brands and motorsport
Discussion
off topic somewhat but lotus just announced that they are going to be running in the ALMS series this year in conjunction with alex jobs racing, campaigning an evora in GTE class.
alex jobs is a big time porsche racing outfit so their move to become a factory backed lotus team for ALMS is quite a switch. now i know racing is business first and foremost but the RSRs have been having a tough time of it of late and the murmurs of dissatisfaction are getting a little louder.
link is here:
http://alexjobracing.com/12_news/0221.html
anyways, i posted a heads up on the lotus section since they are always in abundance at track days and banging on about their racing pedigree but interestingly there was nothing, just tumbleweeds. now maybe it because its an evora, maybe its other factors or maybe my post was just supremely dull but it got me thinking about the link between car brands and motorsport and how big a role does it actually play.
excluding ferrari, a unique proposition, the drip down effect from high level motorsport to the actual road cars is small and getting less and less due to regulations placed on road cars and the high level of development of the racing cars.
does an average sports car buyer care about the present day link to racing, is the historical association more powerful in actual fact and does anyone really follow the motorsport line ups and performances anymore. are the race cars seen now as being something completely separate and perhaps, uninteresting or is that overstating and they just dont feature on anyones radar at all any more.
from the lack of any cross over any more from the cars in the WRC to the road (the days of cosworth,quattro,integrale, evo and subaru are long gone) to the weird usage of current motorsport vehicle nomenclature by porsche on street cars i wonder if things have really completely separated and theres now two worlds with little awareness of each within the other.
alex jobs is a big time porsche racing outfit so their move to become a factory backed lotus team for ALMS is quite a switch. now i know racing is business first and foremost but the RSRs have been having a tough time of it of late and the murmurs of dissatisfaction are getting a little louder.
link is here:
http://alexjobracing.com/12_news/0221.html
anyways, i posted a heads up on the lotus section since they are always in abundance at track days and banging on about their racing pedigree but interestingly there was nothing, just tumbleweeds. now maybe it because its an evora, maybe its other factors or maybe my post was just supremely dull but it got me thinking about the link between car brands and motorsport and how big a role does it actually play.
excluding ferrari, a unique proposition, the drip down effect from high level motorsport to the actual road cars is small and getting less and less due to regulations placed on road cars and the high level of development of the racing cars.
does an average sports car buyer care about the present day link to racing, is the historical association more powerful in actual fact and does anyone really follow the motorsport line ups and performances anymore. are the race cars seen now as being something completely separate and perhaps, uninteresting or is that overstating and they just dont feature on anyones radar at all any more.
from the lack of any cross over any more from the cars in the WRC to the road (the days of cosworth,quattro,integrale, evo and subaru are long gone) to the weird usage of current motorsport vehicle nomenclature by porsche on street cars i wonder if things have really completely separated and theres now two worlds with little awareness of each within the other.
Edited by fioran0 on Tuesday 28th February 21:37
I think you've hit the nail on the head Neil. Subaru failed (spectacularly IMO) to capitalise on their rally success in the way that Audi managed. I was surprised that BMW saw any real mileage in the Mini rally program (and possibly they woke up to the fact there wasn't, rather late in the game)
We both know that Porsche AG use their sporting heritage as and when it suits their needs, but it appears they couldn't really give a fig about their former engineering excellence and the benefits it paid in numerous race and rally wins.
I've currently got a Cayman R on loan. At the risk of upsetting many, it's a massive disappointment in many ways, not least the fabric door pulls ! In the 964 and 993 RS these actually worked better than the cheap and nasty plastic handles fitted to the "standard" cars. Their action was well thought out, you pulled them straight out from the door panel and they released the door in a satisfying, well engineered manner.
In a sop to these, they've fitted something similar in the Cayman, unlike those fitted to the earlier air cooled cars they appear to have been attached to the existing lever behind the trim panel, they are awkward to use and most definitely don't function in a pleasing manner. Their fitment looks to have been a hastily thought out idea that has been poorly executed.
