correcting tailslide (real world)
Discussion
Excluding track antics, and considering front-engined rear-wheel drive cars, when the tail steps out is the correct thing to do
1) apply judicious opposite lock and lift off accelerator
2) apply opposite lock and keep accelerator steady
3) apply opposite lock and floor it?
4) other?
On the few occasions its happened to me Ive done 1) and the car has always corrected itself. But forum opinion appears to differ...
and whichever option is correct, does it equally apply to rear-engined rwd cars (that dont have pasm)
1) apply judicious opposite lock and lift off accelerator
2) apply opposite lock and keep accelerator steady
3) apply opposite lock and floor it?
4) other?
On the few occasions its happened to me Ive done 1) and the car has always corrected itself. But forum opinion appears to differ...
and whichever option is correct, does it equally apply to rear-engined rwd cars (that dont have pasm)
Edited by softinthehead on Wednesday 22 November 17:14
Somebody cleverer will will long soon to explain how it all depends but in my (limited) real life track experience in my 944 and 968 I found 2 felt better than 1 though I usually got away with 1. I haven't tried 3 on anything bigger than a kart where it seemed to work OK.
Actually come to think of it I think I did try 3 in my 944 turbo and the rear wheels started spining and feeling like they were steering the car in a v strange way on exiting a chicane -
Well.
Tricky.
I've found in an old MX-5 I had that lifting off a touch and turning opposite lock had the effect of the whole car coming to a stop sideways in the raod.
Flooring it at the same time flared the car a bit and gave you the momentum to pull out of the skid.
My 3.2 Carrera had the effect that if you lifted off in an oversteer moment then it would bite you in the ass big time, and you would exit this world backwards with no control.
So in rear engine rear drive I say lift off and IMMEDIATELY APPLY A JUDICIOUS AMOUNT OF OPP LOCK, and then floor it as soon as the car has snapped straight.
I have to say that assuming no other ESP or electonic systems on board, I hate this happening to me on the road!!
Last time this happened to me in the 3.2 at the track I still got it wrong, lifted off, got a huge tank slapper or when I kept over correcting it, and eventually I had built up enough pendulum effect to and fro that I could not keep it in line, and spun about 4 times exiting the track backwards!!
I know from experience that I should have floored it to stabilise the whole thing!!
Good luck, and fill out that life insurance form!!
Tricky.
I've found in an old MX-5 I had that lifting off a touch and turning opposite lock had the effect of the whole car coming to a stop sideways in the raod.
Flooring it at the same time flared the car a bit and gave you the momentum to pull out of the skid.
My 3.2 Carrera had the effect that if you lifted off in an oversteer moment then it would bite you in the ass big time, and you would exit this world backwards with no control.
So in rear engine rear drive I say lift off and IMMEDIATELY APPLY A JUDICIOUS AMOUNT OF OPP LOCK, and then floor it as soon as the car has snapped straight.
I have to say that assuming no other ESP or electonic systems on board, I hate this happening to me on the road!!
Last time this happened to me in the 3.2 at the track I still got it wrong, lifted off, got a huge tank slapper or when I kept over correcting it, and eventually I had built up enough pendulum effect to and fro that I could not keep it in line, and spun about 4 times exiting the track backwards!!
I know from experience that I should have floored it to stabilise the whole thing!!
Good luck, and fill out that life insurance form!!
I've been *ahem* experimenting with this in my 3 series today, given the lovely conditions we are having it would be rude not, especially since I had to see a client out in rural oxfordshire...
I usually instinctively back off the throttle completely and apply opposite lock. However, this method proves abit too abrubt at times and the tails snaps the other way.
I have tried feathering the throttle and this improves the problem. However, I have only managed to do this when I was actively looking to slide the car when the road was wide and clear.
I usually instinctively back off the throttle completely and apply opposite lock. However, this method proves abit too abrubt at times and the tails snaps the other way.
I have tried feathering the throttle and this improves the problem. However, I have only managed to do this when I was actively looking to slide the car when the road was wide and clear.
The reason a front engined rear wheel drive car oversteers is that you have entered the corner too fast or applied too much power when in the corner or a bit of both! So, the correct answer is 1) apply opposite lock and gently reduce the power. Its really everything in moderation and "feel" what the car is doing.
It would be the same on a track but you may decide to take higher risks and reduce the power less. Of course, you may spin!!!
Experiment on track and have fun.
Cheers,
richard.
It would be the same on a track but you may decide to take higher risks and reduce the power less. Of course, you may spin!!!
Experiment on track and have fun.
Cheers,
richard.
