3.2 Carrera Sport Project - Seeking 930 turbo engine etc
Discussion
Hi everyone. Im new to this Forum but a PCGB member and was hoping to get everyones thoughts on my new project car. I have just acquired a 1985 3.2 Carrera Sport 130,000 miles in Ferrari grey. It has been tested by Bob on the rolling road and only managed 202hp, plus leakage tests weren't that encouraging. I intend to add lightness keep reliability, add power and torque then think about suspension, brakes, interior and bodywork.
Initially I was thinking of just bolting on SSis, new exhaust and chip, but if i do so, Bobs best guess is that power will only increase to marginally to 230-240bhp. So i have three choices with existing engine (1) rebuild and add chip and exhaust, cost say £5-7,000. (2) rebuild engine and to get up to 250-260bhp by doing some more trick bits such as modified cams etc cost around £10,000 (3) Enlarge compression to 3.5 litres and gain 280bhp, cost probably at least £15,000.
1 and 2 not enough power for the money, number 3 too much money! I am naturally reluctant to embark on something that doesn't make financial sense so have been speaking to Russell Lewis at RSR and also Paul at Tuthills for more ideas. Russel said i should think about a 930 3.3 turbo engine, cost second hand say £6-7,000, which could produce say 300bhp. I have found an engine at Douglas Valley Breakers but don't know anything on history. Its done 80,000 miles will come to me with leak down tests but I DONT want to spend another 10k rebuilding in a year. Therefore does anyone know whose car this was or have any information on history for engine work etc? Please see link below, if for instance it has been rebuilt recently i think its a good choice for me
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1910108.htm
If i can't find a good 930 Turbo engine Russell suggested maybe a 993 3.6 litre engine, ideally non vario ram, BUT this will need a lot more bolt ons to make it work, so would like to stick with the turbo idea, unless of course anyone has a 993 3.6 that they can convince me is a good bet
Paul at Tuthills thinks its a pity not to stick with my 3.2 lump, not least because it will be lighter in 3.2 form, but understands that i don't want to spend 10k for a modest increase in power. He is also having a think about some other engine options.
Any thoughts would be massively appreciated and if anyone knows of an engine would be happy to pay good healthy finders fee freel free to call me anytime on 07775783050. Finally I hope to sell my engine soon after identifying new one so will suit someone that wants to rebuild a 3.2. Can provide any information on this as required.
Initially I was thinking of just bolting on SSis, new exhaust and chip, but if i do so, Bobs best guess is that power will only increase to marginally to 230-240bhp. So i have three choices with existing engine (1) rebuild and add chip and exhaust, cost say £5-7,000. (2) rebuild engine and to get up to 250-260bhp by doing some more trick bits such as modified cams etc cost around £10,000 (3) Enlarge compression to 3.5 litres and gain 280bhp, cost probably at least £15,000.
1 and 2 not enough power for the money, number 3 too much money! I am naturally reluctant to embark on something that doesn't make financial sense so have been speaking to Russell Lewis at RSR and also Paul at Tuthills for more ideas. Russel said i should think about a 930 3.3 turbo engine, cost second hand say £6-7,000, which could produce say 300bhp. I have found an engine at Douglas Valley Breakers but don't know anything on history. Its done 80,000 miles will come to me with leak down tests but I DONT want to spend another 10k rebuilding in a year. Therefore does anyone know whose car this was or have any information on history for engine work etc? Please see link below, if for instance it has been rebuilt recently i think its a good choice for me
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1910108.htm
If i can't find a good 930 Turbo engine Russell suggested maybe a 993 3.6 litre engine, ideally non vario ram, BUT this will need a lot more bolt ons to make it work, so would like to stick with the turbo idea, unless of course anyone has a 993 3.6 that they can convince me is a good bet
Paul at Tuthills thinks its a pity not to stick with my 3.2 lump, not least because it will be lighter in 3.2 form, but understands that i don't want to spend 10k for a modest increase in power. He is also having a think about some other engine options.
Any thoughts would be massively appreciated and if anyone knows of an engine would be happy to pay good healthy finders fee freel free to call me anytime on 07775783050. Finally I hope to sell my engine soon after identifying new one so will suit someone that wants to rebuild a 3.2. Can provide any information on this as required.
A used turbocharged engine that could be 30 years old doesn't sound like a good idea to me if you want to fit it and forget it.
