996 at a non specialist dealer - is this a walk away job?
Discussion
So today I went to see a 1998 996 C2 priced at just under 10k at a local non-specialist dealer, who has medium to what I'd call high priced used cars, from Jags and Range Rovers to Gallardos etc (say 5 - 70k pricing). It was a flying visit, no test drive, didn't even start it up, as I just wanted to see if it was worth a saturday morning to view properly and maybe a specialist inspection.
It has 82k on the clock and looked pretty good, 2 alloys starting to lose their finish in parts. Apparently it has FSH which he raved about (I didn't go through this yet) and last service was 2k ago. Paint, body & interior looked good (viewed in the dry). Some scuffs underneath at the front, looked to be only on the plastic.
I mentioned to the boss that i would like a specialist inspection and he said he would advise against it. Reasons he gave were things like:
They try to cover themselves and so list every imperfection which he felt puts too many people off (not this car specifically just in general)
They take the mickey, don't give you a time they'll call and when they turn up they take 2 hours.
Its a 13 year old car, so it will be a long list (again off putting)
I'm better spending the money on extending the warranty (from him I assume), though he did say he'd include a 3 month warranty with cover up to 2k per claim.
He'd be happy for me to get my local/regular mechanic to take a look and would lend him diagnostic equipment to use if needed.
Needless to say I was caught a little off guard at this. Is it a common stance among this type of non specialist performance dealer or dealers in general for that matter?
I can sort of see where he's coming from with the long list of tiny faults/imperfections. I've had an RAC inspection on a previous buy and although I wouldn't use a non specialist for a specialist car, I was surprised at just how must was highlighted on a very good car that was utterly dependable for 10 years ownership. Or am I just being a mug?
I haven't put a link to the car as I don't want any naming issues. The dealer seemed reasonably keen and was a nice enough guy. The premises a warehouse type building with a front office on a high street amongst some indie tyre shops and a couple of mechanics, nothing remotely plush, though some of the stock was.
Apologies for the essay. Opinions would be much appreciated.
It has 82k on the clock and looked pretty good, 2 alloys starting to lose their finish in parts. Apparently it has FSH which he raved about (I didn't go through this yet) and last service was 2k ago. Paint, body & interior looked good (viewed in the dry). Some scuffs underneath at the front, looked to be only on the plastic.
I mentioned to the boss that i would like a specialist inspection and he said he would advise against it. Reasons he gave were things like:
They try to cover themselves and so list every imperfection which he felt puts too many people off (not this car specifically just in general)
They take the mickey, don't give you a time they'll call and when they turn up they take 2 hours.
Its a 13 year old car, so it will be a long list (again off putting)
I'm better spending the money on extending the warranty (from him I assume), though he did say he'd include a 3 month warranty with cover up to 2k per claim.
He'd be happy for me to get my local/regular mechanic to take a look and would lend him diagnostic equipment to use if needed.
Needless to say I was caught a little off guard at this. Is it a common stance among this type of non specialist performance dealer or dealers in general for that matter?
I can sort of see where he's coming from with the long list of tiny faults/imperfections. I've had an RAC inspection on a previous buy and although I wouldn't use a non specialist for a specialist car, I was surprised at just how must was highlighted on a very good car that was utterly dependable for 10 years ownership. Or am I just being a mug?
I haven't put a link to the car as I don't want any naming issues. The dealer seemed reasonably keen and was a nice enough guy. The premises a warehouse type building with a front office on a high street amongst some indie tyre shops and a couple of mechanics, nothing remotely plush, though some of the stock was.
Apologies for the essay. Opinions would be much appreciated.
I'd suggest insisting on the inspection you want, but be reasonable and explain to him what you'd be doing it for. For example, if an inspection says brake pads are 50% worn, so what on a car of that age? Likewise, tyre treads are down to 4mm (Porsche Approved minimum is only 3mm). Make it clear you're not bothered about "small scuff on underside of front bumper" or "bonnet shows signs of having been painted in the past" type stuff, you just want to make sure it's a good sound car in respect of its age and mileage.
If the warranty company don't want to inspect the car beforehand they have good reason not to pay up if a claim's made, and they're not known for being all that ready to do so in the first place, so I'd certainly question the wisdom of upping cover.
The idea of warranty cover is that it covers unexpected things that happen in the future, it's not a free ticket to get existing faults fixed for free.
If the warranty company don't want to inspect the car beforehand they have good reason not to pay up if a claim's made, and they're not known for being all that ready to do so in the first place, so I'd certainly question the wisdom of upping cover.
