boxster and caymans - upgrades?
Discussion
it always strikes me that the enthusiasm shown in the GT3 end of the porsche family is mirrored by that shown from boxster and cayman section. theres as many passions here as there is anywhere however the numbers of those owners taking steps to get the most from their cars seems to be rather small.
its a strange situation given the demand and love for both the spyder and cayman R (showing that a focused model will garner a ton of interest) and the relative price of entry, especially with the 986.
over my time on the forum this has always intrigued me. with a really focused car only a few bolt on mods away why isnt there an endless stream of owners doing it?
im not talking about making a stripped out race car here but just really unlocking the car from the drivers perspective. no one really want a boxster or cayman with no interior and a cage giving them even less room than they already have while riding on shocks/springs that make it stiff as a board and ruining its whole thing. this isnt the way to go.
the wonder of porsche (even up to 997) is the modularity across the range. you can really still apply the air cooled approach of cherry picking the best bits from various models and bolting it into your car to make it special for you and as with the 996 and 997 C2 theres a whole world of this available to the boxster and cayman.
i'll admit that theres a real lack of knowledge (in general) on the water cooled cars about just what and how you can change or customise things and this seems greater with the boxster and cayman cars. any focus always seems to be on the lack of power totally missing the point and asking folks to open their wallets wide even just to think about changes. its the interfaces you want to deal with and many seem to not get it.
im genuinely interested to hear from owners what the reasons are. is it just simply that theres a total lack of information and that all you have offered is the option of wheels, bilsteins or a larger engine (and perhaps thus no sense of just what you could do with the car without spending a ton) or is there really just no real enthusiasm for changing things? i appreciate that coming from the racing (and specifically the Cup) side my outlook on cars and awareness of what can be swapped over is rather different hence the question. if i am so out of touch with an average road car owner then i would be happy to hear it.
its all becoming sharply focused with the new cayman appearing. with PDK-S and the current power levels coupled to the size (and the 991 size). some small changes to that car could really unlock something special. its already getting alot of love from the motoring journalists and really isnt far away from something quite wonderful.
im not looking for the usual dirge in terms of replies. theres plenty of threads for the usual polarised cliches to be expressed. i know there are a few of you with boxsters and solid opinions and views, and like most internet forums (and if my email inbox is anything to go by) theres a whole lot more of you in the silent majority with these cars and opinions too. hopefully you all have some thoughts to share.
its a strange situation given the demand and love for both the spyder and cayman R (showing that a focused model will garner a ton of interest) and the relative price of entry, especially with the 986.
over my time on the forum this has always intrigued me. with a really focused car only a few bolt on mods away why isnt there an endless stream of owners doing it?
im not talking about making a stripped out race car here but just really unlocking the car from the drivers perspective. no one really want a boxster or cayman with no interior and a cage giving them even less room than they already have while riding on shocks/springs that make it stiff as a board and ruining its whole thing. this isnt the way to go.
the wonder of porsche (even up to 997) is the modularity across the range. you can really still apply the air cooled approach of cherry picking the best bits from various models and bolting it into your car to make it special for you and as with the 996 and 997 C2 theres a whole world of this available to the boxster and cayman.
i'll admit that theres a real lack of knowledge (in general) on the water cooled cars about just what and how you can change or customise things and this seems greater with the boxster and cayman cars. any focus always seems to be on the lack of power totally missing the point and asking folks to open their wallets wide even just to think about changes. its the interfaces you want to deal with and many seem to not get it.
im genuinely interested to hear from owners what the reasons are. is it just simply that theres a total lack of information and that all you have offered is the option of wheels, bilsteins or a larger engine (and perhaps thus no sense of just what you could do with the car without spending a ton) or is there really just no real enthusiasm for changing things? i appreciate that coming from the racing (and specifically the Cup) side my outlook on cars and awareness of what can be swapped over is rather different hence the question. if i am so out of touch with an average road car owner then i would be happy to hear it.
