life, cars have become significantly more reliable, however, what people seem to forget, they are still very complicated things, and now its all controlled by computers, getting oil on your hands to keep it going is rarely an option.
Slightly ironically, as we have entered this phase in life, cars have become significantly more reliable, however, what people seem to forget, they are still very complicated things, and now its all controlled by computers, getting oil on your hands to keep it going is rarely an option.
Cars generally last a lot longer, VWs for one just don't rust like they did in the early 80s - bring back the 80s!
I'd suggest the cars (makes) that were unreliable then are not with us now or more accurately have been bought out by the ones that were traditionally more reliable.
Porsche specifically, I don't recall the almost mantra like sayings of "buy the warranty" with earlier versions!
We seem not to care that these things are built down rather than up?
Porsche specifically, I don't recall the almost mantra like sayings of "buy the warranty" with earlier versions!
We seem not to care that these things are built down rather than up?
i think just by having a vw/porsche shows what type of people we all are on here! if we wanted a car that needed its warranty all the time we would of bought a fezza or worse a french car that breaks every time you drive it.
yes lexi are good but boring so where do you draw the line?
yes lexi are good but boring so where do you draw the line?
vwsurfbum said:
i think just by having a vw/porsche shows what type of people we all are on here! if we wanted a car that needed its warranty all the time we would of bought a fezza or worse a french car that breaks every time you drive it.
yes lexi are good but boring so where do you draw the line?
yes lexi are good but boring so where do you draw the line?
I assume from your last comment you've never actually owned a Lexus
Having had one for 4 years I can say they are anything but boring, mine was a better drive than all the BMW's and Merc's I compared it to, and found it gave a lot more feedback than an Evo VIII I nearly bought.
I find it funny you say 'old porsches never break', yes in the old days Porsches were built much, much better than their Peers, however, as said, most car companies are well ahead of standards from just 20 years ago, so a modern Porsche might actually be more reliable than one built 20 years ago, however because every VW, Ford and Alfa has vastly improved, it appears that it isnt much better than them, so you jump to the conclusion it must be worse...
I think you've just proved the conclusion. By your own words, if the older cars were much better built and everyone else has caught up then either Porsche would have carried on in the same way being head and shoulders above the rest or their standards have slipped and are worse!
I also don't see anyone ssaying old porsche never broke down. Simply the magnitude of what now breaks seems to have punters running for the OPC warranty now.
I also don't see anyone ssaying old porsche never broke down. Simply the magnitude of what now breaks seems to have punters running for the OPC warranty now.
Edited by lemon yella rs on Wednesday 17th January 11:49
Fidgits said:
I find it funny you say 'old porsches never break', yes in the old days Porsches were built much, much better than their Peers, however, as said, most car companies are well ahead of standards from just 20 years ago, so a modern Porsche might actually be more reliable than one built 20 years ago, however because every VW, Ford and Alfa has vastly improved, it appears that it isnt much better than them, so you jump to the conclusion it must be worse...
Like any other make Porsche has had its share of things that go wrong, pre 3.2 tensioners, 964 oil injectors, 944 cambelts/chains, early pulled head studs etc etc. There are loads of them if you look. I think we forget that the old 993 had a huge multi-year development ironing out all of these problems, whereas the 996 engine being such a new design, (e.g. using an open deck layout that 928s, Volvos etc has used perfectly happily before, etc.) has a couple of weak spots simply because it was new and the testing regime failed to pick up a few corner cases. Compared to any modern software (discounting Windows of course which is made like a colander and permanently broken) the modern high-performance Porsche engine does pretty well, in fact compared to most hi-performance brands it does pretty well too.
Especially when you hear the stories of Fezza 360s and 430s lunching engines every 10k miles and consumable bills that add up to a new boxster every few years.
I think the key is simply: Buy an OPC warranty and enjoy the car, it's cheaper than BMW, and third party warranties have never been worth the paper they were printed on. Ever.
lemon yella rs said:
I think you've just proved the conclusion. By your own words, if the older cars were much better built and everyone else has caught up then either Porsche would have carried on in the same way being head and shoulders above the rest or their standards have slipped and are worse!
I also don't see anyone ssaying old porsche never broke down. Simply the magnitude of what now breaks seems to have punters running for the OPC warranty now.
I also don't see anyone ssaying old porsche never broke down. Simply the magnitude of what now breaks seems to have punters running for the OPC warranty now.
Edited by lemon yella rs on Wednesday 17th January 11:49
eh?
No, im saying perhaps Porsche are built the same, and everyone else caught up - that doesnt make them worse, it just means they havent moved forward... but then, if your the number 1 tennis player in the world, its much harder to improve than if your number 15...
And when you say magnitude, do you actually have figures on averages? Considering porsche sell a lot more cars now than they ever have, do you have comparative per cars sold? Or are you simply basising it on hearsay and rumour?
Personally I never buy extended warranties on ANYTHING.... The money I've saved over the years sits in my bank account earning me interest instead. Sure, it'd hurt a bit if anything major went wrong but that's the risk I take. Thus far the balance of probabilities is well on my side and the money I've saved could now pay for a major blowup.
I've had white goods expire just outside the manufacturers warranty but successfully used the Sale Of Goods Act and usually ended up in a better position thanks to the continual erosion of list prices.
Look at the number of "I've got a warranty but the bastards are squirming" posts we've seen over the years. Just because you've got a warranty doesn't mean you'll always get a payout. The decision is about balancing the likelihood of a major mechanical failure versus total outlay. I think the only exception to this rule would be if I ever bought a TVR.
