Manual Premium Over Auto?
Discussion
Had lunch with a couple of friends yesterday, one of whom had recently bought a 991.2S Manual, which he and the other friend, a retired ex-specialist car dealer were discussing.
He said that he’d struggled to find a nice ‘manual’ and those he did find were more expensive than the PDK. The ex-dealer said that will become more of an issue in the future, as the mass market will spec ‘auto’ new and, the manual cars, albeit with a dedicated following, will be small in proportion, so good ones will be more sought after.
He cited examples of Manual v Tiptronic and older PDKs with potentially high failure costs. And today he sent me this evidence.
Paragon Ad: Two identical 997.2 GTSs. Both 2011/11. Both White. Both same spec.
- The one with PDK and lower 36k mls - £65k
- The one with 6-Spd Manual and 41k mls - £80k
Personally, I hope Porsche do keep offering the Manual option.
He said that he’d struggled to find a nice ‘manual’ and those he did find were more expensive than the PDK. The ex-dealer said that will become more of an issue in the future, as the mass market will spec ‘auto’ new and, the manual cars, albeit with a dedicated following, will be small in proportion, so good ones will be more sought after.
He cited examples of Manual v Tiptronic and older PDKs with potentially high failure costs. And today he sent me this evidence.
Paragon Ad: Two identical 997.2 GTSs. Both 2011/11. Both White. Both same spec.
- The one with PDK and lower 36k mls - £65k
- The one with 6-Spd Manual and 41k mls - £80k
Personally, I hope Porsche do keep offering the Manual option.
I have always thought this, but then thought as we all die off will the manuals then tank in value as the new generation won t know how to drive a manual? Can t work it out, personally I m all in on manuals but when do you think the cut off will be, 20 more years before people won t know how to drive a manual full stop, then these just become museum pieces for the future? What are the Driving Schools forecasting?
It isn’t just about knowing how to drive a manual, why would it appeal to young drivers coming through?
They will look at the numbers, slower, less fuel efficient, worse emissions etc. They have nothing to offset that with as many of us have having grown up with manuals - memories of great times/drives gone by.
Sadly we will are all destined to be driving around in milk floats, albeit quick ones, whether we want to or not.
They will look at the numbers, slower, less fuel efficient, worse emissions etc. They have nothing to offset that with as many of us have having grown up with manuals - memories of great times/drives gone by.
Sadly we will are all destined to be driving around in milk floats, albeit quick ones, whether we want to or not.
I think it also depends on what the car is used for. If it's a fun only car, then manual makes a lot of sense. However, as a do it all car, most will want auto.
I have recently realised that my current car does not excite me enough to warrant being a fun car, mostly as the gearbox makes going fast too uneventful. It's great for it's intended purposes of being a GT, but it's not enough fun at road speeds for an early morning drive. Obvious in hindsight..... But the thing that made me realise was driving a new MX5 with just a 130hp, but a sweet little manual box.
I have recently realised that my current car does not excite me enough to warrant being a fun car, mostly as the gearbox makes going fast too uneventful. It's great for it's intended purposes of being a GT, but it's not enough fun at road speeds for an early morning drive. Obvious in hindsight..... But the thing that made me realise was driving a new MX5 with just a 130hp, but a sweet little manual box.
As cars age the two things that in my mind really date them are a) the transmission (if it’s not an manual0 and b) the SatNav (PCM in Porsche speak). The latter is easily solved with an iPhone.
If you want a sports car as a fun car to drive on a Sunday morning do you really want a Tiptronic or early PDK gearbox in it that is worse than your daily driver ?
When I bought my manual 997.2 GTS in 2016 they were at that stage maybe £2k cheaper than a PDK car. PDK cars have barely moved since. Sold mine a couple of years ago through RPM.
If you want a sports car as a fun car to drive on a Sunday morning do you really want a Tiptronic or early PDK gearbox in it that is worse than your daily driver ?
When I bought my manual 997.2 GTS in 2016 they were at that stage maybe £2k cheaper than a PDK car. PDK cars have barely moved since. Sold mine a couple of years ago through RPM.
I guess she these cars are newish, people want a warranty, especially if the car is financed. You can then have all the stuff that can go wrong like your PDK, PDCC, PADM, PTV etc.
Beyond the warranty period, these become cars for the high days and you’d buy on condition, look for a manual and perhaps avoid too many techy options. Look at manual v F1 gearbox in Ferraris.
Beyond the warranty period, these become cars for the high days and you’d buy on condition, look for a manual and perhaps avoid too many techy options. Look at manual v F1 gearbox in Ferraris.