its all becoming sharply focused with the new cayman appearing. with PDK-S and the current power levels coupled to the size (and the 991 size). some small changes to that car could really unlock something special. its already getting alot of love from the motoring journalists and really isnt far away from something quite wonderful.
im not looking for the usual dirge in terms of replies. theres plenty of threads for the usual polarised cliches to be expressed. i know there are a few of you with boxsters and solid opinions and views, and like most internet forums (and if my email inbox is anything to go by) theres a whole lot more of you in the silent majority with these cars and opinions too. hopefully you all have some thoughts to share.
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 3rd May 11:49
I would also be interested to see what can be done to increase power without going on the forced induction route.
Although my car is currently under OPC warranty I will be looking to move away to a plan which allows modifications in the future.
What gains are available from de-snorking, IPD plenum, throttle bodies, etc. etc. etc and what are the options?
I am happy with the chasis and handling but do think the Gen II cars can take a fair amount of extra power.
Thanks.
Although my car is currently under OPC warranty I will be looking to move away to a plan which allows modifications in the future.
What gains are available from de-snorking, IPD plenum, throttle bodies, etc. etc. etc and what are the options?
I am happy with the chasis and handling but do think the Gen II cars can take a fair amount of extra power.
Thanks.
thats pretty much my point.
everyone seems to be, for whatever reason, focused on the relative lack of power. does this prevailing mindset have the effect of suffocating development and owners approach to the car? is this why one sees pretty much standard cars everywhere? no one can see past this point to look at the rest of things?
the power is what it is and it doesnt ruin the enjoyment of the car for most. if it did no one would buy one. cmoose makes the point repeatedly that being able to use 100% of his car is what gives him his enjoyment and i suspect that for many this holds. its not a slow car and the trade off with extra speed is enjoyment and a feeling of really driving. this holds across the range and models.
any "show models" ive seen from places here tend to succumb to this blind alley thinking. they plop in larger engines (that do not compliment....ask me about a 3.4 i built as a 3.9 sometime making 400hp) while ignoring the things that could be done that would be effective and cheap and would bring out even more of what the car is about.
theres a short list of items, none of which are power related and all available from porsche that if done to a boxster or cayman would really make it fantastic to drive without leaving owners with big bills or a completely different car.
across the range of boxsters and caymans, from the earliest cars to the current the things that seem obvious to change are almost identical but ive yet to see one car with any of it fitted never mind the lot. i wonder if its lack of interest or whether its purely a lack of information being given to owners.
everyone seems to be, for whatever reason, focused on the relative lack of power. does this prevailing mindset have the effect of suffocating development and owners approach to the car? is this why one sees pretty much standard cars everywhere? no one can see past this point to look at the rest of things?
the power is what it is and it doesnt ruin the enjoyment of the car for most. if it did no one would buy one. cmoose makes the point repeatedly that being able to use 100% of his car is what gives him his enjoyment and i suspect that for many this holds. its not a slow car and the trade off with extra speed is enjoyment and a feeling of really driving. this holds across the range and models.
any "show models" ive seen from places here tend to succumb to this blind alley thinking. they plop in larger engines (that do not compliment....ask me about a 3.4 i built as a 3.9 sometime making 400hp) while ignoring the things that could be done that would be effective and cheap and would bring out even more of what the car is about.
theres a short list of items, none of which are power related and all available from porsche that if done to a boxster or cayman would really make it fantastic to drive without leaving owners with big bills or a completely different car.
across the range of boxsters and caymans, from the earliest cars to the current the things that seem obvious to change are almost identical but ive yet to see one car with any of it fitted never mind the lot. i wonder if its lack of interest or whether its purely a lack of information being given to owners.
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 3rd May 12:22
Excellent thread. Mostly down to the fact i'm on the hunt for the right 987C.
I've had a few cars in the past that were literally fizzing to drive and i would love the Cayman to deliver the same seat of your pants thrills, drama and interaction.