I agree - in the real world the road is too small and dangerous a place to be a hooligan.
I found the same as Dino in my mates M3 - backing off the throttle makes the car snap back too abruptly.
Difficult to say as its a scenario I don't wish to experience on a crowded road in my own car, so tend to try to avoid it!!
I found the same as Dino in my mates M3 - backing off the throttle makes the car snap back too abruptly.
Difficult to say as its a scenario I don't wish to experience on a crowded road in my own car, so tend to try to avoid it!!
968csreading said:
The few times I have lost it I just reacted in time and did the right thing to make sure I corrected the slide or stayed out of the hedge.
Cant really remember what I did apart from clench my butt cheeks
Cant really remember what I did apart from clench my butt cheeks
There we have the definative car control lesson.....
Grip that sports seat between your buttocks extra hard, grip the wheel even harder with sweaty hands, shut eyes, open them again when you think it's safe....
My wife does this all the time (no jokes) and the result is four perfectly kerbed alloy wheels. Not a nice original part on them.
agree. it does happen quick when it happens. I had a mild skid on some wet leaves going through a 90 degree bend this weekend, very slowly thankfully (under 20mph). I suspect that since it was the leaves that caused the slide it probably mattered very little what I did but on previous occasions, having lifted off the throttle, Ive always been a bit alarmed by the violence of the snap back. presumably a little lift rather than removing foot altogether would produce a more graceful return to normality?
softinthehead said:
agree. it does happen quick when it happens. I had a mild skid on some wet leaves going through a 90 degree bend this weekend, very slowly thankfully (under 20mph). I suspect that since it was the leaves that caused the slide it probably mattered very little what I did but on previous occasions, having lifted off the throttle, Ive always been a bit alarmed by the violence of the snap back. presumably a little lift rather than removing foot altogether would produce a more graceful return to normality?
Hell, it could do...
Try it and let me know what happens!!
PLEASE SIGN DISCLAIMER STATING DRYBEER HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT BEFORE YOU GO BACKWARDS (OR FORWARDS) INTO SOMETHING YOU SHOULD BE TRYING NOT TO HIT
It depends on so many things...
The first advice is to be quick (I mean really quick) with the steering wheel. If you can notice the slide when it *really* starts to develop, a quick flick of the steering wheel should be all that is required, on a steady throttle.
If you notice the slide when it is already well underway, then it can only be corrected with the throttle well in, to maintain wheelspin, because if you do not, the back end will swing back the other way when the rear wheels regain grip.
Between these two extremes, you have to turn into the slide on slightly reduced power, wait for the car to settle and bring the car back in line.
If it is on entry into a corner, then a quick flick of the wheel and help of the abs could sort you out; alternatively, a gentle application of power (if you can find road space) will stop the slide (by transfering mass to the rear wheels) and stabilise the car
The first advice is to be quick (I mean really quick) with the steering wheel. If you can notice the slide when it *really* starts to develop, a quick flick of the steering wheel should be all that is required, on a steady throttle.
If you notice the slide when it is already well underway, then it can only be corrected with the throttle well in, to maintain wheelspin, because if you do not, the back end will swing back the other way when the rear wheels regain grip.
Between these two extremes, you have to turn into the slide on slightly reduced power, wait for the car to settle and bring the car back in line.
If it is on entry into a corner, then a quick flick of the wheel and help of the abs could sort you out; alternatively, a gentle application of power (if you can find road space) will stop the slide (by transfering mass to the rear wheels) and stabilise the car
cuneus said:
Don't forget to unwind the opposite lock when the slide is corrected (or possibly a bit before)
Indeed, unwinding the lock as the car straightens help reduce the chance of it snapping the other.
As a yoof, my very first taste of overtsteer in a RWD car say me not unwinding the lock in time which promptly sent me into another slide causing a massive tank slapper and saw me going off the road and down a grass embankment...No damage but it was embarrassing having to call a tow-truck and explain the situation...
Usually you'll need to get out of throttle at least a little bit because it's probably too much throttle causing the rear wheels to spin and thereby lose both forward and lateral traction that caused the problem in the first place. But the adjustment needs to be small because a big adjustment will a shift weight onto the front wheels making it even harder for the rear wheels to regain their grip. Unless you really overcooked the bend or floored the throttle the slide will start small so a small adjustment makes all sorts of sense. Too big an adjustment results in the weight shifting and engine braking; if you combine that with rear suspension geometry changes such as on earlier 911's or pre Z axle 3 series cars, to name 2, its going to be tricky indeed to keep it pointing forward. The opposite lock helps you get the car pointed and moving in the right direction again.
