Porsche's state of mind
Discussion
Having watched this - [url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc[/url] I have decided to postpone my forray into Porschedom.
I was going to wait until the 2008 model Caymen S (with a hopefull power upgrade) but after seeing the programme that Porsche have completely sold out. It's no longer about the purity of engineering.
I was going to wait until the 2008 model Caymen S (with a hopefull power upgrade) but after seeing the programme that Porsche have completely sold out. It's no longer about the purity of engineering.
You've lost me 
The film must be nearly 10 years old but was a fair (PR) reflection of the company's progress.
Since then Porsche have gone from strength to strength. OK the Cayenne was a bit of a 'sell out', and Porsche should still be more involved in frontline motor sports, but the product range is probably the best ever, with each model at the top of its respective sector.
The film must be nearly 10 years old but was a fair (PR) reflection of the company's progress.
Since then Porsche have gone from strength to strength. OK the Cayenne was a bit of a 'sell out', and Porsche should still be more involved in frontline motor sports, but the product range is probably the best ever, with each model at the top of its respective sector.
Koln-RS said:
OK the Cayenne was a bit of a 'sell out', and Porsche should still be more involved in frontline motor sports, but the product range is probably the best ever, with each model at the top of its respective sector.
Fat Americans who buy the Cayenne pay for tomorrow's GT3RS's
I dont think Porsche has lost its identity. On the contrary. It seems to know what people want in a car in every sector ( I just pray the Panamerra ((or whatever it will be called)) will be a bit better looking than the Cayenne)
Davey S2 said:
Fat Americans who buy the Cayenne pay for tomorrow's GT3RS's
I know what you mean, but we're kidding ourselves if we think that Uncle Wendelin is taking advantage of suckers who buy Cayennes and Boxsters in order to subsidise his beloved special editions.
For more than two years they dragged their feet to confirm production of the CGT, until they had enough indications of interest to ensure its profitability.
The difference between the RS and the standard GT3: a perspex rear window, a single mass flywheel and a basic rear wing that were developed eight years ago, and some go-faster livery? I'd say that an extra £14 grand a pop ought to cover it, wouldn't you (for an unlimited build run, no less)?
The GT3 itself: an engine that's many years old in a car that is a modified Carrera, of which in its life they will sell at least 150,000. And the GT3 is £20 grand dearer than the C2.
A racing programme that it totally, 100% paid for directly by the racing customers, everything from the RS Spyder to RSR to Cup car.
Americans may not have the best taste in cars, but anyone, from American hick to European sophisticate (
) who buys any new Porsche is paying his own freight. Porsche may make some of the best cars, but these days they're also the tightest carmaker in the world, and don't give away anything just to be nice.
They can be tight, they're beating people off with a smelly stick. Why, because they have the privilege of have been there, done it, and got the tee-shirt.
I actually think it's a problem for them. What do you do when you've conquered the world?.....
.....Have a cigar, son!
I think that's what the CGT is about. It fills the notional place that represents the next stage. Who's going there though? The world moved on, and bigger was not seen as better. More than any other car, to me the CGT seems more like a tombstone than a car.
I actually think it's a problem for them. What do you do when you've conquered the world?.....
.....Have a cigar, son!
I think that's what the CGT is about. It fills the notional place that represents the next stage. Who's going there though? The world moved on, and bigger was not seen as better. More than any other car, to me the CGT seems more like a tombstone than a car.
dilbert said:
They can be tight, they're beating people off with a smelly stick. Why, because they have the privilege of have been there, done it, and got the tee-shirt.
I actually think it's a problem for them. What do you do when you've conquered the world?.....
.....Have a cigar, son!
I think that's what the CGT is about. It fills the notional place that represents the next stage. Who's going there though? The world moved on, and bigger was not seen as better. More than any other car, to me the CGT seems more like a tombstone than a car.
I actually think it's a problem for them. What do you do when you've conquered the world?.....
.....Have a cigar, son!
I think that's what the CGT is about. It fills the notional place that represents the next stage. Who's going there though? The world moved on, and bigger was not seen as better. More than any other car, to me the CGT seems more like a tombstone than a car.
Perhaps.
I'd say that it was done for two reasons:
- to keep staff motivated. Surely some of the folks who work at Porsche are not entirely satisfied by spending their days reinventing the cupholder or contriving how to find another litre of storage space in the back of a Cayenne, and
- for marketing, to legitimise the "heritage" or "DNA" of the Boxster, Cayenne, maybe even 997s. We've already seen a number of features that were originally unique to the CGT find their way into the more basic cars (bucket seats, wheels, headlamps), and we can be sure that more will do the same?