So if you were to build a h'omage du GT3 Cayman, ignoring the engine for now, what would you pick?
Feel/Handling :
Aurally :
Brakes :
Interior (seats/steering wheel) :
Realistically we are talking sub £20k for the base car. Even throwing £5k at it won't get you anywhere near Cayman R territory.
I don't have £35k to spend on a GT3, nor the money to keep it in the trim it should be accustomed to.
So, what is needed/suggested to make a road oriented 98* trully special to drive without becoming a butchered track slag?
I've had a few cars in the past that were literally fizzing to drive and i would love the Cayman to deliver the same seat of your pants thrills, drama and interaction.
So if you were to build a h'omage du GT3 Cayman, ignoring the engine for now, what would you pick?
Feel/Handling :
Aurally :
Brakes :
Interior (seats/steering wheel) :
Realistically we are talking sub £20k for the base car. Even throwing £5k at it won't get you anywhere near Cayman R territory.
I don't have £35k to spend on a GT3, nor the money to keep it in the trim it should be accustomed to.
So, what is needed/suggested to make a road oriented 98* trully special to drive without becoming a butchered track slag?
There are more Boxster owners on other forums eg boxa.net and the sorts of discussions you are talking about are much more prevalent there. I have a cheap 986 and have made steps to add a little more power - the usual 996 plenum and throttle body - and also to refresh the suspension arms and now add the M030 suspension. Of course all this is a waste of time without a decent set-up which has also been done and will be done again. I am certainly from the bargain-tuning school of thought. Personally, I'm not bothered about the latest stickiest tyre as all that does is push the boundary of grip further out.
nice reply. i wondered whether to include the shadow of the GT3 in my original post as the second suffocating point but i wasnt sure how important it actually was.
building a cayman GT3 as it would be commonly thought of wouldnt be the way forward either. you would end up with a large bill too and not a better car. you would simply have overspec'd a bunch of components.
the basic car is already nearly there. its just lacking a few things to really let it out. the beauty is that everything is available from porsche and so by adding to the car you wont ruin it. nothing will look aftermarket or garish.
building a cayman GT3 as it would be commonly thought of wouldnt be the way forward either. you would end up with a large bill too and not a better car. you would simply have overspec'd a bunch of components.
the basic car is already nearly there. its just lacking a few things to really let it out. the beauty is that everything is available from porsche and so by adding to the car you wont ruin it. nothing will look aftermarket or garish.
most boxster and especially more so caymans are still under warranty and after all the horror stories of the m96/7 engine i think most want to keep the warranty valid.but i believe the dfi engine is more stable and less prone to imploding but then these cars are still under 5 years old.if you want a more focused boxster/cayman and want the warranty intact get a spyder/cr ok we still want more power but they are still a good allround package.
Dare I suggest that boxster and cayman owners are not generally the type of people who want to 'improve' their cars from a drivers perspective?
A massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth to it?
A massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth to it?
Edited by mollytherocker on Friday 3rd May 12:48
mollytherocker said:
Dare I suggest that boxster and cayman owners are not generally the type of people who want to 'improve' their cars from a drivers perspective?
A massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth I it?
no i just bought mine straight out the box with a 3 year warrantyA massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth I it?
fioran0 said:
the basic car is already nearly there. its just lacking a few things to really let it out. the beauty is that everything is available from porsche and so by adding to the car you wont ruin it. nothing will look aftermarket or garish.