Find a safe place to practice; a wet track day is great for learning car control.
Find a safe place to practice; a wet track day is great for learning car control.
cuneus said:
Don't forget to unwind the opposite lock when the slide is corrected (or possibly a bit before)
Edited by cuneus on Wednesday 22 November 17:42
I think you mean unwind the lock AS the slide is corrected, ie ease the go pedal as you wind the opposite lock off
Remember that the commonest reason your car oversteering is due to either weight transfer or a heavy right foot (or both)
Lifting your foot of the gas pedal gently effectively gives the rear tyres another chance to grip (unless you've totally overcooked it) in which case you're going to be doing a high speed off road parking experiment irrespective of what you do
) Thus when you rapidly take your foot off the throttle the tyres grip can rapidly be regained, that's when the fishtailing begins.........
Having recently spent a day, with an instructor on an airfield, working on this particular skill, I have the following comments to make:
1. This is a tricky subject to "teach yourself" it's far safer to learn from an experienced driving coach on an airfield or proving ground, (where you can spin your brains out and not hit anything)
2. More or less throttle depends on why the slide started in the first place.
If you gave it too much gas exiting a corner, then backing off will help the car grip
If you induced the slide on a trailing throttle, then a touch (just a little) of gas will help.
3. Assuming you have successfully applied opposite lock and caught the skid, as soon as the car starts to grip again, you must get the steering STRAIGHT. If you don't you will fishtail and quite probably crash.
Andy Walsh (Carlimits) has been doing his best to teach me (a thankless task) and I would recommend him to anyone. There are a number of other instructors / coaches who have also received good reviews on PH. IMHO the key things are instruction and the space to practice, a DIY approach to learning this particular skill is unlikely to be anywhere near as effective.
M
1. This is a tricky subject to "teach yourself" it's far safer to learn from an experienced driving coach on an airfield or proving ground, (where you can spin your brains out and not hit anything)
2. More or less throttle depends on why the slide started in the first place.
If you gave it too much gas exiting a corner, then backing off will help the car grip
If you induced the slide on a trailing throttle, then a touch (just a little) of gas will help.
3. Assuming you have successfully applied opposite lock and caught the skid, as soon as the car starts to grip again, you must get the steering STRAIGHT. If you don't you will fishtail and quite probably crash.
Andy Walsh (Carlimits) has been doing his best to teach me (a thankless task) and I would recommend him to anyone. There are a number of other instructors / coaches who have also received good reviews on PH. IMHO the key things are instruction and the space to practice, a DIY approach to learning this particular skill is unlikely to be anywhere near as effective.
M
PhilRS said:
If you notice the slide when it is already well underway, then it can only be corrected with the throttle well in, to maintain wheelspin, because if you do not, the back end will swing back the other way when the rear wheels regain grip.
Just go steady on that one. The result of applying lots of power will probably be the car spinning round on it`s self. You need to lift off and balance the throttle. Yes, when we are drifting (on private ground and with lots of run off) you put the car into the set with the wheel on full opposite lock and then control the slide with the throttle. If the back end grips you boot it but if you start to slide past the point of no return you back off a touch.
The car snaps on correction because you are too slow in winding off the corrective lock. In drifting you actually predict what the car is going to do and steer accordingly a little earlier to prevent being spat out the other end.
Think about it the back end comes out to the right you turn into the slide (ie to the right). The rear wheels get some grip, your car behaves normally again and thinks oh, he wants to turn right, no problem here we go. You then have to steer into the new slide and so it goes on until you crash because you`re always half a step behind the car.
If the back end steps out it will almost always because you are too heavy on the gas and you need to lift off to save spinning round. It`s a very hard thing to get right, I`m still learning and I`ve had a bit of practical experience of facing the wrong way !
Certainly do not try to learn these skills on the road. It will end in tears I guarantee you. You also need to be really relaxed when you are learning to feel the car and be able to pre-empt what`s happening rather than react with arms flailing inside the car as you see the kerb / tree / roadsign / other traffic / house / river or B&Q superstore approaching from a funny angle.
Keep between the white lines
Henry
I've only had one big weave in the luvverly 3.3, turning left onto a wet road with a bit too much throttle. The turbo spooling up doesn't really help in this situation
Actually I've also done this in an old 2.5 E30 too. E30 required lightening quick steering to correct. The pork gradually fishtailed more and more so I just stuck the clutch in when it was straight and all was fine.
Actually I've also done this in an old 2.5 E30 too. E30 required lightening quick steering to correct. The pork gradually fishtailed more and more so I just stuck the clutch in when it was straight and all was fine.
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