Porsche Arrogance?
Discussion
It seems Porsche are increasing their prices on a quarterly basis, especially on classics. The issue I'm seeing is the overall quality; it's not as good as it once was (when the parts were cheaper).
For example, a 993 rear windscreen used to be around £580 leading up to the pandemic. They're now well north of £1k to buy. Cost of raw materials, war, scandal, blah, blah and bloody blah. At least give us the same quality! I'm having issues with 996 windscreens, rubber products for air-cooled and even the hardware on windscreens in general is just a bit lacking (a one year-old 992 with the mirror bracket coming unstuck!).
If I have an issue with any of these now enthusiastically priced items, I can return it, right? Well, it's not so straight forward. Germany will kick it back and say it's down to the installer. Their view is that if the job came through one of their workshops, a technician raises a 'ticket' and files a 'DMR' report with images etc. They will then investigate. Considering that I am the sub contractor specialist, why dismiss my returned faulty items at the trade counter?
Several years ago there was an issue with 993 rear windscreens where the soldered on terminals just fell off. You only had to look at them wrong and they would come off. When receiving one from PGB I would just apply a little bit of pressure (about the same as you would to push a spade connector on with) and wallop; off it would come. There was even one with the terminal missing - it had fallen off in transit and was lying at the bottom of the box when we opened it). I rejected about four windscreens before I got a good one. Germany's stance was that the installer must have been doing something wrong. The trade parts counter had to write that stock off as Porsche Germany were simply not interested.
Something similar happened with a 997 windscreen where the silkprint (the black frit around the windscreen) faded to reveal a transparent section on the A-pillar (two years after fitting). Porsche Germany didn't want to know (as the windscreen was not replaced at an OPC) and even asking the warranty guy at OPC was futile as there was no record of the windscreen being fitted by them. Even if there was, it would have been ME that fitted it! I will always honour my guarantee to my customer, but it's me getting shafted when these issues arise. Having a relationship with the (trade) parts counter means that they will make sure I get as much business as they can give me (well, I'm the specialist and I get that work anyway) and I'll get an extra bit of discount on my next couple of purchases.
If Porsche Germany are going to be this awkward about parts that don't live up to their name, why sell them to me in the first place? Why not tag them as OPC only! It's so arrogant. Yet, when they're in a pickle and the warranty memo says to repair 'using the most economical option' I should just order every conjunction item they recommend! But I don't, I often get them out of a hole because it is the right thing to do.
OE 996 windscreens now fit as badly as their non-branded aftermarket windscreens did which, I estimate, is the result of plants being consolidated and them keeping the wrong tooling or using the wrong blueprint.
Later 993 heated rear windscreens are put together so cheaply, you have to mess about with them before fitting (which is what you would do with a cheap pattern part).
OE 997 windscreens: the antenna is off-centre. It runs through the rain sensor mount and 2/3mm is okay. 5-10mm is unacceptable.
Rubber products. I've developed techniques to make them fit which usually means much more time than necessary. It's just not right. Kick it back to Germany and they point to the workshop. When it does go through the workshop, it's still me doing the fitting as the specialist subbie, and what's the result? They authorise a new part and the cost to fit it. Rinse and repeat. It;s just really poor from Porsche and very arrogant.
For example, a 993 rear windscreen used to be around £580 leading up to the pandemic. They're now well north of £1k to buy. Cost of raw materials, war, scandal, blah, blah and bloody blah. At least give us the same quality! I'm having issues with 996 windscreens, rubber products for air-cooled and even the hardware on windscreens in general is just a bit lacking (a one year-old 992 with the mirror bracket coming unstuck!).
If I have an issue with any of these now enthusiastically priced items, I can return it, right? Well, it's not so straight forward. Germany will kick it back and say it's down to the installer. Their view is that if the job came through one of their workshops, a technician raises a 'ticket' and files a 'DMR' report with images etc. They will then investigate. Considering that I am the sub contractor specialist, why dismiss my returned faulty items at the trade counter?
Several years ago there was an issue with 993 rear windscreens where the soldered on terminals just fell off. You only had to look at them wrong and they would come off. When receiving one from PGB I would just apply a little bit of pressure (about the same as you would to push a spade connector on with) and wallop; off it would come. There was even one with the terminal missing - it had fallen off in transit and was lying at the bottom of the box when we opened it). I rejected about four windscreens before I got a good one. Germany's stance was that the installer must have been doing something wrong. The trade parts counter had to write that stock off as Porsche Germany were simply not interested.
