I love my 996 c4 but I should have bought the C2
Discussion
I bought my dream car about 3 months ago, an absolutely perfect 996 C4 cab, I've wanted one since I was 17! I remember one firing past me when I was trying to nurse my first car, Austin Maestro, up a ver steep Scottish hill. Since that moment I've promised myself is get one, I could have had all sorts of toys but that was the make model and colour I wanted, so paid over the odds but got an absolutely perfect one with a tiny mileage.
To keep insurance down I've insured it as a second car, I'm based in london these which is where the Porsche lives and is taken out on weekends. Anyways I still have my 1999 BMW 318ti which I keep with my parents in Scotland. I bought it without an engine when I was 21 and built it up and liked it so much said I'd never sell it or replace it till I got a Porsche!
Today was the first time I've used it since I got the 996, and I didn't realise just what a great car the little BM was, I've had so much fun this morning, I've been round every corner sideways and I was barely doing 30! So so much fun at a reasonable speed, ok it's not the Porsche but the grin factor is huge in what is basically a £500 car!
It made me realise I bought the wrong car! I got the C4 rather than a C2 because it was my first really quick car and I didn't want to stuff it but, it's too good too sure footed, to get it out of shoe you have to be touching the sound barrier!
I love my Porsche and I don't regret a thing, the whole experience has been great, right from the dealer (top bloke, unlike the many others I met) to driving everything but..... If your an enthusiasm is for driving get the C2!
I have no doubt there will be horror at this statement and very sensible and knowledgeable people will totally disagree but I'm off to thrash the nuts off my old BMW and grin like tiny Blair!
My advice for what' it's worth is if you can get a C2 if you can't by a late 90's 3 series with crap tires on the back and enjoy!
To keep insurance down I've insured it as a second car, I'm based in london these which is where the Porsche lives and is taken out on weekends. Anyways I still have my 1999 BMW 318ti which I keep with my parents in Scotland. I bought it without an engine when I was 21 and built it up and liked it so much said I'd never sell it or replace it till I got a Porsche!
Today was the first time I've used it since I got the 996, and I didn't realise just what a great car the little BM was, I've had so much fun this morning, I've been round every corner sideways and I was barely doing 30! So so much fun at a reasonable speed, ok it's not the Porsche but the grin factor is huge in what is basically a £500 car!
It made me realise I bought the wrong car! I got the C4 rather than a C2 because it was my first really quick car and I didn't want to stuff it but, it's too good too sure footed, to get it out of shoe you have to be touching the sound barrier!
I love my Porsche and I don't regret a thing, the whole experience has been great, right from the dealer (top bloke, unlike the many others I met) to driving everything but..... If your an enthusiasm is for driving get the C2!
I have no doubt there will be horror at this statement and very sensible and knowledgeable people will totally disagree but I'm off to thrash the nuts off my old BMW and grin like tiny Blair!
My advice for what' it's worth is if you can get a C2 if you can't by a late 90's 3 series with crap tires on the back and enjoy!
George O said:
Fully agree, I kind of wanted the 993 but the 996 was the dream so had to get it! Don't regret it but should have gone C2, I still haven't found the balls to turn the traction control off!
You need to do a safe track day, like Blyton park. You will find that your car is not even in the slightest bit scary on or over the limit.mollytherocker said:
Most driving enthusiasts come to realise this eventually. It's why the MX5 is loved so much!
And why older Porsches are increasing in value.
You know, I sometimes shock myself by allowing the thought to cross my mind that I enjoy driving my early MX-5 more than my Turbo.And why older Porsches are increasing in value.
If or when I part ways with the Turbo, I will probably go for a Caterham. Or fit a turbo the size of an ox to the MX-5
And probably should have bought the coupe not the cab (for driver feel and interaction)
Those little 3 series have a ridiculous lack of rear grip, they start moving around very early (as already said, like the mx5). Are you sure it's not also that you've bought a car with relatively high limits? You can get a c4 sliding but you have to be pushing on. I would say you're right that a c2 is more engaging drivers car (but not by an huge amount) however, don't forget that hardly any drive is going to the front wheels until things get slipping so the main impact is the weight of the diff out front.
