New warranty policy re over revs
Discussion
My Cayman S have just come up for warranty renewal. As part of the 111 point check, the OPC (which I believe the largest in the country) pulled the "over rev" report from the DME. They've never done this before on my car AFAIK. It gave the following results:
Total engine 1211.4 hours (approx 37,000 miles) on the clock - I bought if from the same OPC at 17,000 miles.
Apparently the T&Cs on the warranty have changed since last time (new underwriter this year apparently) and because there are ignitions above Ranges 1-3, they need to do extra work to send photos and data to Porsche HQ to determine whether they're prepared to extend the warranty or not - c £400 at my expense just to ask the question.
[There's a long discussion about this on the following thread from last year if you're interested.]
So as you can imagine I'm pissed off for several reasons:
All in all seems rather inconsistent policy that will serve only one purpose - to lighten my wallet.
I'll relay on when I hear back from Porsche HQ, but thought in the meantime I'd give others a heads up.
| Range | Ignitions | Event time (engine hrs) |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 12267 | 809.4 |
| 2 | 370 | 809.4 |
| 3 | 12 | 809.4 |
| 4 | 2 | 809.4 |
| 5 | 2 | 809.4 |
| 6 | 1 | 98.6 |
Total engine 1211.4 hours (approx 37,000 miles) on the clock - I bought if from the same OPC at 17,000 miles.
Apparently the T&Cs on the warranty have changed since last time (new underwriter this year apparently) and because there are ignitions above Ranges 1-3, they need to do extra work to send photos and data to Porsche HQ to determine whether they're prepared to extend the warranty or not - c £400 at my expense just to ask the question.
[There's a long discussion about this on the following thread from last year if you're interested.]
So as you can imagine I'm pissed off for several reasons:
- the ignitions in ranges 4-6 can be counted on one hand - which as others have argued before are theoretically impossible, representing a few milliseconds of actual time, and are most likely data errors
- a range 6 event at c 100 hours (assuming its not a data error) happened long before they sold it to me
- a range 4-5 event at c 800 hours (i.e. 400 engine hours ago) likely happened before the last warranty was sold c 12,000 miles ago
All in all seems rather inconsistent policy that will serve only one purpose - to lighten my wallet.
I'll relay on when I hear back from Porsche HQ, but thought in the meantime I'd give others a heads up.
Hardly a shock that they try to minimise their exposure. Over revs, then compression checks and maybe there will be more steps later in the year. It's a good warranty and not scary money. Nobody forces us to take it.
Maybe a case for an independent inspection on an OPC car for the cautious buyer.
Maybe a case for an independent inspection on an OPC car for the cautious buyer.
Magic919 said:
Hardly a shock that they try to minimise their exposure.
Agreed - but to change the rules halfway through the game seems somewhat unfair.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Quite - I can only imagine that they were responsible for the first of the 2 hits in Range 4 and 5, as it appears from the 809.4 hrs event it hits all levels on the way up/down.mrdemon said:
people do say it's not possable to get overs revs like 1 and 2 in Ignitions.
So I would not be paying for that. and your dealer needs to talk to Porsche UK about it.
That's certainly going to be first argument - strikes me as a glitch in the data logging/probe circuit causing false positives.So I would not be paying for that. and your dealer needs to talk to Porsche UK about it.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes, but the 809.4 would have overridden the lower number at 4 if a lower number was recorded there when range 6 was (supposedly) reached?I can't see how you can have a value of 2 in ranges 4&5, wouldnt 4 be a higher value if 5 was reached? If, as a few people have said on here that it is not possible to have anything less than 10 ignitions, why dont all OPC's know this? It's annoying that you have to run to the highest authority, PCGB, to find out if something is right or wrong.
A bit O/T but I had the same hassle with N ratings on my tyres because the OPC's didnt all sing off the same hymn sheet. Finally got it straightened out regarding mixing N rated tyres on each axle on the GT2.
cragswinter said:
My mate had to stump up the extra on his 997 turbo tip to do the checks.
Quite how a tiptronic managed the over revs was beyond all concerned.
I assumed that a Tip/PDK was impossible to get into ranges 4-6.Quite how a tiptronic managed the over revs was beyond all concerned.
FFS, with the contrived data logging, I reckon some probably leave Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen with range 4-6.
They did this to me, the OPC did the test without charge and the car passed and I was offered warranty . However they handled the matter so badly by giving wrong information. The service manager and dealer principal were out of their depth , it was clear they had little idea about what they hell was going on.
My car was a ex press car, initially they said the over rev was during its time with Porsche, that changed to it was done within the last seventeen hours is an example of the information I was getting. Funny as it may seem I can clearly remember how my car was driven in the last seventeen hours.
Apart from the dealers drivers, no one has driven my car since I purchased it four years ago so I know the history and there is no ambiguity . When a business calls my integrity in to question its time to stop doing business with them and that is exactly what I have done.