Something similar happened with a 997 windscreen where the silkprint (the black frit around the windscreen) faded to reveal a transparent section on the A-pillar (two years after fitting). Porsche Germany didn't want to know (as the windscreen was not replaced at an OPC) and even asking the warranty guy at OPC was futile as there was no record of the windscreen being fitted by them. Even if there was, it would have been ME that fitted it! I will always honour my guarantee to my customer, but it's me getting shafted when these issues arise. Having a relationship with the (trade) parts counter means that they will make sure I get as much business as they can give me (well, I'm the specialist and I get that work anyway) and I'll get an extra bit of discount on my next couple of purchases.
If Porsche Germany are going to be this awkward about parts that don't live up to their name, why sell them to me in the first place? Why not tag them as OPC only! It's so arrogant. Yet, when they're in a pickle and the warranty memo says to repair 'using the most economical option' I should just order every conjunction item they recommend! But I don't, I often get them out of a hole because it is the right thing to do.
OE 996 windscreens now fit as badly as their non-branded aftermarket windscreens did which, I estimate, is the result of plants being consolidated and them keeping the wrong tooling or using the wrong blueprint.
Later 993 heated rear windscreens are put together so cheaply, you have to mess about with them before fitting (which is what you would do with a cheap pattern part).
OE 997 windscreens: the antenna is off-centre. It runs through the rain sensor mount and 2/3mm is okay. 5-10mm is unacceptable.
Rubber products. I've developed techniques to make them fit which usually means much more time than necessary. It's just not right. Kick it back to Germany and they point to the workshop. When it does go through the workshop, it's still me doing the fitting as the specialist subbie, and what's the result? They authorise a new part and the cost to fit it. Rinse and repeat. It;s just really poor from Porsche and very arrogant.
Philvrs said:
Sad to read, as i was thinking about a replacement screen for my 996, and getting a “porsche” one was the advice i had read from the internet.
Hope its not just a sign of the times.
With a bit of jiggery pokery they will pass the mark but it's a bit of messing about. At a glance you will be okay with it, but if I drew your attention to the issue it's there to see. Hope its not just a sign of the times.
The OEM for the 996 front windscreen is Saint Gobain Sekurit. They also do a non-branded one but their manufacturer name is on there (much larger, bold font). The fit was so poor I would refuse to entertain them due to the time they took me to make look good/acceptable (but save the customer money - it wasn't an economical move for me). I insisted on OE, or go elsewhere.
The new OE windscreens have the same large, bold font. They fit just as poorly as the aftermarket ones I used to refuse.
Being an advocate and ambassador for OE parts, it now means I'm f
king about with inferior quality parts which is fundamentally wrong. I had the same with some interior door release mechanisms on a '73 2.4S.
The interior of the doors had been RS style lightweighted and the internal door opening mechanisms lost in the process. New mechanisms were ordered and fitted, and one of the linkages kept pinging off inside both doors when the door was closed ... so we had to drill and wire them to hold them in place ...
The interior of the doors had been RS style lightweighted and the internal door opening mechanisms lost in the process. New mechanisms were ordered and fitted, and one of the linkages kept pinging off inside both doors when the door was closed ... so we had to drill and wire them to hold them in place ...
ChrisW. said:
I had the same with some interior door release mechanisms on a '73 2.4S.
The interior of the doors had been RS style lightweighted and the internal door opening mechanisms lost in the process. New mechanisms were ordered and fitted, and one of the linkages kept pinging off inside both doors when the door was closed ... so we had to drill and wire them to hold them in place ...
No real surprise there Chris.The interior of the doors had been RS style lightweighted and the internal door opening mechanisms lost in the process. New mechanisms were ordered and fitted, and one of the linkages kept pinging off inside both doors when the door was closed ... so we had to drill and wire them to hold them in place ...
The majority of the Classic stuff they're producing is junk. As I've said on here before, 964 doors, junk. 964 front bumpers, junk.The early Bosch fuel pumps used on the MFi engines (two on the 2.8 RSR) junk.
The 9 x 15 Fuchs they released a batch of 15 years ago, junk.
Edited by Slippydiff on Friday 3rd May 09:52
so here is a link to Porsche's parts warranty
https://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/p...
It doesn't reference at any point that the part has to be installed within an OPC, in fact block exemption and the UK equivalent MVBEO specifically state that a part does not have to be fitted within an (in this case OPC) to have the same warranty as one that is fitted within an OPC. It does have to be fitted to the same standard and it does have to be fitted by a VAT registered garage ( or a garage capable of raising an invoice).
Porsche are a bit odd on their aftermarket strategy, with a desire to put all Porsches no matter how old through their workshops ( never going to happen) however this is actually against the law to refuse a warranty claim based on the fact it was fitted outside of a dealer. Yes you have to prove that you are of a competent standard, but it looks like you have to fight a bit harder and stand your ground. Porsche have to prove you did not install it properly, you do not have to prove that you did. You might want to remind them of their legal obligations, as well as taking a few photos of Porsche windscreen before collecting them from the OPC.