All 911s take getting used to, they don't drive like mx5s or 3 series BMWs as they have enormous amounts of traction and that unusual weight distribution. You have to turn them into a corner completely differently to a normal car.
Don't give up on it, do a track day, or take your time building experience on the road and see how you feel in a few months.
Those little 3 series have a ridiculous lack of rear grip, they start moving around very early (as already said, like the mx5). Are you sure it's not also that you've bought a car with relatively high limits? You can get a c4 sliding but you have to be pushing on. I would say you're right that a c2 is more engaging drivers car (but not by an huge amount) however, don't forget that hardly any drive is going to the front wheels until things get slipping so the main impact is the weight of the diff out front.
All 911s take getting used to, they don't drive like mx5s or 3 series BMWs as they have enormous amounts of traction and that unusual weight distribution. You have to turn them into a corner completely differently to a normal car.
Don't give up on it, do a track day, or take your time building experience on the road and see how you feel in a few months.
George O said:
It made me realise I bought the wrong car! I got the C4 rather than a C2 because it was my first really quick car and I didn't want to stuff it but, it's too good too sure footed, to get it out of shoe you have to be touching the sound barrier!
You won't unstick a C2 on normal roads either unless you're trying very hard or it's very greasy.Obviously only you know which is right for you, but I think you're perhaps jumping to conclusions that you should have bought a C2.
I remember reading the following post and thinking it made a lot of sense
I remember reading the following post and thinking it made a lot of sense
someone on 911uk said:
Always a little wary of RWD, all very well that you can hang the tail out and drift on a track, but sadly oil, water, ice, leaves, cold tires and basically the unforeseen tends to result in greater effects the more powerful the RWD car. Add the historically romantic (and useful in drag racing), but ultimately when the laws of physics are considered, non-ideal engine positioning, and I am afraid I go for the C4.
I have previously managed to get a couple of C2 sideways on the (cold) dry and they were fully PSM'd 997s. However, touch wood, never lost a Turbo or C4.
Somehow, I want my idea of a "Hedge Fund" to remain the perceived reason for global economic crashes, not the funds needed to fix wayward C2 crashes.
On the positive side, particularly in regard to pre-facelift 996.1, the car benefits from slightly more weight over front wheels (just compare C2 with full and empty tank for nuances), which brings a preferable steering response in my opinion (bear in mind, normal driving in C4 only sees 5% torque to front wheels, so it is not a "hot hatch" torque steer scenario putting down roughly 15 lbft through that width of tire).
You get PSM as standard, which you can switch off, so in itself it is not a hindrance for tracking etc.
On the tires point, ok do you loose the ability to "light up the rear tires", but the AWD means, if anything the tires are worn out slower.
Again comparing early cars, C4s all had eGas drive-by-wire which allows easy cruise control upgrade if nothing else (also more advanced engine management).
With regard the boot space. Firstly, it's a sports car not a Volvo estate, secondly, erm, rear boot, two rear seats and folding seat backs, so in a straight competition with Ferrari 360 the Porker wins the B&Q and dog transport challenge hands down! Seriously, though, the C2 has it's inflated spare wheel and toolkit vertical, so actual front to back dimensions are almost identical. The C4 has it's tool kit and deflated spare wheel in the boot well. Ok so you loose out on height, but the average squashy bag, or washing bucket (!) is alot shorter (the C2 boot is actually quite deep). So the headroom would be wasted any way, unless you planned to squash one and half bags in it.
Finally, again more significantly on the prefacelift 996.1, the C4 has the same torsionally strengthened front chassis and body structure as the GT3. Ok, technically the GT3 stole the structure from the C4, but either way Porsche saw fit to use it on the GT3.
As mentioned, the true test it to drive both. If you can't tell the difference (or you prefer the C4), buy the C4. Because the day you NEED to tell the difference, it may be too late.
PS - as for reliability, Porsche has used AWD on road cars since mid80s. The sytem was Subaru designed for 993 and further developed for 996 etc. Now, I haven't heard any horror stories on C4, but perhaps they have just been hiding behind the blizzard of RMS, IMS and general engine failures!
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The C4 adds 55 kg (not two fat guys or even one) and it is added in the drive line, front differential and driveshafts and the additional structural rigidity of the front chassis/shell (so if anything the weight is over the front to middle of the car, not the back).