My car was a ex press car, initially they said the over rev was during its time with Porsche, that changed to it was done within the last seventeen hours is an example of the information I was getting. Funny as it may seem I can clearly remember how my car was driven in the last seventeen hours.
Apart from the dealers drivers, no one has driven my car since I purchased it four years ago so I know the history and there is no ambiguity . When a business calls my integrity in to question its time to stop doing business with them and that is exactly what I have done.
The 2's and 1's I would say are anomolous (based on my understanding that it is a record of an ignition beyond a certain range), but getting Porsche to agree to that is another matter.
The table shows that there have been at least two overrev events - one at 96.8 hours and another at 809.4 hours. These would be overwritten by newer overrev events, as the "engine hour runtime" value increases.
The fact the ignitions cascade upwards as you go down the ranges is also typical when you imagine that the engine will be in the lower ranges for longer as it "recovers" from the higher range overrev.
It would seem to be the case that the car has missed a gearshift at least twice in its life.
911Thrasher said:
Excuse my ignorance - but how does the above table read?
If I'm reading it correctly the engine experienced an overrev into Range 6 after 96.8 engine hours (how many hours the engine has been running since new), and another into Range 5 809.4 hours in. The fact the lower ranges have the same engine hours is usual since you'd have to go past the lower ranges to get to the higher ones (if that makes sense).The table shows that there have been at least two overrev events - one at 96.8 hours and another at 809.4 hours. These would be overwritten by newer overrev events, as the "engine hour runtime" value increases.
The fact the ignitions cascade upwards as you go down the ranges is also typical when you imagine that the engine will be in the lower ranges for longer as it "recovers" from the higher range overrev.
It would seem to be the case that the car has missed a gearshift at least twice in its life.
Edited by Durzel on Friday 9th March 08:21
911Thrasher said:
Excuse my ignorance - but how does the above table read?
Ranges 1 to 6 are RPM bands above the red line. e.g. Range 1 is 7300-7500 RPM, Range 2 7500-7700 etc. The exact RPM min and max per range will differ by engine type.The Ignitions counts how many times the spark plugs have fired in that range. My rudimentary mechanics would suggest that on a 6 cylinder engine there are three ignitions for every 1 revolution of the engine.
The engine hours is the running time since new of the last event to be recorded in that range.
So the bottom road reads that there was 1 ignition in Range 6 at 98.6 hours, meaning that close to 100 hours of engine running time since new, there was a single spark event in the 9500+ RPM range.
HTH.
This is for 997 but I think it's the same for Cayman.
Range 1: 7300-7500rpm
Range 2: 7500-7700
Range 3: 7700-7900
Range 4: 7900-8400
Range 5: 8400-9500
Range 6: 9500-11000
I can't see how it's physically possible to only get 1 or 2 ignitions personally, but I'm not an engineer. A single revolution of the engine would produce 3 ignitions wouldn't it?
Range 1: 7300-7500rpm
Range 2: 7500-7700
Range 3: 7700-7900
Range 4: 7900-8400
Range 5: 8400-9500
Range 6: 9500-11000
I can't see how it's physically possible to only get 1 or 2 ignitions personally, but I'm not an engineer. A single revolution of the engine would produce 3 ignitions wouldn't it?
Edited by Durzel on Friday 9th March 08:27
At 98.6 hrs the car hit rev range 6, for only a single ignition?
At 809.4 it hit 5 for only a single ignition.
To hit the 6, you need to pass through the others both ways, and I'm fairly sure that a single turn of the engine produces at least 3 ignitions.
So, at 9500 rpm-28500 ignitions per minute, so that would mean, if my calculations are correct, it spent 0.002 secs in 6, and 0.004 secs in 4 and 5.
Somehow, whoever did it, is a seriuosly quick shifter.
Ot, there is a fault with the readings
More worringly, you haven't hit the rev limiter in 13000 miles. You're simply not trying hard enough
At 809.4 it hit 5 for only a single ignition.
To hit the 6, you need to pass through the others both ways, and I'm fairly sure that a single turn of the engine produces at least 3 ignitions.
So, at 9500 rpm-28500 ignitions per minute, so that would mean, if my calculations are correct, it spent 0.002 secs in 6, and 0.004 secs in 4 and 5.
Somehow, whoever did it, is a seriuosly quick shifter.
Ot, there is a fault with the readings
More worringly, you haven't hit the rev limiter in 13000 miles. You're simply not trying hard enough
Tino said:
At 98.6 hrs the car hit rev range 6, for only a single ignition?
At 809.4 it hit 5 for only a single ignition.
To hit the 6, you need to pass through the others both ways, and I'm fairly sure that a single turn of the engine produces at least 3 ignitions.
So, at 9500 rpm-28500 ignitions per minute, so that would mean, if my calculations are correct, it spent 0.002 secs in 6, and 0.004 secs in 4 and 5.
Somehow, whoever did it, is a seriuosly quick shifter.