I take it you have to stand the cost of the replacement?
https://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/p...
It doesn't reference at any point that the part has to be installed within an OPC, in fact block exemption and the UK equivalent MVBEO specifically state that a part does not have to be fitted within an (in this case OPC) to have the same warranty as one that is fitted within an OPC. It does have to be fitted to the same standard and it does have to be fitted by a VAT registered garage ( or a garage capable of raising an invoice).
Porsche are a bit odd on their aftermarket strategy, with a desire to put all Porsches no matter how old through their workshops ( never going to happen) however this is actually against the law to refuse a warranty claim based on the fact it was fitted outside of a dealer. Yes you have to prove that you are of a competent standard, but it looks like you have to fight a bit harder and stand your ground. Porsche have to prove you did not install it properly, you do not have to prove that you did. You might want to remind them of their legal obligations, as well as taking a few photos of Porsche windscreen before collecting them from the OPC.
I take it you have to stand the cost of the replacement?
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
Porsche have to prove you did not install it properly, you do not have to prove that you did.
In theory, yes. In practice, they can simply decline blaming poor workmanship and then it's your call if you fancy it versus Porsche and potential escalating legal bills, stress and time invested over a windscreen or whatever should you attempt to assert your rights.Not very appealing, is it? I imagine if anyone does fight it and gets a settlement offer, it'll be without prejudice which you really would have to be in a crusading mood to reject. And there endeth the problem for Porsche.
jamsp00n said:
In theory, yes. In practice, they can simply decline blaming poor workmanship and then it's your call if you fancy it versus Porsche and potential escalating legal bills, stress and time invested over a windscreen or whatever should you attempt to assert your rights.
Not very appealing, is it? I imagine if anyone does fight it and gets a settlement offer, it'll be without prejudice which you really would have to be in a crusading mood to reject. And there endeth the problem for Porsche.
I doubt there'd be much in the way of legal bills.Not very appealing, is it? I imagine if anyone does fight it and gets a settlement offer, it'll be without prejudice which you really would have to be in a crusading mood to reject. And there endeth the problem for Porsche.
Porsche cannot refuse to have the part returned and a replacement sent out unless they can prove it was damaged. Ultimately the customer can make a complaint directly to Porsche CS.
The OP does subbie work for the OPC, so he is deemed of a competent standard.
However an additional thought did cross my mind and that is that is may just be the dealer themselves, not being arsed to complete a return for a windscreen. If I was the OP I'd make sure that I was speaking to the Parts Manager and not the Parts advisor.
Two things from me
1) I have enjoyed plenty of Fords 7, BMWs 28, 2 Nissans and 5 Volvos. The service from Porsche OPC is absolutely the worst I have ever seen since I could drive 34 years ago. Their arrogance is remarkable.
2) the quality of their current cars is shocking - 992 with numerous issues and has been in workshop 12 times in 18 months. Paint flaking of the interior door cards - sorry Sir not covered under your warranty.
Simply remarkable. Aspirational brand for me to which has let me down so badly. Normally when the product is poor you get the people who make up for it.
Not with Porsche. They simply could not give a …..
1) I have enjoyed plenty of Fords 7, BMWs 28, 2 Nissans and 5 Volvos. The service from Porsche OPC is absolutely the worst I have ever seen since I could drive 34 years ago. Their arrogance is remarkable.
2) the quality of their current cars is shocking - 992 with numerous issues and has been in workshop 12 times in 18 months. Paint flaking of the interior door cards - sorry Sir not covered under your warranty.
Simply remarkable. Aspirational brand for me to which has let me down so badly. Normally when the product is poor you get the people who make up for it.
Not with Porsche. They simply could not give a …..
Hotrods1974 said:
Two things from me
1) I have enjoyed plenty of Fords 7, BMWs 28, 2 Nissans and 5 Volvos. The service from Porsche OPC is absolutely the worst I have ever seen since I could drive 34 years ago. Their arrogance is remarkable.
2) the quality of their current cars is shocking - 992 with numerous issues and has been in workshop 12 times in 18 months. Paint flaking of the interior door cards - sorry Sir not covered under your warranty.
Simply remarkable. Aspirational brand for me to which has let me down so badly. Normally when the product is poor you get the people who make up for it.
Not with Porsche. They simply could not give a …..
They have become a mass manufacturer, their quality is no better than Audi to VW nowadays.1) I have enjoyed plenty of Fords 7, BMWs 28, 2 Nissans and 5 Volvos. The service from Porsche OPC is absolutely the worst I have ever seen since I could drive 34 years ago. Their arrogance is remarkable.