For comparison, your fuel tank is 64 litres capacity or almost 64kg!
Finally, if you want a more balanced drive (weightwise) get the C4: the extra mechanicals improves the front / rear weight distribution from 38/62 to 40/60
I have previously managed to get a couple of C2 sideways on the (cold) dry and they were fully PSM'd 997s. However, touch wood, never lost a Turbo or C4.
Somehow, I want my idea of a "Hedge Fund" to remain the perceived reason for global economic crashes, not the funds needed to fix wayward C2 crashes.
On the positive side, particularly in regard to pre-facelift 996.1, the car benefits from slightly more weight over front wheels (just compare C2 with full and empty tank for nuances), which brings a preferable steering response in my opinion (bear in mind, normal driving in C4 only sees 5% torque to front wheels, so it is not a "hot hatch" torque steer scenario putting down roughly 15 lbft through that width of tire).
You get PSM as standard, which you can switch off, so in itself it is not a hindrance for tracking etc.
On the tires point, ok do you loose the ability to "light up the rear tires", but the AWD means, if anything the tires are worn out slower.
Again comparing early cars, C4s all had eGas drive-by-wire which allows easy cruise control upgrade if nothing else (also more advanced engine management).
With regard the boot space. Firstly, it's a sports car not a Volvo estate, secondly, erm, rear boot, two rear seats and folding seat backs, so in a straight competition with Ferrari 360 the Porker wins the B&Q and dog transport challenge hands down! Seriously, though, the C2 has it's inflated spare wheel and toolkit vertical, so actual front to back dimensions are almost identical. The C4 has it's tool kit and deflated spare wheel in the boot well. Ok so you loose out on height, but the average squashy bag, or washing bucket (!) is alot shorter (the C2 boot is actually quite deep). So the headroom would be wasted any way, unless you planned to squash one and half bags in it.
Finally, again more significantly on the prefacelift 996.1, the C4 has the same torsionally strengthened front chassis and body structure as the GT3. Ok, technically the GT3 stole the structure from the C4, but either way Porsche saw fit to use it on the GT3.
As mentioned, the true test it to drive both. If you can't tell the difference (or you prefer the C4), buy the C4. Because the day you NEED to tell the difference, it may be too late.
PS - as for reliability, Porsche has used AWD on road cars since mid80s. The sytem was Subaru designed for 993 and further developed for 996 etc. Now, I haven't heard any horror stories on C4, but perhaps they have just been hiding behind the blizzard of RMS, IMS and general engine failures!
...
...
The C4 adds 55 kg (not two fat guys or even one) and it is added in the drive line, front differential and driveshafts and the additional structural rigidity of the front chassis/shell (so if anything the weight is over the front to middle of the car, not the back).
For comparison, your fuel tank is 64 litres capacity or almost 64kg!
Finally, if you want a more balanced drive (weightwise) get the C4: the extra mechanicals improves the front / rear weight distribution from 38/62 to 40/60
George O said:
I bought my dream car about 3 months ago, an absolutely perfect 996 C4 cab, I've wanted one since I was 17! I remember one firing past me when I was trying to nurse my first car, Austin Maestro, up a ver steep Scottish hill. Since that moment I've promised myself is get one, I could have had all sorts of toys but that was the make model and colour I wanted, so paid over the odds but got an absolutely perfect one with a tiny mileage.
I'm fairly sure the 4wd on my c4s saved me from ending up the wrong way round at one point. You could be very thankful for it one day 
It's a bit more playful if you take the traction control off.
richardrsc said:
George O said:
I bought my dream car about 3 months ago, an absolutely perfect 996 C4 cab, I've wanted one since I was 17! I remember one firing past me when I was trying to nurse my first car, Austin Maestro, up a ver steep Scottish hill. Since that moment I've promised myself is get one, I could have had all sorts of toys but that was the make model and colour I wanted, so paid over the odds but got an absolutely perfect one with a tiny mileage.
I'm fairly sure the 4wd on my c4s saved me from ending up the wrong way round at one point. You could be very thankful for it one day It's a bit more playful if you take the traction control off.
