Not sure that this heal and toe caper is for me!

[Solarized]

On first attempt I nearly heal and toed myself straight into an empty roundabout with the look of death on my face

Just seems so counterintuitive even at low speeds. I get the benefits to the drivetrain and the'alleged' pleasure in rev matching etc but not sure it's for me especially since I've no plans to do any track days. I also wonder if it would disrupt my usual reactions in an emergency stop situation.

Having said all that I also hate to think I'm missing out on further driving enjoyment so is it worth taking the time to recallibrate the reflexes and just learn the technique?

[anonymous-user]

Nah, just buy a PDK, box does it for you and the car is quicker anyway.

[cay]

I'm not actually sure how people do this when driving on the road ( if at all ).

In order to properly blip the throttle the brake pedal needs to be depressed quite a way to bring it level with the throttle. This mean very hard braking and while it would be expected on the track how often does this happen in road driving?

[PGM]

I just do it by moving the ball my foot slightly and rolling it over to the throttle rather than the actual heel and toe.

[V8KSN]

Solarized said:

On first attempt I nearly heal and toed myself straight into an empty roundabout with the look of death on my face

Just seems so counterintuitive even at low speeds. I get the benefits to the drivetrain and the'alleged' pleasure in rev matching etc but not sure it's for me especially since I've no plans to do any track days. I also wonder if it would disrupt my usual reactions in an emergency stop situation.

Having said all that I also hate to think I'm missing out on further driving enjoyment so is it worth taking the time to recallibrate the reflexes and just learn the technique?

I guess my first question would be "How do you think 'heel and toe' works"

I would suggest finding a very large car park and do the following...

1) Drive off from a standing start and accelerate up to a safe speed and go through gears 1,2 and 3

2) Now change from 3rd gear to 2nd gear - Notice how the gearbox and engine jerk and upset the balance of the car as they reconnect - make a note of the revs at this point

3) Repeat step 1

4) Now change from 3rd gear to 2nd gear but when you have depressed the clutch and the gearbox is in neutral, blip the throttle up around the rev level you noted in step 2 and engage 2nd gear. You should not notice any jerk like you did previously.

- Repeat the above till it becomes second nature

- Try and blip the throttle while braking at the same time (by rolling your foot over)

- SLOWLY increase the speed that all this happens

Once you feel you have it dialled in, try it on the road but make sure that at ANY POINT IN TIME you can stop the car safely if need be.

Others may say all the above is nonsense but thats how I do it

[Darranu]

Some car's are easier than others due to there pedal layout.
In my 996 it's simple and just a case of moving my heal across to the throttle whilst applying braking effort with the ball of the foot.

After a while you end up doing it without thinking which personally I think is good practice, when you pick up the pace or move onto a track your already doing it and don't have to make that consious effort if you know what I mean.

D

[PGM]

Darranu said:

Some car's are easier than others due to there pedal layout.
In my 996 it's simple and just a case of moving my heal across to the throttle whilst applying braking effort with the ball of the foot.

After a while you end up doing it without thinking which personally I think is good practice, when you pick up the pace or move onto a track your already doing it and don't have to make that consious effort if you know what I mean.

D

In my previous 996 and Boxster and my current 997 I don't think I could get my heel onto the thottle while braking as it's hinged from the floor and the brake from above and they're too close together, hence I use the ball of my foot on the brake and the lower/right side of the ball on the top of the throttle. I reckon you'd need a universal joint instead of an ankle otherwise

[MadMark911]

V8KSN said:

I guess my first question would be "How do you think 'heel and toe' works"

I would suggest finding a very large car park and do the following...

1) Drive off from a standing start and accelerate up to a safe speed and go through gears 1,2 and 3

2) Now change from 3rd gear to 2nd gear - Notice how the gearbox and engine jerk and upset the balance of the car as they reconnect - make a note of the revs at this point

3) Repeat step 1

4) Now change from 3rd gear to 2nd gear but when you have depressed the clutch and the gearbox is in neutral, blip the throttle up around the rev level you noted in step 2 and engage 2nd gear. You should not notice any jerk like you did previously.

- Repeat the above till it becomes second nature

- Try and blip the throttle while braking at the same time (by rolling your foot over)

- SLOWLY increase the speed that all this happens

Once you feel you have it dialled in, try it on the road but make sure that at ANY POINT IN TIME you can stop the car safely if need be.