A healthy 3.2 will make 250bhp just with a tune up - Wayne at Chipwizards has regularly achieved this, as well as making the car more responsive and nicer to drive. Add a few of the other bits and have it mapped with them and you'll soon be getting another 20bhp? Camshafts are another item, which isn't too labour intensive as far as I know.
As for a rebuild, prices start at around £2000 (I think Unit 11 charge £1800+VAT) but there's usually other stuff to do so allowing perhaps £4000 would be sensible. But then you'd have a freshly built strong engine to rely on and no messing about.
A healthy 3.2 will make 250bhp just with a tune up - Wayne at Chipwizards has regularly achieved this, as well as making the car more responsive and nicer to drive. Add a few of the other bits and have it mapped with them and you'll soon be getting another 20bhp? Camshafts are another item, which isn't too labour intensive as far as I know.
As for a rebuild, prices start at around £2000 (I think Unit 11 charge £1800+VAT) but there's usually other stuff to do so allowing perhaps £4000 would be sensible. But then you'd have a freshly built strong engine to rely on and no messing about.
I'd read a few of the build threads on 993 transplants before you go down that route, it ain't exactly a straight swap!
I think you've got the right idea adding lightness, & if that's the case then what else do you need? Freshen up your existing mill, like goose says it isn't rocket science & needn't cost too much. All depends in how much performance you want but 260bhp in a 1000kg car is going to feel pretty damn quick, especially if you're optimised for track & doubly so if it's an old 911!!
I think you've got the right idea adding lightness, & if that's the case then what else do you need? Freshen up your existing mill, like goose says it isn't rocket science & needn't cost too much. All depends in how much performance you want but 260bhp in a 1000kg car is going to feel pretty damn quick, especially if you're optimised for track & doubly so if it's an old 911!!
I'd be inclined to work with the 3.2 Carrera Engine. But it won't be cheap. You may find that a healthy 3.2 engine with a good chip will actually be fast enough, maybe. Other issues. The 915 gearbox will just about cope with the standard power and torque from a 3.3 turbo. But if you start modding it you'll have to go G50 gearbox. Going 993 you might also have to change the gearbox but I do not know for sure. As suggested have a look at www.impactbumpers.com. There is a wealth of information on there and guys that have fitted 993 engines in their cars.
930 Turbo lumps hate sitting about, the injection system corrodes and gets all sticky and just sorting that can be £2k. You can easily spend £10k putting a duff engine right. I'd never buy one I couldn't drive.
I'm also not a fan of the 993 motor in an earlier car, it feels a bit lazy somehow. Light cars work best with light zingy motors and the 3.6s just aren't zingy enough.
If you're rebuilding the 3.2 it's not hard to go to 3.5 with some bigger pistons, then fit G60 type cams for higher revs, lightened flywheel, individual throttle bodies from Jenvey or PMO and you'll get a beefy screamer that'll make 300bhp.
That said, I'd still rather have something even revvier with less power like a 230bhp 2.7 on MFI or a short-stroke 3.2 using an SC crank on ITBs.
I'm also not a fan of the 993 motor in an earlier car, it feels a bit lazy somehow. Light cars work best with light zingy motors and the 3.6s just aren't zingy enough.
If you're rebuilding the 3.2 it's not hard to go to 3.5 with some bigger pistons, then fit G60 type cams for higher revs, lightened flywheel, individual throttle bodies from Jenvey or PMO and you'll get a beefy screamer that'll make 300bhp.
That said, I'd still rather have something even revvier with less power like a 230bhp 2.7 on MFI or a short-stroke 3.2 using an SC crank on ITBs.
Thanks so much everyone. Of course 260bhp is enough but unfortunately because engine needs top end rebuild and that is projected to cost £10,000, i rally want more horsepower for that price. No point in spending 10k and feeling underpowered. I am a purist, the lightness will help but I want something that is very fast point to point while retaining Q car feel. Then the upgrade in brakes, exhaust, EXE-TC suspension and money spent on the interior will all feel worthwhile. Any more idea gratefully received, in the meantime I am now trying to identify a 964 engine, 993 engine (both must have history) or thinking of adding a turbo to existing engine and rebuilding top end. Bob and his his team are being very patient and understanding and helping me through the ideas and options The 3.5 litre upgrade at a cost of £17k is just a non starter, because I will never see a return on half that outlay. The 930 Turbo engine is 6.5k inclusive of VAT but with no history i don't see it being worth a punt, plus normally aspirated would be better.