The idea of warranty cover is that it covers unexpected things that happen in the future, it's not a free ticket to get existing faults fixed for free.Personally at that price point I would not shell out up to 5% of the purchase price on an inspection. Instead I would look at the car and paperwork very carefully, drive it and take a view based on that. The 5% you did not spend could be usefully used to attend to any issues you find like tyres, brake pads.
squirejo said:
Personally at that price point I would not shell out up to 5% of the purchase price on an inspection. Instead I would look at the car and paperwork very carefully, drive it and take a view based on that. The 5% you did not spend could be usefully used to attend to any issues you find like tyres, brake pads.
It depends on a buyers capability to check it though. This car could be a little gem or total disaster area. MTR
squirejo said:
Personally at that price point I would not shell out up to 5% of the purchase price on an inspection. Instead I would look at the car and paperwork very carefully, drive it and take a view based on that. The 5% you did not spend could be usefully used to attend to any issues you find like tyres, brake pads.
just driving the car and looking at paper work will not show up possible large bills. If you are interested get it inspected. A thorough inspection by a trusted independant Porsche specialist is a must. It's just too much money if you get it wrong. As Goose says make it clear to the seller that your not interested in the trivial things like minor scuffs, stone chips etc etc. You just want to make sure you are buying a good car.
Big bills have a habit of lurking round the corner inspected or not- but if indeed the car has full history, and last serviced 2k miles ago I would want to know by whom, see the service sheet and probably speak to the garage that did the work and especially if it has been serviced by the same place a few times. If that was kwikfit balham who just did an oil change and stamped the book, you have just walked away and saved 500 quid. If however its an OPC or a specialist who you can have a chat with, move forward. No point even contemplating shelling out cash until you have reached this point.
Was basically a bit too scared of unexpected large faults to go without an inspection, but I know where you're coming from.
Regarding Diagnostic checks: What can my trusted local non specialist mechanic check using the diagnostics? engine fault history? anything the specialists do he couldn't?
Regarding Diagnostic checks: What can my trusted local non specialist mechanic check using the diagnostics? engine fault history? anything the specialists do he couldn't?
If you inspect a car for someone you don't know, you have nothing to lose by rubbishing it- I.e no comeback from your customer, the prospective buyer. If you gave the car he paid you to inspect a poor review then he bought it anyway, well, you advised against it, not your problem. Plus, that customer may well want you to go inspect something else- more money for you!
If you advise buy, there's no more money from that customer and if the car later has an issue you overlooked, or even wasnt there at the time you inspected it then guess who would be blamed?
Do these inspectors ever give any car a 100% buy this car immediately, it's fault free report? I doubt it.
If you advise buy, there's no more money from that customer and if the car later has an issue you overlooked, or even wasnt there at the time you inspected it then guess who would be blamed?
Do these inspectors ever give any car a 100% buy this car immediately, it's fault free report? I doubt it.
highway said:
Do these inspectors ever give any car a 100% buy this car immediately, it's fault free report? I doubt it.
Thats a pretty cynical view I think. You are basically suggesting that the inspector can get more 'sales' by advising against cars?I dont believe any of the top guys would do that would they? For a start, the dealers would soon cotton on and refuse them access surely!
If anything, I would suggest the reverse is more likely. Its a small Porsche world. Magazines, garages, sales, inspections etc. I'm not suggesting brown envelopes. Its much more subtle than that. Some of the magazine 'Specialist' reviews don't sit right with me.
But hey, its the way of the world. I'm a big boy.
MTR
It is an interesting question and I can understand what the dealer is saying. From our experience and we do these (PPI) quite regularly, on older cars it is usually the case that the list is longer. And then becomes the issue.
The purpose in our mind of doing a PPI, especially with older models, is to not only highlight all issues, but to say whether we think the price being asked is good, given it's condition, and the condition of similar cars of model and age that we see on a regular basis.
If I take a simple example. A 964 - it is already an old car, and in most cases you would expect the list to be a reasonable one unless the owner has maintained regularly and attended to the usual issues with this model. I would say that £15k buys a decent one that will need some TLC, but not major. If you look at the market, good ones at £20k+. So if one comes in, and it is priced at say £14,995 then imo it would need to be roughly in line with other ones at this price.
And here is the issue. If that car needs £5k of work immediately, does that mean that it should be £10k? Well not necessarily, because for the age of the car, you cannot expect not to spend money on maybe bringing the interior up to spec, or some paintwork. You have to accept that it is a 20 year old. If you want a spotless interior, then that is not the sellers fault that it is 20 years old.
In this case, we might say that the car, depending on the list of £5k, might in our opinion be a good buy at say anything less than £12k, but value for money at say £12-13.5k, given that one that is in good condition for its year can be found for around that price.