2) the quality of their current cars is shocking - 992 with numerous issues and has been in workshop 12 times in 18 months. Paint flaking of the interior door cards - sorry Sir not covered under your warranty.
Simply remarkable. Aspirational brand for me to which has let me down so badly. Normally when the product is poor you get the people who make up for it.
Not with Porsche. They simply could not give a …..
Just to jump on the bandwagon
My 3 year old Macan went in for an oil change and the work report was laughable - "only" 4mm left on the tyres so we advise you change. Brakes are scored and badly pitted on the inside edge, pads "only" have 5mm left - recommend changing them all.
They just take the piss and hope people pay. It just reminded me why I got rid of the 911 years ago and I'll probably swap the Macan out too I think. I like an easy life without having my trousers pulled down.
My 3 year old Macan went in for an oil change and the work report was laughable - "only" 4mm left on the tyres so we advise you change. Brakes are scored and badly pitted on the inside edge, pads "only" have 5mm left - recommend changing them all.
They just take the piss and hope people pay. It just reminded me why I got rid of the 911 years ago and I'll probably swap the Macan out too I think. I like an easy life without having my trousers pulled down.
Yup I've had 3 Porsches, all well used. The first a 944 was pretty solid, the second a 986S was pretty sketchy in a lot of areas, poor quality exhaust & fastenings etc. Still uses steel brake pipes rather than Kunifer. The last was a 955S. The Cayenne was a nightmare. Poor build quality, some from it VW roots.
Finally did water pump, thermostat on it, well my mechanic did. The thermostat is upside down in the inlet manifold. £260 worth of gaskets & a 4 hour job to get to. Vorsprung Durch Tecnic my arse. The OPC screwed up ordering the right bits. Ordered a hose & a water pump pulley. The 12" hose was an extortionate price, £100+ The old pulley had cracked in various places. The brand new pulley lasted 300 miles & exploded going from the South Circular to the A2 one Sunday. Absolutely lashing with rain. AA dropped off at my repairers & in the morning Terry sent me a picture. There was a 3/4" triangle where the bolts held it on, the rest was in small pieces around the engine bay. It shredded the £200 aux belt. I spoke to the OPC where I bought it from and have a long standing relationship with. Response "We didn't fit it so not our problem" Result last German POS that ever sits on our drive.
Finally did water pump, thermostat on it, well my mechanic did. The thermostat is upside down in the inlet manifold. £260 worth of gaskets & a 4 hour job to get to. Vorsprung Durch Tecnic my arse. The OPC screwed up ordering the right bits. Ordered a hose & a water pump pulley. The 12" hose was an extortionate price, £100+ The old pulley had cracked in various places. The brand new pulley lasted 300 miles & exploded going from the South Circular to the A2 one Sunday. Absolutely lashing with rain. AA dropped off at my repairers & in the morning Terry sent me a picture. There was a 3/4" triangle where the bolts held it on, the rest was in small pieces around the engine bay. It shredded the £200 aux belt. I spoke to the OPC where I bought it from and have a long standing relationship with. Response "We didn't fit it so not our problem" Result last German POS that ever sits on our drive.
I can't speak for the parts experiences, but my experience of Porsche ownership has been positive.
We've owned a few Porsches from 986/996 generation up to 981, and the quality seems to have got better over time. The 981 has been absolutely bulletproof, 20+ track days and close to zero issues. We get it serviced outside the OPC network, but using genuine parts, and Porsche have always honoured the extended warranty. With 2 year service intervals, it's cost <£500 per year plus consumables to maintain, which is remarkable really.
We've owned a few Porsches from 986/996 generation up to 981, and the quality seems to have got better over time. The 981 has been absolutely bulletproof, 20+ track days and close to zero issues. We get it serviced outside the OPC network, but using genuine parts, and Porsche have always honoured the extended warranty. With 2 year service intervals, it's cost <£500 per year plus consumables to maintain, which is remarkable really.
NorthDave said:
Just to jump on the bandwagon
My 3 year old Macan went in for an oil change and the work report was laughable - "only" 4mm left on the tyres so we advise you change. Brakes are scored and badly pitted on the inside edge, pads "only" have 5mm left - recommend changing them all.
They just take the piss and hope people pay. It just reminded me why I got rid of the 911 years ago and I'll probably swap the Macan out too I think. I like an easy life without having my trousers pulled down.
So no different from mainstream manufacturers then. TADTSMy 3 year old Macan went in for an oil change and the work report was laughable - "only" 4mm left on the tyres so we advise you change. Brakes are scored and badly pitted on the inside edge, pads "only" have 5mm left - recommend changing them all.
They just take the piss and hope people pay. It just reminded me why I got rid of the 911 years ago and I'll probably swap the Macan out too I think. I like an easy life without having my trousers pulled down.
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