SkinnyPete said:
This is the type of game you can never win.
Part ex a manual to a dealer "oh nobody wants them, they aren't very popular, so we'll have to lowball you".
Yet when you go to buy from a dealer "the manual is super rare, which is why it's more than the auto".
yeah trying to sell to a dealer always fun. I tried to trade in my car for another one. Basically paying cash now, because "we don't believe the current asking prices of cars, so can't pay anything close to that for your car", but "no can't give you more discount on asking price than x, because that would be too little for the car"Part ex a manual to a dealer "oh nobody wants them, they aren't very popular, so we'll have to lowball you".
Yet when you go to buy from a dealer "the manual is super rare, which is why it's more than the auto".
ok then....
SkinnyPete said:
This is the type of game you can never win.
Part ex a manual to a dealer "oh nobody wants them, they aren't very popular, so we'll have to lowball you".
Yet when you go to buy from a dealer "the manual is super rare, which is why it's more than the auto".
I agree 100% that this is the relationship with dealers!!!Part ex a manual to a dealer "oh nobody wants them, they aren't very popular, so we'll have to lowball you".
Yet when you go to buy from a dealer "the manual is super rare, which is why it's more than the auto".
Also, Cheib has a good point. The automated technology moves on, whereas a manual remains what it is.
I think folks overthink this manual vs auto thing. Unless you're driving the car on deserted roads in Wales or Scotland, a manual Porsche is a PITA 90% the time, fantastic 5% of the time and meh the other 5%. That's my experience anyway. The manual gearing is too long for our British roads, so one can barely get out of 3rd to exploit the 4k + rpm powerband.
Ok, I live in London, so it's a bit different compared to most. But I recently datalogged a 30-minute journey of approximately 12 miles, a mix of slow and ring road traffic with a speed limit of 50 mph. My average rpm in my 986 3.2 Tip was 1400 rpm. Given that the car is capable of peak rpms of 7200, I'm barely touching the sides.
The challenge is not manual vs auto, it's the roads, the policing, and traffic. 99% of the time, auto is better unless you track the thing.
Ok, I live in London, so it's a bit different compared to most. But I recently datalogged a 30-minute journey of approximately 12 miles, a mix of slow and ring road traffic with a speed limit of 50 mph. My average rpm in my 986 3.2 Tip was 1400 rpm. Given that the car is capable of peak rpms of 7200, I'm barely touching the sides.
The challenge is not manual vs auto, it's the roads, the policing, and traffic. 99% of the time, auto is better unless you track the thing.
maz8062 said:
I think folks overthink this manual vs auto thing. Unless you're driving the car on deserted roads in Wales or Scotland, a manual Porsche is a PITA 90% the time, fantastic 5% of the time and meh the other 5%. That's my experience anyway. The manual gearing is too long for our British roads, so one can barely get out of 3rd to exploit the 4k + rpm powerband.
Ok, I live in London, so it's a bit different compared to most. But I recently datalogged a 30-minute journey of approximately 12 miles, a mix of slow and ring road traffic with a speed limit of 50 mph. My average rpm in my 986 3.2 Tip was 1400 rpm. Given that the car is capable of peak rpms of 7200, I'm barely touching the sides.
The challenge is not manual vs auto, it's the roads, the policing, and traffic. 99% of the time, auto is better unless you track the thing.
If you live in London (or any big city), you're already at a big disadvantage with a manual gearbox. Up in North Yorkshire, I rarely get stuck in big traffic so much more fun to be had on a trip anywhere, although I don't commute anymore so maybe I'm an exception, but for example, there are 17 997.2 Carrera S for sale, only 2 are manual. With choices so limited, there is an argument for a slight premium which makes me happy as mine will hold it's value better...Ok, I live in London, so it's a bit different compared to most. But I recently datalogged a 30-minute journey of approximately 12 miles, a mix of slow and ring road traffic with a speed limit of 50 mph. My average rpm in my 986 3.2 Tip was 1400 rpm. Given that the car is capable of peak rpms of 7200, I'm barely touching the sides.
The challenge is not manual vs auto, it's the roads, the policing, and traffic. 99% of the time, auto is better unless you track the thing.
maz8062 said:
Unless you're driving the car on deserted roads in Wales or Scotland, a manual Porsche is a PITA 90% the time, fantastic 5% of the time and meh the other 5%.
maz8062 said:
The challenge is not manual vs auto, it's the roads, the policing, and traffic. 99% of the time, auto is better unless you track the thing
Personally, I prefer a manual 95% of the time, and that includes city use.Agree about UK roads.