In the early days of Porsche AG, modifications were made to improve on an existing design, be that to make it stronger, lighter or more efficient. Now the marketing department rule the roost rather than the engineers, as a result we're having sh*t faux RS door pulls fitted to appease/fool the traditionalist buyer that he's getting something "special" that harks back to the glory days. A bit like the balsa wood gearknob on the Carrera GT . . .
Rant over (but there's no doubt Porsche AG are on a VERY slippery slope)
We both know that Porsche AG use their sporting heritage as and when it suits their needs, but it appears they couldn't really give a fig about their former engineering excellence and the benefits it paid in numerous race and rally wins.
I've currently got a Cayman R on loan. At the risk of upsetting many, it's a massive disappointment in many ways, not least the fabric door pulls ! In the 964 and 993 RS these actually worked better than the cheap and nasty plastic handles fitted to the "standard" cars. Their action was well thought out, you pulled them straight out from the door panel and they released the door in a satisfying, well engineered manner.
In a sop to these, they've fitted something similar in the Cayman, unlike those fitted to the earlier air cooled cars they appear to have been attached to the existing lever behind the trim panel, they are awkward to use and most definitely don't function in a pleasing manner. Their fitment looks to have been a hastily thought out idea that has been poorly executed.
In the early days of Porsche AG, modifications were made to improve on an existing design, be that to make it stronger, lighter or more efficient. Now the marketing department rule the roost rather than the engineers, as a result we're having sh*t faux RS door pulls fitted to appease/fool the traditionalist buyer that he's getting something "special" that harks back to the glory days. A bit like the balsa wood gearknob on the Carrera GT . . .
Rant over (but there's no doubt Porsche AG are on a VERY slippery slope)
Slippydiff said:
I think you've hit the nail on the head Neil. Subaru failed (spectacularly IMO) to capitalise on their rally success in the way that Audi managed. I was surprised that BMW saw any real mileage in the Mini rally program (and possibly they woke up to the fact there wasn't, rather late in the game)
We both know that Porsche AG use their sporting heritage as and when it suits their needs, but it appears they couldn't really give a fig about their former engineering excellence and the benefits it paid in numerous race and rally wins.
I've currently got a Cayman R on loan. At the risk of upsetting many, it's a massive disappointment in many ways, not least the fabric door pulls ! In the 964 and 993 RS these actually worked better than the cheap and nasty plastic handles fitted to the "standard" cars. Their action was well thought out, you pulled them straight out from the door panel and they released the door in a satisfying, well engineered manner.
In a sop to these, they've fitted something similar in the Cayman, unlike those fitted to the earlier air cooled cars they appear to have been attached to the existing lever behind the trim panel, they are awkward to use and most definitely don't function in a pleasing manner. Their fitment looks to have been a hastily thought out idea that has been poorly executed.
In the early days of Porsche AG, modifications were made to improve on an existing design, be that to make it stronger, lighter or more efficient. Now the marketing department rule the roost rather than the engineers, as a result we're having sh*t faux RS door pulls fitted to appease/fool the traditionalist buyer that he's getting something "special" that harks back to the glory days. A bit like the balsa wood gearknob on the Carrera GT . . .
Rant over (but there's no doubt Porsche AG are on a VERY slippery slope)
That's a real shame. I agree with your observations re: the new found 'power of marketing'. What was the thing like to drive though? Aside from slightly shabby references back to the glory days, I imagine the car itself is sublime in it's setup. It seems the things that really matter (not interior tat but the real engineering gubbins) is still largely engineering led. One of the few companies making sub £150k cars where that is still the case. I'd love a weekend with a manual Cayman R. Ultimately though, I love the arse-engined dynamics of the 911. Probably less so in the 991. I might try one and see what all the fuss is about first hand.We both know that Porsche AG use their sporting heritage as and when it suits their needs, but it appears they couldn't really give a fig about their former engineering excellence and the benefits it paid in numerous race and rally wins.
