Would this restoration be worth doing? (1970 2.2S)
Discussion
A Sunday chat:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4025013.htm
Bridey springs to mind as he regularly expresses interest in the 70's stuff to run alongside his GT3.
1970 2.2S, numbers matching, in need of complete bodywork restoration, for sale at offers over £38,000.
Gorgeous colour and seems very original. I used to have a 2.4S many moons ago, and sold it for about £8000. It was very nice.
£38k, blimey. How many of you would go for this?
What would it cost, what could you get back?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/4025013.htm
Bridey springs to mind as he regularly expresses interest in the 70's stuff to run alongside his GT3.
1970 2.2S, numbers matching, in need of complete bodywork restoration, for sale at offers over £38,000.
Gorgeous colour and seems very original. I used to have a 2.4S many moons ago, and sold it for about £8000. It was very nice.
£38k, blimey. How many of you would go for this?
What would it cost, what could you get back?
Depends on true state of body and desired level of final finish - and whether engine has been properly done. A really good restoration using best people can cost 100k or more. And finished product worth £80k+. Most asked for 2.2s so far is just over 100k (great provenance and top resto) - excluding Steve McQueen's 1 million pounder of course!
drmark said:
Depends on true state of body and desired level of final finish - and whether engine has been properly done. A really good restoration using best people can cost 100k or more. And finished product worth £80k+. Most asked for 2.2s so far is just over 100k (great provenance and top resto) - excluding Steve McQueen's 1 million pounder of course!
I like the honesty of the seller but if you think a full resto excluding the engine is 100k plus then at 38k it all seems a little too much. That said its a stunning prospect This is 60k matching numbers looks pretty smart too
. http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C298416#
also what if someone that wasnt a 'recongised' porsche restoration specialist carried out thhe work how would that affect its future value providing it was done properly??
Edited by 911god on Sunday 1st July 15:45
Edited by 911god on Sunday 1st July 15:57
Bodywork is the killer with these cars - which is why the matching numbers car looks cheap. Could be ££££ worth of bodywork under that paint if original. Not even Californian cars are truly rust free. Easy to lose 500 hours and 5-10k on body parts on a rust ridden 911 done properly.
As for recognised Porsche specialists, I would not buy a restored early 911 that had not been under one of the best names - Nick Moss (early911), Alan Drayson (Canford Classics), Autofarm, Roger Bray, Barry Carter, either Bainbridge brother, Bob Watson etc.
Take the engine and gearbox - you can get a "rebuild" of both for around 5k, but mine cost close to 20k, and I know of one 2.4 s that has bills from a leading builder for £19.5 k for the engine alone. And labour rates are not that different.
PS 100k is top budget - I am sure you can get a great job for closer to 50k. But end value not only pointer -nothing is more satisfying than saving a car and doing a quality restoration. Also the end product may not cover your costs in terms of worth but it willl not depreciate like a modern 911, has no road tax, is cheap to run and insure and is sooooo much cooler than a new Porsche. IMO anyway (ex GT3 owner).
As for recognised Porsche specialists, I would not buy a restored early 911 that had not been under one of the best names - Nick Moss (early911), Alan Drayson (Canford Classics), Autofarm, Roger Bray, Barry Carter, either Bainbridge brother, Bob Watson etc.
Take the engine and gearbox - you can get a "rebuild" of both for around 5k, but mine cost close to 20k, and I know of one 2.4 s that has bills from a leading builder for £19.5 k for the engine alone. And labour rates are not that different.
PS 100k is top budget - I am sure you can get a great job for closer to 50k. But end value not only pointer -nothing is more satisfying than saving a car and doing a quality restoration. Also the end product may not cover your costs in terms of worth but it willl not depreciate like a modern 911, has no road tax, is cheap to run and insure and is sooooo much cooler than a new Porsche. IMO anyway (ex GT3 owner).
Edited by drmark on Sunday 1st July 16:57
Edited by drmark on Sunday 1st July 17:00
drmark said:
Bodywork is the killer with these cars - which is why the matching numbers car looks cheap. Could be ££££ worth of bodywork under that paint if original. Not even Californian cars are truly rust free. Easy to lose 500 hours and 5-10k on body parts on a rust ridden 911 done properly.
As for recognised Porsche specialists, I would not buy a restored early 911 that had not been under one of the best names - Nick Moss (early911), Alan Drayson (Canford Classics), Autofarm, Roger Bray, Barry Carter, either Bainbridge brother, Bob Watson etc.
Take the engine and gearbox - you can get a "rebuild" of both for around 5k, but mine cost close to 20k, and I know of one 2.4 s that has bills from a leading builder for £19.5 k for the engine alone. And labour rates are not that different.