What other Porsche parts do you suggest for a 987 then? Anything specific?edc,
thats encouraging that there are folks changing but its just the default skirting around the edges stuff. bushes and shocks are always a first starting point and while they bring results its also a lacking in grey matter input. its generic.
this has all come about from a conversation i had a few weeks ago with someone with a lot invested in the boxster and cayman world. it started off general but ended up getting specific. there wasnt a lot of divergence as it turned out. as conversations often do, it left me wondering why theres not more talk of these things from owners.
that theres no need because of the spyder or R isnt the knock out punch. one could easily make a car that was better than either for less than the differential between a base model and one of these.
thats encouraging that there are folks changing but its just the default skirting around the edges stuff. bushes and shocks are always a first starting point and while they bring results its also a lacking in grey matter input. its generic.
this has all come about from a conversation i had a few weeks ago with someone with a lot invested in the boxster and cayman world. it started off general but ended up getting specific. there wasnt a lot of divergence as it turned out. as conversations often do, it left me wondering why theres not more talk of these things from owners.
that theres no need because of the spyder or R isnt the knock out punch. one could easily make a car that was better than either for less than the differential between a base model and one of these.
mollytherocker said:
Dare I suggest that boxster and cayman owners are not generally the type of people who want to 'improve' their cars from a drivers perspective?
A massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth to it?
that may well be, but my suspicion was that the perceived lack of power was the root. no one can see past it and it blinkers all thoughts on the car itself.A massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth to it?
Edited by mollytherocker on Friday 3rd May 12:48
so far its looking like i was on the money in the main.
fioran0 said:
edc,
thats encouraging that there are folks changing but its just the default skirting around the edges stuff. bushes and shocks are always a first starting point and while they bring results its also a lacking in grey matter input. its generic.
this has all come about from a conversation i had a few weeks ago with someone with a lot invested in the boxster and cayman world. it started off general but ended up getting specific. there wasnt a lot of divergence as it turned out. as conversations often do, it left me wondering why theres not more talk of these things from owners.
that theres no need because of the spyder or R isnt the knock out punch. one could easily make a car that was better than either for less than the differential between a base model and one of these.
It may be generic but it's the base for any car tuning not just Porsche surely. In any case, it suits my needs and budget just fine at this point in time. Throttle body and intake change will probably come in at <£200, manifolds and silencer were <£150 each. The M030 suspension is hard to ignore and is good value at £600. If you've got some other good ideas lets hear them thats encouraging that there are folks changing but its just the default skirting around the edges stuff. bushes and shocks are always a first starting point and while they bring results its also a lacking in grey matter input. its generic.
this has all come about from a conversation i had a few weeks ago with someone with a lot invested in the boxster and cayman world. it started off general but ended up getting specific. there wasnt a lot of divergence as it turned out. as conversations often do, it left me wondering why theres not more talk of these things from owners.
that theres no need because of the spyder or R isnt the knock out punch. one could easily make a car that was better than either for less than the differential between a base model and one of these.
I know you could fit adjustable arms and roll bars from the 996 but they aren't actually that cheap and for a road based car you can get enough adjustment on the standard stuff to suit most needs.
it certainly is the base for most tuning. my point, and i may have expressed it less than clearly was that it doesnt show any thought to the platform. go to any shop and they will offer you shocks and springs (for any car). its a generic stage one step and so people having done this in numbers is encouraging in so much as they are being proactive but it doesnt offer more than that in terms of the discussion. for the cayman and boxster it seems that everything after is just power power power totally ignoring what the car is about and what would take this on further.
btw, you have zero adjustment on the standard bars. you are fixed with the factory turn in. i would however add that these wouldnt be the first thing i would be throwing at the car since its not too bad as delivered.
btw, you have zero adjustment on the standard bars. you are fixed with the factory turn in. i would however add that these wouldnt be the first thing i would be throwing at the car since its not too bad as delivered.
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 3rd May 13:13
I don't quite get what your point is, apart from the 'power hunger' issue.
'Bolt on approach'? Please point me out to which bits are like that.
Btw, I'm running a 986 with aftermarket suspension and a few other mods which were more expensive than for any other car I have owned (and not better).
'Bolt on approach'? Please point me out to which bits are like that.
Btw, I'm running a 986 with aftermarket suspension and a few other mods which were more expensive than for any other car I have owned (and not better).