I've currently got a Cayman R on loan. At the risk of upsetting many, it's a massive disappointment in many ways, not least the fabric door pulls ! In the 964 and 993 RS these actually worked better than the cheap and nasty plastic handles fitted to the "standard" cars. Their action was well thought out, you pulled them straight out from the door panel and they released the door in a satisfying, well engineered manner.
In a sop to these, they've fitted something similar in the Cayman, unlike those fitted to the earlier air cooled cars they appear to have been attached to the existing lever behind the trim panel, they are awkward to use and most definitely don't function in a pleasing manner. Their fitment looks to have been a hastily thought out idea that has been poorly executed.
In the early days of Porsche AG, modifications were made to improve on an existing design, be that to make it stronger, lighter or more efficient. Now the marketing department rule the roost rather than the engineers, as a result we're having sh*t faux RS door pulls fitted to appease/fool the traditionalist buyer that he's getting something "special" that harks back to the glory days. A bit like the balsa wood gearknob on the Carrera GT . . .
Rant over (but there's no doubt Porsche AG are on a VERY slippery slope)
henry,
agreed, the pure engineering days are long gone, replaced by budgets and mass appeal it would seem. there seems to be flashes that some within hanker for the old days but for the most part the message is clear. while this isnt for me im sure it hardly has porsche AG worrying. the few have been replaced by the many. what never stops surprising me though is how in todays world, where anything can be looked up and viewed in seconds, how little recognition there is when stunts are being pulled (ala your straps). perhaps its the way of the new disposable age. thats for next weeks thread haha.
i suppose the heart of my point was thus, how much does porsches motorsport link play with current customers and owners?
porsche are still racing and racing hard but does the bulk of the porsche customer demographic care? do they know the current race car line up, what an RSR looks like for example or what racing porsche is active in. i suspect its not very significant and getting rapidly less so.
is porsches place as an historical name among motorsport enough to give it sports car brand credibility in a passing sense to the average customer and what its actually doing matter not a jot, is the average porsche customer even concerned about its historical racing prestige at all?
if porsche packed up and never went racing again would it matter to their road car customers.
my post on the lotus forum, a place that i would have assumed was full of track rats and racing and/or brand enthusiasts given the chat i hear from them at circuits, about their expansion into serious motorsport with a road car platform saw such little interest that it made me look deeply at my own front door and the questions it raised were surprising. i can speculate on why the lotus post garnered such little interest but was just curious how others viewed things in relation to porsche, or in general in the porsche forum since this is where i spend my time.
agreed, the pure engineering days are long gone, replaced by budgets and mass appeal it would seem. there seems to be flashes that some within hanker for the old days but for the most part the message is clear. while this isnt for me im sure it hardly has porsche AG worrying. the few have been replaced by the many. what never stops surprising me though is how in todays world, where anything can be looked up and viewed in seconds, how little recognition there is when stunts are being pulled (ala your straps). perhaps its the way of the new disposable age. thats for next weeks thread haha.
i suppose the heart of my point was thus, how much does porsches motorsport link play with current customers and owners?
porsche are still racing and racing hard but does the bulk of the porsche customer demographic care? do they know the current race car line up, what an RSR looks like for example or what racing porsche is active in. i suspect its not very significant and getting rapidly less so.
is porsches place as an historical name among motorsport enough to give it sports car brand credibility in a passing sense to the average customer and what its actually doing matter not a jot, is the average porsche customer even concerned about its historical racing prestige at all?
if porsche packed up and never went racing again would it matter to their road car customers.