PS 100k is top budget - I am sure you can get a great job for closer to 50k. But end value not only pointer -nothing is more satisfying than saving a car and doing a quality restoration. Also the end product may not cover your costs in terms of worth but it willl not depreciate like a modern 911, has no road tax, is cheap to run and insure and is sooooo much cooler than a new Porsche. IMO anyway (ex GT3 owner).
The french one for 60 looks maybe a better prospect cost wise if it's rust free As for recognised Porsche specialists, I would not buy a restored early 911 that had not been under one of the best names - Nick Moss (early911), Alan Drayson (Canford Classics), Autofarm, Roger Bray, Barry Carter, either Bainbridge brother, Bob Watson etc.
Take the engine and gearbox - you can get a "rebuild" of both for around 5k, but mine cost close to 20k, and I know of one 2.4 s that has bills from a leading builder for £19.5 k for the engine alone. And labour rates are not that different.
PS 100k is top budget - I am sure you can get a great job for closer to 50k. But end value not only pointer -nothing is more satisfying than saving a car and doing a quality restoration. Also the end product may not cover your costs in terms of worth but it willl not depreciate like a modern 911, has no road tax, is cheap to run and insure and is sooooo much cooler than a new Porsche. IMO anyway (ex GT3 owner).
Edited by drmark on Sunday 1st July 16:57
Edited by drmark on Sunday 1st July 17:00
drmark said:
As for recognised Porsche specialists, I would not buy a restored early 911 that had not been under one of the best names - Nick Moss (early911), Alan Drayson (Canford Classics), Autofarm, Roger Bray, Barry Carter, either Bainbridge brother, Bob Watson etc.
Have Bob and Neil branched out into restoration now? In my day they were the goto guys for big power out of your turbo....I would also take issue with some of the other names on your list...no names etc but I looked at a resto one of them did the other day and it is a pile of cr@p...A "name" is no guarantee of good work...although if I were to name one person whose management of a retoration impresses me, it'd be Andy Prill...I guess using his services to manage a restoration is not cheap, because he seems a perfectionist...
Andy another one - not meant to be definitive list (lots of good people out there like Tuthills). Mike and Neil on the list as two of best engine / gearbox guys out there. Bob another. Barry Carter a legend in the welding world. Alan Drayson has built some incredible cars (often using the services of the previous names). Nick Moss, Autofarm and Roger Bray widely recommended during my search but never worked on any of my cars, so no personal experience.
You are right - a "name" is never a guarantee. But equally neither is rebuilding an early six with ancillaries like MFI something any engine builder can do with ease, or restoring a rotten chassis something any body shop can do ( some of the restorers I researched did not even have correct jig).
Edited to add vested interest : Alan Drayson managed my car's restoration. Here is John Glynn's impression of the result in an article for Total 911 magazine : http://www.total911.com/back-issues/phoenix-rising...
You are right - a "name" is never a guarantee. But equally neither is rebuilding an early six with ancillaries like MFI something any engine builder can do with ease, or restoring a rotten chassis something any body shop can do ( some of the restorers I researched did not even have correct jig).
Edited to add vested interest : Alan Drayson managed my car's restoration. Here is John Glynn's impression of the result in an article for Total 911 magazine : http://www.total911.com/back-issues/phoenix-rising...
Edited by drmark on Sunday 1st July 20:35
uktrailmonster said:
It amazes me how much some people are willing to spend on a rusty old pile of junk simply because it has matching numbers. Investment or money pit? Tough call these days.
Indeed, but alternative view is: "Amazing what some people will spend on a new Porsche these days and then watch it lose 50K over 3 years". Now that is the definition of a money pit. And some of us prefer old school to new cars whatever the cost - and the lucky ones have both.drmark said:
Indeed, but alternative view is: "Amazing what some people will spend on a new Porsche these days and then watch it lose 50K over 3 years". Now that is the definition of a money pit. And some of us prefer old school to new cars whatever the cost - and the lucky ones have both.
Don't get me wrong I love air cooled Porsche, but some of the cars I've seen recently have been expensive piles of junk - matching numbers junk. I'd rather pay good money for a well prepared non-matching car. As for wasting money on brand new cars I agree entirely - it's another extreme. . But if you have the money to burn then great.
uktrailmonster said:
Don't get me wrong I love air cooled Porsche, but some of the cars I've seen recently have been expensive piles of junk - matching numbers junk. I'd rather pay good money for a well prepared non-matching car.
As for wasting money on brand new cars I agree entirely - it's another extreme. . But if you have the money to burn then great.
Overpriced junk is overpriced junk whatever the era. Nothing special about the early cars in that respect. Take the value of a fully restored matching numbers car and work backwards in cost to determine if a particular car for sale is good or bad value. You can only do that by actually seeing the car in question. The price of the 2.2S would seem to have left about 30-40K in the pot for restoration.As for wasting money on brand new cars I agree entirely - it's another extreme. . But if you have the money to burn then great.
Ian.
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