Don’t necessarily agree about track.
I would pay a premium for manual if/when it comes to it.
Geneve said:
Personally, I prefer a manual 95% of the time, and that includes city use.
Agree about UK roads.
Don t necessarily agree about track.
I would pay a premium for manual if/when it comes to it.
me too (I commuted in London in a manual 355 for 2.5 years). I just bought a car with a single-clutch automated transmission, but would have preferred it to be manual - non for sale and way too expensive if there was one (so I guess that answers the value question to a degree)Agree about UK roads.
Don t necessarily agree about track.
I would pay a premium for manual if/when it comes to it.
On track I am actually indifferent, mainly due to lack of skills - one less thing to worry about. I stopped doing track days anyway though, so no longer relevant.
maz8062 said:
I think folks overthink this manual vs auto thing. Unless you're driving the car on deserted roads in Wales or Scotland, a manual Porsche is a PITA 90% the time, fantastic 5% of the time and meh the other 5%.
This is objectively false. Lots of good driving to be done. In the south of England. With little to no policing. I think some people must never leave large conurbations / A roads.There are countless B roads and white roads with little traffic and pretty much zero policing. I live in a population centre of 100k people, fastest train to London about an hour and a quarter. IE, not remote. Within 15 mins of my front door is a 40 minute loop that I get a mostly clean run on more often than not and I've never seen any policing on it in 15 years. Which isn't surprising, because the police simply do not have the resources to cover roads like that and, likewise, you don't find cameras on those kinds of roads. Not enough traffic to justify the installation costs.
Of course, there are busy B roads too. And if you're in London or close to the M25, it's mostly going to be a s
tshow. But there really is an awful lot of great driving to be had across the south of England (and further north too, more so if anything, but the south often seems to be considered a non starter) for anyone who makes even a cursory effort to get out of town and stay off A roads.I wonder if we are a typical audience / sample for this question to be objectively answered ?
There are manuals and manuals ... 901 / 915 / G50 / and then all the water-cooled car manual boxes which I never knew the codes for ...
The synchro's on the early 996.1 GT3 gearboxes were weak, the steels were much better, the seven speed manual didn't gain many plaudits and the latest six speed gearbox is a peach ... so what is it that "we" like ?
I would say that it's the complete gear change process ... pedal weight / flywheel effect / pedal positions for clutch, brake and accelerator ... and then there is the learning of the car and the black magic of double de-clutching / heel and toe / and the tactility and joy of "getting it right". And the bragging rights ?
So a question ... below what age do these things really become less significant with screens / switches / toggles / thumb wheels taking over for their tactility / getting it right / bragging rights ?? And at what point will the young no longer aspire to taking a manual driving test ?
At what point did 80% of Porsche sales become PDK which was launched 15 years ago and really is very very good ??
The youngsters in the main are not buying Porsche GT cars ... they are too busy affording a mortgage / holiday and trying to have as much fun as possible with as little cash as they can ... but look how few miles the old "rockers" in general are doing in their manual cars ??
How long can the manual gearbox continue to be sold and at what price point ?
We "rockers" are a dying breed ... so maybe at a point there could be massive oversupply of manual cars ??
There are manuals and manuals ... 901 / 915 / G50 / and then all the water-cooled car manual boxes which I never knew the codes for ...
The synchro's on the early 996.1 GT3 gearboxes were weak, the steels were much better, the seven speed manual didn't gain many plaudits and the latest six speed gearbox is a peach ... so what is it that "we" like ?
I would say that it's the complete gear change process ... pedal weight / flywheel effect / pedal positions for clutch, brake and accelerator ... and then there is the learning of the car and the black magic of double de-clutching / heel and toe / and the tactility and joy of "getting it right". And the bragging rights ?
So a question ... below what age do these things really become less significant with screens / switches / toggles / thumb wheels taking over for their tactility / getting it right / bragging rights ?? And at what point will the young no longer aspire to taking a manual driving test ?
At what point did 80% of Porsche sales become PDK which was launched 15 years ago and really is very very good ??
The youngsters in the main are not buying Porsche GT cars ... they are too busy affording a mortgage / holiday and trying to have as much fun as possible with as little cash as they can ... but look how few miles the old "rockers" in general are doing in their manual cars ??
How long can the manual gearbox continue to be sold and at what price point ?
We "rockers" are a dying breed ... so maybe at a point there could be massive oversupply of manual cars ??
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