my post on the lotus forum, a place that i would have assumed was full of track rats and racing and/or brand enthusiasts given the chat i hear from them at circuits, about their expansion into serious motorsport with a road car platform saw such little interest that it made me look deeply at my own front door and the questions it raised were surprising. i can speculate on why the lotus post garnered such little interest but was just curious how others viewed things in relation to porsche, or in general in the porsche forum since this is where i spend my time.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 29th February 00:20
drpep said:
That's a real shame. I agree with your observations re: the new found 'power of marketing'. What was the thing like to drive though? Aside from slightly shabby references back to the glory days, I imagine the car itself is sublime in it's setup. It seems the things that really matter (not interior tat but the real engineering gubbins) is still largely engineering led. One of the few companies making sub £150k cars where that is still the case. I'd love a weekend with a manual Cayman R. Ultimately though, I love the arse-engined dynamics of the 911. Probably less so in the 991. I might try one and see what all the fuss is about first hand.
Hi Nigel, I've got the car for the week, it's a manual too . . . . It's early days, but my initial impressions aren't as gushing as those of the press. In isolation it's a good car, but by the same token it could be an Audi, a BMW or something Japanese. After ALL my other 911 experiences it seems very bland. In Evos COTY issue, Monkey Harris said he wished Porsche would just stop messing around and build a GT3 version.When I read that comment originally, I thought it nonsense. Now I've driven it, I'm inclined to agree.
A GT3 feels more sharply honed in every aspect over a C2S or its equivalent, the R feels like it's lacking that final 20% of honing. The gearbox feels less like a rifle bolt (my demo car has less than 900 miles under its frankly uninspiring Bridgestones) the steering likewise.
After my first 75 miles behind the wheel I think Chris Harris is right, a GT3 version is just what's needed. Rather than a marketing led R, lets have a Motorsport and enthusiast led Cayman RS.
The car is obviously designed to be all things to all men, that clearly makes sense for Porsche from a business perspective, but how about offering a product that's more focused, if this means it has some shortcomings (I prefer to call it character) that the average Cayman owner wouldn't accept, so be it, he can still have an R or an S.
Perhaps the way forward is to offer an RS options list on the R, with a 380hp X?? engine upgrade, stiffer, lower suspension, Carrera GT buckets in Nomex, a cage, Cup carbon doors, lightweight wheels, delete all or most of the comfort items etc etc. Clearly you'd have to pay hansomely for the privilege of this special RS option list (something Porsche has never been shy about doing !) but my guess is you'd see plenty of enthusiasts speccing some fantastic cars. If the current crop of 997 GT3 RSs are anything to go by, the RS monika still has a special cache attached to it.
I'm planning to spend a few hours behind the wheel in one hit later in the week. A fuller report to follow . . . . .
Neil, I struggle to believe that the average Cayenne or Panamera owner cares one iota what engine is in the back of the car that may or may not have one its class at Daytona (or indeed any other race)
The "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" is no longer a Porsche mantra.
Incidentally, I watched the Mega-factories Panamera program on TV a couple of weeks ago, it left me feeling totally depressed
Cars being produced at work stations whereby the operators had ninety seconds ? to carry out their allotted task. Body shells painted in/on the same line as VW Transporters. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, a paint process is a paint process, irrespective of whether it's utilised to paint Porsche shells or VWs.Having been involved in production, this video of a 911 shell being built, gives me a warm glow ! ! :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detail...
There's something pleasing about it to watch, but I appreciate that no volume car manufacturer could contemplate manufacturing cars utilising the methods employed thirty years ago !
Edited by Slippydiff on Wednesday 29th February 10:13
The mega factories programme made me feel the opposite to the poster above. It showed that Porsche use the same attention to detail engineering in the manufacturing plant as they do in the end product that we all know and love. That for me makes me want to go get a panamera.
If Porsche suddenly stopped their Motorsport program I would have less desire to go out and buy the next Porsche. but I'm sure thats not the same for every porsche customer
If Porsche suddenly stopped their Motorsport program I would have less desire to go out and buy the next Porsche. but I'm sure thats not the same for every porsche customer
Edited by wildman0609 on Wednesday 29th February 08:17
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