The US chaps do plenty to eek out performance from the 987. Check out Planet9.com for a very enthusiastic group, site sponser TPC racing offer various power upgrades but a starting point is certainly GT3 throttle body and plenum as already mentioned.
Personally I only did cosmetics and some wheel spacers to tidy it up a bit. Oh i also got some lovely custom fit mesh for front air vents to save my rads.
But like most who bought from OPC, there is a reluctance to void warranties with performance mods.
Personally I only did cosmetics and some wheel spacers to tidy it up a bit. Oh i also got some lovely custom fit mesh for front air vents to save my rads.
But like most who bought from OPC, there is a reluctance to void warranties with performance mods.
Edited by DoubleSix on Sunday 5th May 00:15
fioran0 said:
it certainly is the base for most tuning. my point, and i may have expressed it less than clearly was that it doesnt show any thought to the platform. go to any shop and they will offer you shocks and springs (for any car). its a generic stage one step and so people having done this in numbers is encouraging in so much as they are being proactive but it doesnt offer more than that in terms of the discussion. for the cayman and boxster it seems that everything after is just power power power totally ignoring what the car is about and what would take this on further.
btw, you have zero adjustment on the standard bars. you are fixed with the factory turn in. i would however add that these wouldnt be the first thing i would be throwing at the car since its not too bad as delivered.
You're a bit cryptic in your posts btw, you have zero adjustment on the standard bars. you are fixed with the factory turn in. i would however add that these wouldnt be the first thing i would be throwing at the car since its not too bad as delivered.
Edited by fioran0 on Friday 3rd May 13:13
What else are you suggesting or where do you think people should be spending their money? If people aren't doing it, is it not because they don't have the information sources and it is people like you who may be able to stimulate discussion and experiments?I'd suggest that most people buy a Boxster for the road. The factory suspension allows enough adjustment to suit most needs for the road. I know that the standard anti-roll bars are fixed and non-adjustable. Sure there are some Boxsters in race series and others which are more dedicated track focussed cars. What else are you suggesting is to be done which doesn't turn the Boxster into a track car or where the limits are even higher for the road?
OlberJ said:
What other Porsche parts do you suggest for a 987 then? Anything specific?
the same stuff pretty much applies to the 986 and 987 though there are some things in the details for each one of course.really the cars need some aero, a diff and some upgrades to the interior and interfaces including the seats and shifter as the main points imho. these are all areas where both models have always lacked the final magic. brakes is a less evenly applied solution, so in some cases it would certainly be beneficial, in others less so. all of the parts (except the diff, but there are porsche diff options) are available right from the parts dept and just go right on/in. this is important as it saves you running round in a halfords special or coming up with less than wonderful solutions to get it to work.
its about bringing out whats there and tying everything together into a cohesive whole. none of it is going to make you faster in a drag race but you are in the wrong car completely if thats your thing.
none of it is groundbreaking but it seems so left out of whats offered to owners, or what owners are focusing on (for the most part, always exceptions) and i wondered why.
i can easily get into more detail on the bits above if you want to. just let me know.
fioran0 said:
mollytherocker said:
Dare I suggest that boxster and cayman owners are not generally the type of people who want to 'improve' their cars from a drivers perspective?
A massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth to it?
that may well be, but my suspicion was that the perceived lack of power was the root. no one can see past it and it blinkers all thoughts on the car itself.A massive stereotyping and generalisation I know, and bound to be a little controversial, but surely there is element of truth to it?
Edited by mollytherocker on Friday 3rd May 12:48
so far its looking like i was on the money in the main.
I didn't buy my Gen 1 Cayman S for its performance (my track car gives me that fix) but for it everyday usability and the potential to take it on track when the mood dictates.
I would, however, be interested to learn of what suspension mods including geo would improve the 987 without breaking the bank and spoiling a very good daily drive.
Edited by Trev450 on Friday 3rd May 13:39
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