I think if you accept and don't use the entire list of faults as a method of reducing the price from the asking price, then there is nothing wrong. Maybe that dealer has had this approach already before and hence his stance.
On a 996 for 10k, you should still get an inspection. We had a customer who recently bought one, and then PPI afterwards. He got shot of it very quickly.
The purpose in our mind of doing a PPI, especially with older models, is to not only highlight all issues, but to say whether we think the price being asked is good, given it's condition, and the condition of similar cars of model and age that we see on a regular basis.
If I take a simple example. A 964 - it is already an old car, and in most cases you would expect the list to be a reasonable one unless the owner has maintained regularly and attended to the usual issues with this model. I would say that £15k buys a decent one that will need some TLC, but not major. If you look at the market, good ones at £20k+. So if one comes in, and it is priced at say £14,995 then imo it would need to be roughly in line with other ones at this price.
And here is the issue. If that car needs £5k of work immediately, does that mean that it should be £10k? Well not necessarily, because for the age of the car, you cannot expect not to spend money on maybe bringing the interior up to spec, or some paintwork. You have to accept that it is a 20 year old. If you want a spotless interior, then that is not the sellers fault that it is 20 years old.
In this case, we might say that the car, depending on the list of £5k, might in our opinion be a good buy at say anything less than £12k, but value for money at say £12-13.5k, given that one that is in good condition for its year can be found for around that price.
I think if you accept and don't use the entire list of faults as a method of reducing the price from the asking price, then there is nothing wrong. Maybe that dealer has had this approach already before and hence his stance.
On a 996 for 10k, you should still get an inspection. We had a customer who recently bought one, and then PPI afterwards. He got shot of it very quickly.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Moose, I think the issue is that at this price it opens up a lot of buyers. And the problem is that a lot are "not competent buyers". They see an opportunity to live the dream of owing a 911, and for most people £10k is a lot of cash. You are right, you cannot inspect everything, and even an engine that has good compression does not mean it will in one month.
We bought a donor car for a project for a customer of ours. We took 2 PPIs to find one, after the first one was at a dealer that was described as very good condition and was frankly a joke. Fortunately there are people like Tom at 911virgin who had a great one sitting around that was perfect and as described.
I currently run a Porsche specialst shop that very rarely sells cars, but does carry out a lot of PPIs for private customers, whether the car is from a used car dealer or private seller.
My view is that the car will hopefully coming back for service and repairs in the future and to have a "phone call" involving something that was missed or noted as an "in the future" repair is not good.
Therefore, the techs and I are both realistic and fairly tough on cars.
My opinion is that no-one needs a Porsche(or similar), but they want one, therefore should always buy the best within the budget and always have a good PPI.
I always ask the seller if (for 986/996 etc)there are two keys and service history. One key and no books (in the USA)virtually always means it was an auction car.
A lot of cars are done for out of state (or out of country, last one exported to Australia)clients, so I take photos of what is found and a long report with a repair estimate.
I have seen cars that if the client didn't buy, I certainly would and some that didn't even make it into the shop because they were that bad....
My view is that the car will hopefully coming back for service and repairs in the future and to have a "phone call" involving something that was missed or noted as an "in the future" repair is not good.
Therefore, the techs and I are both realistic and fairly tough on cars.
My opinion is that no-one needs a Porsche(or similar), but they want one, therefore should always buy the best within the budget and always have a good PPI.
I always ask the seller if (for 986/996 etc)there are two keys and service history. One key and no books (in the USA)virtually always means it was an auction car.
A lot of cars are done for out of state (or out of country, last one exported to Australia)clients, so I take photos of what is found and a long report with a repair estimate.
I have seen cars that if the client didn't buy, I certainly would and some that didn't even make it into the shop because they were that bad....
996ttalot said:
Moose, I think the issue is that at this price it opens up a lot of buyers. And the problem is that a lot are "not competent buyers". They see an opportunity to live the dream of owing a 911, and for most people £10k is a lot of cash.
You are right, you cannot inspect everything, and even an engine that has good compression does not mean it will in one month.
We bought a donor car for a project for a customer of ours. We took 2 PPIs to find one, after the first one was at a dealer that was described as very good condition and was frankly a joke. Fortunately there are people like Tom at 911virgin who had a great one sitting around that was perfect and as described.
Ken, would you say an inspection is a waist of money or worth while having one done? Not everyone is an expert. You are right, you cannot inspect everything, and even an engine that has good compression does not mean it will in one month.
We bought a donor car for a project for a customer of ours. We took 2 PPIs to find one, after the first one was at a dealer that was described as very good condition and was frankly a joke. Fortunately there are people like Tom at 911virgin who had a great one sitting around that was perfect and as described.
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