Ot, there is a fault with the readings
More worringly, you haven't hit the rev limiter in 13000 miles. You're simply not trying hard enough
I am absolutey convinced that there is fault with the recording on this information, one day it will come to light. Meanwhile Porsche are loosing customers good will built up over many years. At 809.4 it hit 5 for only a single ignition.
To hit the 6, you need to pass through the others both ways, and I'm fairly sure that a single turn of the engine produces at least 3 ignitions.
So, at 9500 rpm-28500 ignitions per minute, so that would mean, if my calculations are correct, it spent 0.002 secs in 6, and 0.004 secs in 4 and 5.
Somehow, whoever did it, is a seriuosly quick shifter.
Ot, there is a fault with the readings
More worringly, you haven't hit the rev limiter in 13000 miles. You're simply not trying hard enough
So this car has had one HUUUUUUUUUMUNGOUS (range 6) over rev early in its life, and at least one other big one (range 5) later on. There may be others less serious but we don't know.
The first one must have been something like 5th - 2nd rather than 5th - 4th.
The contract of insurance (warranty) is one year long, and when it expires the insurer is entitled to renew or not. I think the selling OPC are at fault here.
The first one must have been something like 5th - 2nd rather than 5th - 4th.
The contract of insurance (warranty) is one year long, and when it expires the insurer is entitled to renew or not. I think the selling OPC are at fault here.
Edited by Soovy on Friday 9th March 10:45
Soovy said:
So this car has had one HUUUUUUUUUMUNGOUS (range 6) over rev early in its life, and at least one other big one (range 5) later on. There may be others less serious but we don't know.
The first one must have been something like 5th - 2nd rather than 5th - 4th.
The contract of insurance (warranty) is one year long, and when it expires the insurer is entitled to renew or not. I think the selling OPC are at fault here.
Just for clarity I assume this post was made tongue in cheek as it absolutely is not what has happened.The first one must have been something like 5th - 2nd rather than 5th - 4th.
The contract of insurance (warranty) is one year long, and when it expires the insurer is entitled to renew or not. I think the selling OPC are at fault here.
Anything under 10 ignitions should pretty much be disregarded, particularly if there is no curve to the numbers below a particular rev range, ie you couldn't have the same number of 3,4,5 and 6 rev ranges. They would have to be larger at 3 with ever decreasing numbers up the rev range scale.
Of most concern is recent activity, ie. under 100 hours.
In this particular instance 13 ignitions at rev range 3, circa 4/100ths of a second over 400 hours ago would give little cause for concern and I would disregard the other numbers as they are so small and do not increase in the way you would expect for an actual event.
From the numbers I would suggest the car has had 1 single trip to rev range 2 which lasted a second. This would not be reason to worry especially as it happened 400 hours ago.
Henry
Henry-F said:
Soovy said:
So this car has had one HUUUUUUUUUMUNGOUS (range 6) over rev early in its life, and at least one other big one (range 5) later on. There may be others less serious but we don't know.
The first one must have been something like 5th - 2nd rather than 5th - 4th.
The contract of insurance (warranty) is one year long, and when it expires the insurer is entitled to renew or not. I think the selling OPC are at fault here.
Just for clarity I assume this post was made tongue in cheek as it absolutely is not what has happened.The first one must have been something like 5th - 2nd rather than 5th - 4th.
The contract of insurance (warranty) is one year long, and when it expires the insurer is entitled to renew or not. I think the selling OPC are at fault here.
Anything under 10 ignitions should pretty much be disregarded, particularly if there is no curve to the numbers below a particular rev range, ie you couldn't have the same number of 3,4,5 and 6 rev ranges. They would have to be larger at 3 with ever decreasing numbers up the rev range scale.
Of most concern is recent activity, ie. under 100 hours.
In this particular instance 13 ignitions at rev range 3, circa 4/100ths of a second over 400 hours ago would give little cause for concern and I would disregard the other numbers as they are so small and do not increase in the way you would expect for an actual event.
From the numbers I would suggest the car has had 1 single trip to rev range 2 which lasted a second. This would not be reason to worry especially as it happened 400 hours ago.
Henry
Happy to be corrected though....???
No, I don't think is does. The numbers relate to number of ignitions, not number of times that rev range has been visited.
It wouldn't be possible to have a single ignition at 6 with only 2 at 4 & 5. Given the engine's momentum you simply couldn't be in 6 for around 2/1000th of a second and on a separate occasion show another reading of a similar time in 4 & 5. I think you have to ignore 4,5 and 6. For what ever reason you sometimes get tiny erroneous readings like this. The rev range 3 activity could be real but it's tiny (circa 3-4/100ths of a second) and 400 hours ago.
Henry
It wouldn't be possible to have a single ignition at 6 with only 2 at 4 & 5. Given the engine's momentum you simply couldn't be in 6 for around 2/1000th of a second and on a separate occasion show another reading of a similar time in 4 & 5. I think you have to ignore 4,5 and 6. For what ever reason you sometimes get tiny erroneous readings like this. The rev range 3 activity could be real but it's tiny (circa 3-4/100ths of a second) and 400 hours ago.
Henry
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