PDK Woes (sorry to reopen)

[trawler]

Having been kindly loaned a Cayman for three days (late non turbo) and not getting on with the gearbox I thought what a coincidence to see the other thread on the topic. Having read a few posts I am none the wiser, hence why I have reopened the subject.

Firstly I have driven a flappy paddle car for over ten years and love it. The PDK, however, was a disappointment for the following reasons:

It changed down three times when accelerating during the time I had the car. Twice losing traction. Not nice.

It would creep forward without pressing the accelerator. Ok for parking, but not sitting for a short time in traffic when I do not want to sit there with my foot on the brake wondering if the clutch is slipping or fully released. Knocking the stick back to auto & then moving to neutral too much hassle compared to what I am used to. Oh, and my car does not move until I press the accelerator.

Thanking you for any replies in advance.

[Gerber1]

This thread will not end well for you, too many emotional PDK lovers on here.

Like you I enjoy flappy paddle gearboxes, it just has to be the right one. The E60 M5 or F430 come to mind!

[Gorsh]

Hi trawler,
The car creeping forward at idle is normal for most if not all auto boxes - if I'm stopped at lights or junction I just keep the brake on, if it's a longer stop I pop it into neutral and use the handbrake (no different to doing the same in a manual box).

I'm surprised you were worried about losing traction - the PSM is so good it keeps the car pretty stable in those situations. The more you apply the throttle the more gears it will drop to give you the revs needed for the power you are requesting, full throttle means using each gear to max revs before changing up. For more control it's best to put the stick to the left and choose your gears using the paddles - you can use full throttle in a higher gear if you want and short shift rather than going to max revs.

Getting the most from PDK is all about understanding how it behaves and learning how to change gear instinctively using the paddles - I'd never used them before and it took a while to become natural and then I really bonded with it. Driving in traffic, in town or cruising it's in auto, but on an open road I always use manual now and love it.

[trawler]

Hi Gorsh,

Thanks for the reply, but the car creeping forward & changing down automatically when in manual is not something I like. Never felt I could trust it when passing on B roads. Scared the sh*t out of me the first time it happened, not to mention the other times.

As Gerber says drive one of München's finest on how flappy paddles should work.

By the way, other than the gearbox I loved the car

[pete.g]

Some of what you say doesn't make sense to me - your point about slipping it back into auto suggests you were driving in manual mode, in which case you would not get the kick down gear changes you describe?

I have not driven an auto or PDK that does not creep forward when in gear with the brakes off.

Preference for DCT over PDK is personal taste - I did not like DCT when I test drove an E92 M3.

[trawler]

pete.g said:

Some of what you say doesn't make sense to me - your point about slipping it back into auto suggests you were driving in manual mode, in which case you would not get the kick down gear changes you describe?

I have not driven an auto or PDK that does not creep forward when in gear with the brakes off.

Preference for DCT over PDK is personal taste - I did not like DCT when I test drove an E92 M3.

Yes it changed down automatically in manual. That's why it scared the crap out of me when it happened.

Also why the creep when you don't want the car to move.? Only good for parking.

[trawler]

When the car is stationary and the brake is applied is the clutch fully disengaged or is the clutch slipping?

[mr pg]

trawler said:

Having been kindly loaned a Cayman for three days (late non turbo) and not getting on with the gearbox I thought what a coincidence to see the other thread on the topic. Having read a few posts I am none the wiser, hence why I have reopened the subject.

Firstly I have driven a flappy paddle car for over ten years and love it. The PDK, however, was a disappointment for the following reasons:

It changed down three times when accelerating during the time I had the car. Twice losing traction. Not nice.

It would creep forward without pressing the accelerator. Ok for parking, but not sitting for a short time in traffic when I do not want to sit there with my foot on the brake wondering if the clutch is slipping or fully released. Knocking the stick back to auto & then moving to neutral too much hassle compared to what I am used to. Oh, and my car does not move until I press the accelerator.

Thanking you for any replies in advance.

When you say it changed down when accelerating, had you moved the lever to full manual? In full manual it will only change down as you come to a halt to prevent stalling. Had you just pulled on the lever to change gear but with it still in auto mode? Accelerating may just have operated kick down, hence changing down.
It will creep forward, as in every auto box car I've ever driven. You don't need to move the lever to put it in neutral. Pulling both levers at the same times puts it into neutral, so the parking brake can then be used. Pulling on the up lever (may work on either but not tried the down lever yet) then puts it back in gear when ready to pull off.
Used properly pdk is a great gearbox and in a different league to any auto with paddles I've used.

[trawler]

Hi mr pg,

Thanks for the help on how to put it in neutral.

The car was in full manual mode.

Having scared the crap out of me by changing down on several occasions I just could not trust it. Other than that the gear box was fine. I could nit pick & say the paddles needed a more positive feel/click, but it did not distract from it being a great car.

It's just the auto change in full manual I could not live with.

[Cheib]

I drove a 718 Boxster S PDk a couple of months ago and though the gearbox worked very well. Drove it in a Panamera Diesel 4S for a day this week and liked it a lot less....really didn't think it suited the car and it also seemed to stay "in gear" of you took the foot off the throttle at say 50 mph so the car effectively costed under power if that makes sense. i.e. the engine kept pushing you a long for a bit just on tick over.

[mr pg]

trawler said:

Hi mr pg,

Thanks for the help on how to put it in neutral.

The car was in full manual mode.

Having scared the crap out of me by changing down on several occasions I just could not trust it. Other than that the gear box was fine. I could nit pick & say the paddles needed a more positive feel/click, but it did not distract from it being a great car.