Anyone want to bet how long before they offer a simple wooden gearshift knob on 997s, and then on Boxsters? How about tailpipes that exit from the midpoint of the PU?
Stay tuned. Wendy'll milk this for all it's worth (unless he goes over to VAG first).
In addition to serving those general corporate goals, the project had to wash its own face or it wasn't going to happen.
Wedekind is a very smart guy, but one thing that for sure he is not is a nostalgic car guy.
[quote=flemkeI know what you mean, but we're kidding ourselves if we think that Uncle Wendelin is taking advantage of suckers who buy Cayennes and Boxsters in order to subsidise his beloved special editions.[/quote]
Flemke
Why do you think people who buy Boxsters are suckers?? or am I reading your post wrongly?
Flemke
Why do you think people who buy Boxsters are suckers?? or am I reading your post wrongly?
IMO they just produce to many cars now and to many different variants of what is basically the same product.
Sometimes i wonder if they should start using L LX GLX insignia on the back of the 911.
Yes there is a rip off model in the cayman and a real dog in the V6 version of the cayenne,these things aside the company still makes fantastic cars.
Sometimes i wonder if they should start using L LX GLX insignia on the back of the 911.
Yes there is a rip off model in the cayman and a real dog in the V6 version of the cayenne,these things aside the company still makes fantastic cars.
Porsche production has mushroomed in recent years, (although the dreaded Cayenne accounts for nearly half) - but that's purely a result of customer demand.
Porsche don't build cars and then unload them into the market place. Every car is built to order.
And, the reason for Porsche's continued success is that the Boxster/Cayman, 997 and its derivatives are the best in class, well designed and engineered, easy to live with, reasonably priced and supported by a healthy used market.
We might grumble that Porsche has changed over the years, but that's progress, and Porsche clearly know their business.
Porsche don't build cars and then unload them into the market place. Every car is built to order.
And, the reason for Porsche's continued success is that the Boxster/Cayman, 997 and its derivatives are the best in class, well designed and engineered, easy to live with, reasonably priced and supported by a healthy used market.
We might grumble that Porsche has changed over the years, but that's progress, and Porsche clearly know their business.
Asterix said:
Having watched this - [url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?doc[/url] I have decided to postpone my forray into Porschedom.
I was going to wait until the 2008 model Caymen S (with a hopefull power upgrade) but after seeing the programme that Porsche have completely sold out. It's no longer about the purity of engineering.
I was going to wait until the 2008 model Caymen S (with a hopefull power upgrade) but after seeing the programme that Porsche have completely sold out. It's no longer about the purity of engineering.
That seems like a bizarre statement to me. As an engineer working for a small company I know that the business has to do 2 simple things otherwise I am out of a job. 1) Win contracts/orders 2) Make money on the contracts/orders. Porsche are better then anyone at doing this juggling act. They don't re-invent the wheel every time a new product is developed so they don't end up spending huge amounts on R&D and having to also loose all the profits on claims/recalls for what could be an unreliable product. Unlike the BMW/Audi/MB performance models they also have a unique product identity. The other marques always struggle with having to justify to the potential customer why their product is 20K more expensive then the 3 series, A4, C class or whaterver that it looks almost indentical to. Porsche on the other hand can charge another 15 or 20K again on top again and the customer doesn't feel ripped off.
Just look at the Z4 lineup. Practically every review I read of the Z4M quiestioned if it was really worth the extra expense over a more basic Z4, no review seemed to say its 15 grand or whatever cheaper then a 911 [or maybe I just read the wrong mags].
flemke said:
Davey S2 said:
Fat Americans who buy the Cayenne pay for tomorrow's GT3RS's
I know what you mean, but we're kidding ourselves if we think that Uncle Wendelin is taking advantage of suckers who buy Cayennes and Boxsters in order to subsidise his beloved special editions.
For more than two years they dragged their feet to confirm production of the CGT, until they had enough indications of interest to ensure its profitability.
The difference between the RS and the standard GT3: a perspex rear window, a single mass flywheel and a basic rear wing that were developed eight years ago, and some go-faster livery? I'd say that an extra £14 grand a pop ought to cover it, wouldn't you (for an unlimited build run, no less)?
The GT3 itself: an engine that's many years old in a car that is a modified Carrera, of which in its life they will sell at least 150,000. And the GT3 is £20 grand dearer than the C2.