Others may say all the above is nonsense but thats how I do it

Good suggestion Mr V8 - but I had a professional instructor teach me how to do it (and not on public roads); and I think they might help you learn faster. Go to the PEC Silverstone and ask to be taught how to do it and left foot braking if you really want to go the extra mile! Neither are for everyone as it does require substantial coordination to do it properly.

Edited by MadMark911 on Friday 12th April 09:50

[PGM]

I learnt it from my driving instructor too, that's a good shout.

[Technomad]

PGM said:

I just do it by moving the ball my foot slightly and rolling it over to the throttle rather than the actual heel and toe.

+1 - I think "heel and toe" is slightly misleading - heel is actually on floor and is the pivot for the foot, so on my 997.2, I've got the ball of my foot on the brake and roll the edge of my foot onto the throttle to blip it. Most of the time, I'm only using this when I'm using the brakes fairly hard, as the main point of heel & toe is to compress the slowing down distance to improve point-to-point time. For normal driving, where I'm managing my speed with throttle sense, I'm just blipping on downshifts without using the brakes. In IAM terms, heel & toe is overlapping the elements of the System, so you'd only be doing it when there's a good reason, although a few, more anal, IAM types are horrified at the very prospect and don't regard using h&t as acceptable at all. bks to that - If you're 'making progress' in a 911 on a winding road, those occasions when I get my timing just right mean that the slow-in, fast-out approach to 911 driving becomes a complete joy. The rest of the time, the car is just sniggering at my incompetence…

[PGM]

Technomad said:

PGM said:

I just do it by moving the ball my foot slightly and rolling it over to the throttle rather than the actual heel and toe.

+1 - I think "heel and toe" is slightly misleading - heel is actually on floor and is the pivot for the foot, so on my 997.2, I've got the ball of my foot on the brake and roll the edge of my foot onto the throttle to blip it. Most of the time, I'm only using this when I'm using the brakes fairly hard, as the main point of heel & toe is to compress the slowing down distance to improve point-to-point time. For normal driving, where I'm managing my speed with throttle sense, I'm just blipping on downshifts without using the brakes. In IAM terms, heel & toe is overlapping the elements of the System, so you'd only be doing it when there's a good reason, although a few, more anal, IAM types are horrified at the very prospect and don't regard using h&t as acceptable at all. bks to that - If you're 'making progress' in a 911 on a winding road, those occasions when I get my timing just right mean that the slow-in, fast-out approach to 911 driving becomes a complete joy. The rest of the time, the car is just sniggering at my incompetence…

Exactly right there, I'm RoSPA rather than IAM but principle is the same.

[sneakybear]

We can learn from the master here (with loafers on!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2AEsGAhU

For us guys in younger metal (997 over 993) I find it much harder without the sport button pressed as this makes the throttle response sharper so it blips quicker.

Definitely worth getting right as it makes the drive smoother and personally I get a warm fuzzy feeling when I hook it up consecutively over a good stretch of proper road (A82/83 etc)...

[Dasilva997]

I believe we're trying to explain 'double declutching' here, which is performed using the 'heal and toe' technique when there is the necessity to brake simultaneously. This is used when braking hard on a track or race for example or a trucker wanting to change down gears on a downhill to utilise engine braking.

In addition to the steps described, you also need to release the clutch when in neutral, otherwise you're just needlessly revving the engine. You're effectively trying to match the gearbox speed to the wheel/road speed to get rid of the jerking of changing down, or get into a lower gear (higher up the rev range) to maximise your acceleration out of a corner.

So:

4) Now change from 3rd gear to 2nd gear but when you have depressed the clutch and the gearbox is in neutral, RELEASE THE CLUTCH, blip the throttle up around the rev level you noted in step 2 DEPRESS THE CLUTCH and engage 2nd gear AND RELEASE THE CLUTCH. You should not notice any jerk like you did previously.

Hence the name double declutch. When braking, the technique is performed by using the heel or side of your right foot, hence 'heel and toe'.

-

Under normal road driving conditions in a car (ie: when the road a gear box speed are similar) a synchronised gear box of a road car does this for you very well. However if there is a need to compensate for a large differential in wheel speed to gear box speed ie: when changing down on a hill, or when braking hard 'when pressing on' :0) ! - the technique can be used to 'get rid of the jerk' or get into a lower gear earlier in order to zip out the corner!