Unless you're power oversteering everywhere, 4WD will not save you in a slide. It's the PSM that will do that - get a C2 with it and there's nothing to worry about at all. I remember at Millbrook when the instructor was showing us how effective it was in preventing the car from sliding - we did everything on a soaking wet surface; power oversteer, sharply brake mid corner on the limit, everything you shouldn't do on a 911. PSM caught it unbelievably quickly, every time.
But surely the point of a 911 is the feel, and the challenge of the rear engined layout - not hanging the arse out around bends. If you want to do that, then a forced induction MX5 with LSD would suit you nicely.
But surely the point of a 911 is the feel, and the challenge of the rear engined layout - not hanging the arse out around bends. If you want to do that, then a forced induction MX5 with LSD would suit you nicely.
911p said:
Unless you're power oversteering everywhere, 4WD will not save you in a slide.
It will. (Have a read of how the system works)It's a dangerous game relying on PSM.
In practice, what it essentially does is 'stop the situation getting worse' however it is hopeless for actually retrieving the situation.
Edited by monthefish on Monday 13th May 11:41
monthefish said:
It will. (Have a read of how the system works)
It's a dangerous game relying on PSM.
In practice, what it essentially does is 'stop the situation getting worse' however it is hopeless for actually retrieving the situation.
In practice, it works, and it works well. I know that for sure.It's a dangerous game relying on PSM.
In practice, what it essentially does is 'stop the situation getting worse' however it is hopeless for actually retrieving the situation.
I'll have a read up when I have time but I don't see how transferring power to the front wheels will help, unless you put alot of power down and let it pull you out of the slide. But again, a situation that would have caused the 4WD to go to 60/40 would be through losing traction under power. If you simply slide on leaves/ice etc then PSM would have sorted the situation before way before 4WD, which would only have responded if you put the power down when you started to slide anyway.
OP - Have you driven a C2 sufficiently to have really got to grips with the real differences.
I've had both 2 and 4 wheel drive versions, though not of comparable generations. I guess my observation is that the C2/C4 cars since 1997 are so accomplished they can all feel a bit tame compared to older cars or the GT varients.
It may be worth speaking to a good suspension expert to see if they can adjust things more to your liking. You might be suprised by how much differnce a bit of mild geo tinkering will make
I've had both 2 and 4 wheel drive versions, though not of comparable generations. I guess my observation is that the C2/C4 cars since 1997 are so accomplished they can all feel a bit tame compared to older cars or the GT varients.
It may be worth speaking to a good suspension expert to see if they can adjust things more to your liking. You might be suprised by how much differnce a bit of mild geo tinkering will make
911p said:
In practice, it works, and it works well. I know that for sure.
I'll have a read up when I have time but I don't see how transferring power to the front wheels will help, unless you put alot of power down and let it pull you out of the slide. But again, a situation that would have caused the 4WD to go to 60/40 would be through losing traction under power. If you simply slide on leaves/ice etc then PSM would have sorted the situation before way before 4WD, which would only have responded if you put the power down when you started to slide anyway.
well, I can't honestly know which one saved my arse, could have been a combination but it felt as if it was pulled forward out of it. Happened so quick it's hard to know.I'll have a read up when I have time but I don't see how transferring power to the front wheels will help, unless you put alot of power down and let it pull you out of the slide. But again, a situation that would have caused the 4WD to go to 60/40 would be through losing traction under power. If you simply slide on leaves/ice etc then PSM would have sorted the situation before way before 4WD, which would only have responded if you put the power down when you started to slide anyway.
However, 4's also have a big sexy arse, which is good enough for me!
my 2c, as a 996 C2 owner. These cars are very stable and won't go sideways the way an M3 would. Of course you can provoke a powerslide (I only tried at low speed in the wet) but they are built for speed, not for drifting.
Perhaps the older porsches had a different attitude (I'll tell you once I get my hands on an old. 3.2 at some point).
On the C2/C4, I would say the C2 has the better steering (for me). I wouldn't have had the C4.
The C4S however, that I would have had, based on looks alone.
Perhaps the older porsches had a different attitude (I'll tell you once I get my hands on an old. 3.2 at some point).
On the C2/C4, I would say the C2 has the better steering (for me). I wouldn't have had the C4.
The C4S however, that I would have had, based on looks alone.
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