A racing programme that it totally, 100% paid for directly by the racing customers, everything from the RS Spyder to RSR to Cup car.
Americans may not have the best taste in cars, but anyone, from American hick to European sophisticate (
) who buys any new Porsche is paying his own freight. Porsche may make some of the best cars, but these days they're also the tightest carmaker in the world, and don't give away anything just to be nice.
Finally, someone else that disputes the notion that Porsche produces cars for the mass market purely in order to finance playful and car-mad oompah loompahs in the engineering department that are kept in a basement producing CGTs and GT3s, for free or at a loss, to keep a few die-hards happy.
Minor disagreement with you that Boxster buyers are suckers - I rate the car, but otherwise spot on. Wiedeking has been quoted several times as saying that nothing passes down an assembly line at Porsche unless it makes money. Thus, everything being rolled out the doors at Porsche's final assembly; be it a made to order race car, a CGT or a GT3RS is making Porsche money. No oompah loompahs, no 'gifts' for the enthusiasts, no mad financing of daft models to make anyone feel good about anything. If it ain't paid, it ain't made.
satans worm said:
flemke said:
I know what you mean, but we're kidding ourselves if we think that Uncle Wendelin is taking advantage of suckers who buy Cayennes and Boxsters in order to subsidise his beloved special editions.
Flemke
Why do you think people who buy Boxsters are suckers?? or am I reading your post wrongly?
I don't at all think that people who buy Boxsters are suckers. Boxsters are good cars. Rather, I was alluding to the fact that some people do seem to think that, and assert that only the rear-engined cars are true P.'s.
I do think that Boxsters are overpriced, but, then again, all Porsches are overpriced when you consider that P. has the biggest profit margins in the industry. You'd think that they could give back a tad of that 29% margin!
Edited by flemke on Monday 11th December 13:31
For me, the single best feature in each and every Porsche Post is Mike Cotton's insight into Porsche AG and its activities. This alone encourages me to keep up my subscription to the club. Mike's quite open about Porsche's attempts to make a go of the RS Spyder. According to him (and I see no reason to disbelieve him) they are having trouble finding buyers for the car. I'm not surprised given its ticket price and patchy racing history thus far...that, and the fact that it is never going to be permitted (by the ACO) to win Le Mans. Perhaps this is Porche's first "loss leader" this century that will not make money in time?...
BTW spot on with your comments on the GT3 RS Flemke - but do you think that will stop people buying them in their hundreds?....
BTW spot on with your comments on the GT3 RS Flemke - but do you think that will stop people buying them in their hundreds?....
loach said:
Minor disagreement with you that Boxster buyers are suckers - I rate the car, but otherwise spot on. Wiedeking has been quoted several times as saying that nothing passes down an assembly line at Porsche unless it makes money. Thus, everything being rolled out the doors at Porsche's final assembly; be it a made to order race car, a CGT or a GT3RS is making Porsche money. No oompah loompahs, no 'gifts' for the enthusiasts, no mad financing of daft models to make anyone feel good about anything. If it ain't paid, it ain't made.
Dead right - the price of independence. Not long ago it was supposedly in the balance. I'd love to know the real "family" balance of shareholding - with VW/AUDI tossed in too. All very complicated. Fascinating to look at Porsche and BMW as market-listed manufacturers still controlled by families.
I think the biggest problem with Porsche today is simply VOLUME.
They're building too many cars.... TOO MANY..... and the reason they're building what I deem to be too many is because their cars are fantastic.
Say what you like about the Cayenne but it's the best handling 4X4 ever. The Boxster is just FANTASTIC to drive - it's good at EVERYTHING. The Cayman is even better, the 911 is perfect and the Carrera GT (although tricky) is a masterpiece.
Their products ROCK! Everyone wants one, everyone buys one, and they keep building them. It sounds perverse (given that I'm not a rich man) but I think they don't make ENOUGH on some of their cars. It's my suspicion that even if they added 20% to the cost of the 911 Porsche would lose customers but that would be offset by the increased margins.... (that's my theory at least). They'd GAIN. The 997TT would sell all day long at a basic of £115,000 -
What Porsche don't make anymore are SPECIALS.... 911 Turbo S in the the style of the 965, a proper 996GT2 like the 993, a true club sport Cayman, a 997RS which weighs 100kg less than the GT3. Their products carry the same badges as 10 years ago but are softer (except the CGT).... couple that with the general "crapness" of the competition and the Porsche is car of choice for EVERYONE who can remotely afford one.....no problem with that at all but it's making the cars too ubiquitous - I think we've already seen the end of them as a "specialist sports car manufacturer." They're not - they're a car manufacturer equivalent to Mercedes and BMW not Ferrari and Lamborghini. And that's a crying shame.