It's just the auto change in full manual I could not live with.

I've never experienced the down change you describe (had mine 18 months, and use manual/paddles constantly), and not heard that mentioned before.

[mr pg]

Cheib said:

I drove a 718 Boxster S PDk a couple of months ago and though the gearbox worked very well. Drove it in a Panamera Diesel 4S for a day this week and liked it a lot less....really didn't think it suited the car and it also seemed to stay "in gear" of you took the foot off the throttle at say 50 mph so the car effectively costed under power if that makes sense. i.e. the engine kept pushing you a long for a bit just on tick over.

Was that the latest Panamera, or the original design, as that had a tiptronic box.

[Shaoxter]

trawler said:

Yes it changed down automatically in manual. That's why it scared the crap out of me when it happened.

It's been mentioned on the other thread... you're pushing the accelerator past the kickdown point.

pete.g said:

I have not driven an auto or PDK that does not creep forward when in gear with the brakes off.

The SMGs in older BMWs don't creep forward, that's one of the things I really like about it.
I do wish there was an option to turn off the creep though (as it should be technically possible). Teslas have that option!

[pete.g]

trawler said:

When the car is stationary and the brake is applied is the clutch fully disengaged or is the clutch slipping?

Neither clutch is engaged. Taking your foot off the brake engages clutch one and first gear on one of the driveshafts, second is automatically preselected on the other shaft and then engaged by the second clutch, hence the speed of the gearchanges.

They are electro hydraulic wet clutches, so slipping isn't really possible in the sense you mean - they are either in or out.

As the car has an electronic handbrake, putting it in neutral and putting the handbrake on is a pain.

I still don't see how you got a down change whilst accelerating in manual - in full manual mode the next higher gear would still be preselected.

Perhaps both you and the OP in the other thread have been unlucky enough to be given cars with software faults. I have had two PDK Caymans and have never had any of the things you and he describe happen.

Edited by pete.g on Sunday 1st January 23:19

[trawler]

pete.g said:

Neither clutch is engaged. Taking your foot off the brake engages clutch one and first gear on one of the driveshafts, second is automatically preselected on the other shaft and then engaged by the second clutch, hence the speed of the gearchanges.

They are electro hydraulic wet clutches, so slipping isn't really possible in the sense you mean - they are either in or out.

As the car has an electronic handbrake, putting it in neutral and putting the handbrake on is a pain.

I still don't see how you got a down change whilst accelerating in manual - in full manual mode the next higher gear would still be preselected.

Perhaps both you and the OP in the other thread have been unlucky enough to be given cars with software faults. I have had two PDK Caymans and have never had any of the things you and he describe happen.

Edited by pete.g on Sunday 1st January 23:19

Thanks for the explanation.

When I get time I think I will contact Porsche about the auto change down in manual & faulty software.

It's when I read comments that it should not happen followed by you have pressed the accelerator passed the kick down point that it gets confusing. I'm inclined to believe the faulty software explanation.

[FredBasset]

Gerber1 said:

This thread will not end well for you, too many emotional PDK lovers on here.

Like you I enjoy flappy paddle gearboxes, it just has to be the right one. The E60 M5 or F430 come to mind!

I must admit I read your original thread with some amazement, however this post makes a bit more sense to me. I had an E60 M5 and loved driving the car in manual mode. With an old style box like the SMG II you did have to use it very precisely. There are many posts decrying this box but if you got to understand it then you could drive it smoothly and it was fun.

When I got my 997 GTS with PDK it was too good and I just used it in auto mode as it wasn't as much fun to drive as the M5 in manual mode. However it was fun in other ways.

The PDK-S on my GT3 gets driven in manual mode much more frequently, its much more fun to drive like that.

Regards
Fred

[WindyM]

Hi trawler
You are not going mad! My early PDK changes down automatically in manual mode too! And it is irritating! (Mine is a late 2008 997.2.)
As others have said, you learn to live with it becuase it's easy to predict.
Have you driven Goodwood? As I go through the chicane, I want to stay in 3rd to use the engine's torque to pull me along the pit straight, but as soon as I squeeze the throttle to the end of travel (with or without activating the WOT switch), it will change down to second! So, reluctantly, I pull second either before the chicane or whilst going through and I change up as soon as I can along the straight. This is an example where I know it's going to happen and drive around it.
I accept that on the open road, randomly overtaking, it would be disconcerting.
Have a word with Porsche, but I think you'll find it's normal behaviour, especially if it's an early version (and mine does have latest software).
As for the creeping, I've no idea why they allow it to happen, other than to mimic a torque-converter auto. Stupid.
I hope this is helpul.
Windy

[andyc11]

Only ever experienced an auto change when in full manual if I go past the kick down point - which for me means if I'm wanting to make progress that quick and the car does it for me, I was in the wrong gear using full manual anyway. Mine's a 997.2 by the way.

[trawler]

Thanks for the latest posts.

If I am reading them correctly I change down (in full manual mode) to make an overtake knowing that the gear I have selected will get me past safely, but if I press the accelerator too far the gearbox will automatically kick down. Crazy. Why is this function not disabled in manual mode.

Sorry, but I prefer the SMG in BMWs. It will not kick down & give me loss of traction unexpectedly (the roads have not had a lot of grip of late).

Shame as I have said I love flappy paddles & driven one for over ten years. Just as much fun as our other fun car with three peddles.

[Whaleblue]

Reading the 718 on-line manual (albeit, the only one I can find is for the US market) it seems to suggest that kick down is only operative if D is selected.

http://www.porscheownersmanuals.com/2017-718-boxst...

Can any 718 PDK owners confirm either way?