[chiark]

The only car I've ever managed to heel and toe in, using heel and toe, is the 996 thanks to the utterly outstanding brakes which aren't servoed to the point of trigger response.

Every other car ended up being a "catch the accelerator with another part of the foot" rather than heel and toe, like Senna's doing in that video above.

I did see a fantastic video of a guy in Japan comparing the 996 with 997 and heel and toeing like a demon: let me see if I can find it...

[PGM]

That's a good point regarding the servo assistance levels.

We have an Octavia vRS at work and it's difficult to achieve a good result in it due to the massively over-servoed brakes so don't bother at all.

[MogulBoy]

In the era of GoPro cameras etc, I would like to see some more footage (geddit?) of expert 9X6 rev matching esp. on-road as opposed to on-track.

I have always found the biting point on my brakes is too deep and expect that a rock-solid brake pedal would help enormously with the pivot point. I find that it all appears to be that much easier when you are exerting a relatively high force on the brake pedal - as you might be doing on track - but when attempting to rev match on the public road when just 'making progress' and not exerting such high pressures on the brake pedal, I just find it a frustrating exercise at my ability level.

[GentlePersuasion]

cay said:

I'm not actually sure how people do this when driving on the road ( if at all ).

In order to properly blip the throttle the brake pedal needs to be depressed quite a way to bring it level with the throttle. This mean very hard braking and while it would be expected on the track how often does this happen in road driving?

Not so. Like any skill, it just takes time to get right. I've been rev matching both on and off the braes for over ten years and I still fluff it occasionally.

It's immensely satisfying to get right though.

Incidentally, it's possible to rev match on the brakes in almost any vehicle. I was doing it in a Renault mini-bus at the 'Ring a few weeks back.

All this talk of 'you need to have the sport button engaged' in a 911, is total and utter pish

Edited by GentlePersuasion on Friday 12th April 10:50

[Far Cough]

The pedal box in the porsche makes H&T very easy. Not wearing docker boots makes life a little easier too !

[f1ashgordon]

Because the brakes aren't over assisted I find my 997 the easiest car to H&T (I just roll the ball of the foot over), the brake pedal gives a good platform.

I do it even in town/normal driving,I still rev match preferring this over the brakes also.

Seldom double de clutch in it, doesn't seem to need it.

Figure out how best to get your foot touching both brake and accelerator, might well be H&T, might be the ball of the foot slid over, not everyone's ankle and hip mobility is equal.

It will not affect an emergency stop. To H&T you need to plan ahead, expect that you're going to need to, foot positioned ready, or at least prepared to be. Emergency stop is a different mindset, it happens and you react.

Have you got to grips with simple rev matching, no brake involved?

Once you've got that down, understand it, the feel of it and when to use it, you just add in the brake in situations you need more than engine braking (and these will become apparent once you're used to rev matching). The whole reason for H&T. Simple.

Not to mention you've bought a glorious sounding car and this is another opportunity to hear it and engage with it.

Practice, lots. And it is very much worth it. Or get PDK and have it done for you, but either way you need to experience it. It makes all the difference.

@ dasilva, I don't think anyone's talking about double de clutching.

Edited by f1ashgordon on Friday 12th April 11:49

[thegoose]

Dasilva997 said:

stuff

I think you're confusing the need to match speeds for the sake of a non-synchromesh gearbox, rather than just to match engine and road speeds. It is not "needless" to increase the engine speed to match the road speed for the new lower gear when down-shifting - and this can be done with the clutch pedal depressed whilst moving the gear lever.



Anyway, here's a basic technique that anyone can try for demonstration of how and why rev-matching works (pick an empty road or private track and try it at your own risk):

1) Drive along at say 30mph in 4th gear, with a steady throttle
2) Do not adjust the throttle
3) Do not use the clutch
4) Move the gear lever to neutral, then in to 3rd in a 2-stage movement

What should happen is that the engine speed increases when you take it out of 4th, and this is the correct speed to slot it straight into 3rd smoothly. On modern gearboxes if the engine speed isn't right you'll usually find it just won't go into 3rd (rather than crash/crunch etc), in which case start again at 1).

What this should demonstrate is that if engine & road speeds are matched that the clutch isn't necessary, and the change is smoother (or can be) than using the clutch without matching the engine speed, hence achieving far greater mechanical sympathy than using the clutch to do all the work to deal with the mis-matched engine & road speeds.