Watch Ferrari head the same way...they'll be where Porsche is now in about 10 years (perhaps without a Ferrari Cayenne
)...... I'm shocked by how anodyne and sythentic their latest products are becoming in an effort to make them useable (what Porsche did in the mid/late 90's) and the "relatively" huge number of them on the road. I sometimes have to remember when I walk past the 8th 430 Spider I've seen on a crap street in London that it's a £140,000 car!
They're building too many cars.... TOO MANY..... and the reason they're building what I deem to be too many is because their cars are fantastic.
Say what you like about the Cayenne but it's the best handling 4X4 ever. The Boxster is just FANTASTIC to drive - it's good at EVERYTHING. The Cayman is even better, the 911 is perfect and the Carrera GT (although tricky) is a masterpiece.
Their products ROCK! Everyone wants one, everyone buys one, and they keep building them. It sounds perverse (given that I'm not a rich man) but I think they don't make ENOUGH on some of their cars. It's my suspicion that even if they added 20% to the cost of the 911 Porsche would lose customers but that would be offset by the increased margins.... (that's my theory at least). They'd GAIN. The 997TT would sell all day long at a basic of £115,000 -
What Porsche don't make anymore are SPECIALS.... 911 Turbo S in the the style of the 965, a proper 996GT2 like the 993, a true club sport Cayman, a 997RS which weighs 100kg less than the GT3. Their products carry the same badges as 10 years ago but are softer (except the CGT).... couple that with the general "crapness" of the competition and the Porsche is car of choice for EVERYONE who can remotely afford one.....no problem with that at all but it's making the cars too ubiquitous - I think we've already seen the end of them as a "specialist sports car manufacturer." They're not - they're a car manufacturer equivalent to Mercedes and BMW not Ferrari and Lamborghini. And that's a crying shame.
Watch Ferrari head the same way...they'll be where Porsche is now in about 10 years (perhaps without a Ferrari Cayenne
)...... I'm shocked by how anodyne and sythentic their latest products are becoming in an effort to make them useable (what Porsche did in the mid/late 90's) and the "relatively" huge number of them on the road. I sometimes have to remember when I walk past the 8th 430 Spider I've seen on a crap street in London that it's a £140,000 car! Edited by murcielago_boy on Tuesday 12th December 16:16
flemke said:
I do think that Boxsters are overpriced, but, then again, all Porsches are overpriced when you consider that P. has the biggest profit margins in the industry. You'd think that they could give back a tad of that 29% margin!
To offer a contrary opinion I think the Boxster is the only car NOT over-priced in the range (and maybe the V6 Cayenne which are crap). Cayman is £5k over-priced and should be less than Boxster. The base 911 lives off its legend by charging a 50% premium over a 987S for what? A 5-10% increase in parts costs? But its the enhanced 911 variants that take the biscuit - i mean how much more does the lesser but still hardly bespoke GT1 block for the TT/GT cars cost over the std one? Nothing like the mark up charged. AS prices increases the law of diminshing returns applies to VFM - as flemke mentions the RS is humourously priced but take a bow the GT2. Fabulous car no doubt but a frankly laughable £35k premium over a TT for some trick brakes, a few suspension tweaks and CF panels a with cheaper 2wd and way less toys?
Not slagging any other than above cars as they are all great. And lets face it we keep buying them so Porsche kep chuckling all the way to the bank.
I agree - £ for £ the Boxster is probably Porsche's best value product.
When it was launched in 1997, a base 2.5 '986' Boxster was £33,950 and quickly earned its class leading reputation for being the world's best roadster.
10 years later a 2.7 '987' Boxster, with even better performance, dynamics and specification, is only £33,170
It seems everone's a winner - Porsche and its associates make big profits, and the customer gets a terrific product at a great price.
Sounds like the perfect business plan
And the new GT3's not a bad effort either
When it was launched in 1997, a base 2.5 '986' Boxster was £33,950 and quickly earned its class leading reputation for being the world's best roadster.
10 years later a 2.7 '987' Boxster, with even better performance, dynamics and specification, is only £33,170
It seems everone's a winner - Porsche and its associates make big profits, and the customer gets a terrific product at a great price.
Sounds like the perfect business plan
And the new GT3's not a bad effort either
Edited by Geneve on Tuesday 12th December 18:35
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