I would say you're more likely to opt for a warranty if you're not mechanically inclined
I've had white goods expire just outside the manufacturers warranty but successfully used the Sale Of Goods Act and usually ended up in a better position thanks to the continual erosion of list prices.
Look at the number of "I've got a warranty but the bastards are squirming" posts we've seen over the years. Just because you've got a warranty doesn't mean you'll always get a payout. The decision is about balancing the likelihood of a major mechanical failure versus total outlay. I think the only exception to this rule would be if I ever bought a TVR.
I would say you're more likely to opt for a warranty if you're not mechanically inclined
No of course I don't have numbers. I can't see any motor manufacturer ever releasing them.To give you an idea though , i know of three people with 993's and 3 people with Boxsters or 996 on 911's, guess which is the group that has all three cars suffering engine failure!And of course that's no way scientific at all but it does make you think. By magnitude i mean what is actually failing. It was virtually unheard of (not impossible though) to hear of engine failure in the pre water cooled cars or of rms problems. In the older cars the engine was likely to outlast the car. I simply don't agree with your theory that everyone else has improved and Porsche have stoodstill (which would be bad enough) i think everyone else has improved and Porsche have gone backwards reliability and quality wise.
Hilarious.
993 fan (geddit) desperately trying to talk up their residuals shockah, LMFAO!
Aside from the niche enthusiast market (who will always buy a minter 993 at an inflated price because they want one for its heritage which is fair enough) 993s are just seen as old smokers these days.
90% of the luxury used car buying market see the 996 and 997 as the shiny new model, and that is what they will buy. As such, I forsee a crash in 993 prices as downward pressure from the 996 and 997 cause them to plummet. Who in their right mind buys a ten year old 993 Turbo for £60k when they can get a 2004 996 GT3RS or Turbo for £60k....... No one except Mr Beard, that's who.
As 993s wear out, they will become more and more troublesome and undesireable and the fact you can't get a manufacturer warranty for them any more (aside from the last few) means that a huge propotrtion of punters won't be interested.
Who buys a 1996 Ford Escort for £15,000 instead of a 2007 Focus ST? Answer - am tiny minority who buy a minter Cosworth. The rest are worth less than my shoes, and the Cosworth is still a decade old Ford Escort.
[tinhat]
Discuss.
993 fan (geddit) desperately trying to talk up their residuals shockah, LMFAO!
Aside from the niche enthusiast market (who will always buy a minter 993 at an inflated price because they want one for its heritage which is fair enough) 993s are just seen as old smokers these days.
90% of the luxury used car buying market see the 996 and 997 as the shiny new model, and that is what they will buy. As such, I forsee a crash in 993 prices as downward pressure from the 996 and 997 cause them to plummet. Who in their right mind buys a ten year old 993 Turbo for £60k when they can get a 2004 996 GT3RS or Turbo for £60k....... No one except Mr Beard, that's who.
As 993s wear out, they will become more and more troublesome and undesireable and the fact you can't get a manufacturer warranty for them any more (aside from the last few) means that a huge propotrtion of punters won't be interested.
Who buys a 1996 Ford Escort for £15,000 instead of a 2007 Focus ST? Answer - am tiny minority who buy a minter Cosworth. The rest are worth less than my shoes, and the Cosworth is still a decade old Ford Escort.
[tinhat]
Discuss.
Edited by Vesuvius 996 on Wednesday 17th January 12:35
BliarOut said:
Personally I never buy extended warranties on ANYTHING.... The money I've saved over the years sits in my bank account earning me interest instead. Sure, it'd hurt a bit if anything major went wrong but that's the risk I take. Thus far the balance of probabilities is well on my side and the money I've saved could now pay for a major blowup.
In fact the clue is in the name: 'Warranty Company', rather than 'Warranty Charity', over time, mathematics being what it is...
they can run an entire business and then some on the basis that on average you're worse off buying warranties from them.
The mathematical proof against buying any warranty from a warranty company is:
mathematics said:
Their Profit = Your money - payouts.
BliarOut said:
Personally I never buy extended warranties on ANYTHING.... The money I've saved over the years sits in my bank account earning me interest instead. Sure, it'd hurt a bit if anything major went wrong but that's the risk I take. Thus far the balance of probabilities is well on my side and the money I've saved could now pay for a major blowup.
I've had white goods expire just outside the manufacturers warranty but successfully used the Sale Of Goods Act and usually ended up in a better position thanks to the continual erosion of list prices.
Look at the number of "I've got a warranty but the bastards are squirming" posts we've seen over the years. Just because you've got a warranty doesn't mean you'll always get a payout. The decision is about balancing the likelihood of a major mechanical failure versus total outlay. I think the only exception to this rule would be if I ever bought a TVR.
I would say you're more likely to opt for a warranty if you're not mechanically inclined
I've had white goods expire just outside the manufacturers warranty but successfully used the Sale Of Goods Act and usually ended up in a better position thanks to the continual erosion of list prices.
Look at the number of "I've got a warranty but the bastards are squirming" posts we've seen over the years. Just because you've got a warranty doesn't mean you'll always get a payout. The decision is about balancing the likelihood of a major mechanical failure versus total outlay. I think the only exception to this rule would be if I ever bought a TVR.
I would say you're more likely to opt for a warranty if you're not mechanically inclined
I agree with you on everything but cars blairout. My last three cars all had work carried out under warranty that exceeded the cost of the warranty (in the case of the 996 it was a £8k gearbox
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