ps have you guys seen this turbo thomas 3.2 carrera exhaust clip on you tube, makes the backdating turbo option look VERY appealing!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIGmj8cTqv0
ps have you guys seen this turbo thomas 3.2 carrera exhaust clip on you tube, makes the backdating turbo option look VERY appealing!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIGmj8cTqv0
The headache you have is no one can guarantee it's all top end only until you strip the engine down. My own 3.2 bought with a genuine 68K full service history was perceived at needing a top end rebuild only. When stripped it was found that the rings were worn to 1.7mm. 1.0 max. Barrels and pistons were perfect. I still bit the bullit and fitted new barrels, pistons etc. Oil pump had a tight spot in it. New pump and the list goes on and on. Thankfully the engine was built by a chap who a friend recommended. The bill was about what most indies charge for top end only so not so bad. Sorry I cannot tell who, it's his trade secret and not in the UK.
Have you driven a car on the exe-tc shocks? They're lots of money for the *very* marginal gain they give. Ditto big brakes. The usual C12 6 pot set up is not only unnecessary on a light road car but IME robs pedal feel. I've also driven more than one car on them that's suffered knock off.
I'd keep that 4k in my pocket for engine work, carbon panels and lowering the final drive, all of which will give you notable gains in cross-country pace.
I'd keep that 4k in my pocket for engine work, carbon panels and lowering the final drive, all of which will give you notable gains in cross-country pace.
agree with all comments - however, i still want circa 280bhp and to reach that using existing 3.2 is going to cost me £15,000-£17,000 cos Mahle 3.5 litre barrels and pistons are £3,700 plus vat and theres no availability now
Using 993 or 964 engine (cost £4,000) plus trade in value on 3.2 engine (receipt of £2,000), plus fitting and buying some new trick bits (£4,000) feels to me like total cost could be as little as £6,000, a massive saving of around 10k, right decision if donor engine doesn't need rebuilding again in short term....
Using 993 or 964 engine (cost £4,000) plus trade in value on 3.2 engine (receipt of £2,000), plus fitting and buying some new trick bits (£4,000) feels to me like total cost could be as little as £6,000, a massive saving of around 10k, right decision if donor engine doesn't need rebuilding again in short term....
I have many hours driving this 911 st , it has exetc suspension and it is absolutely amazing . On the right road this little girl can shame much newer more powerful stuff . You are in good hands with Tuthill .
Ps this car has the 6 pots and they are awesome in conjunction with the pedal box .
Ps this car has the 6 pots and they are awesome in conjunction with the pedal box .
I have a 930 and even though I love the way the engine delivers I wouldn't consider it a good choice for a lightened car unless you do a lot of tuning to eliminate the turbo lag.
I have also enjoyed a ride in a lightened car with a 3.6ltr and that gives a hell of lot of perfomance for the money. The car in no way could be described as lazy, quite the opposite with so much torque it just wouldn't stop accelerating.
If your budget is a bit restricted I would lighten you car first by removing everything you don't need or use along with freshening up your existing engine. You shouldn't need to add bigger brakes as your brakes will upgrade themselves as you reduce the weight.
As mentioned go onto Impactbumpers as there are a lot of knowledgeable people on there that would be happy to help you work out the best route for the car you want.
I have also enjoyed a ride in a lightened car with a 3.6ltr and that gives a hell of lot of perfomance for the money. The car in no way could be described as lazy, quite the opposite with so much torque it just wouldn't stop accelerating.
If your budget is a bit restricted I would lighten you car first by removing everything you don't need or use along with freshening up your existing engine. You shouldn't need to add bigger brakes as your brakes will upgrade themselves as you reduce the weight.
As mentioned go onto Impactbumpers as there are a lot of knowledgeable people on there that would be happy to help you work out the best route for the car you want.
Another vote from me for the 993 lump - I put a 993 non-vram lump in my car about 4 years ago and beat the crap out of it ever since with absolutely no issues whatsoever. It gives great MPG and is pretty much maintenance free apart from oil and filters. I got it re-mapped by Mr Scofield to about 295bhp and the car is a little lighter than standard but it's pretty much in GT3 acceleration territory - shame I cant get it to go round the corners quite as quick. Heres a vid from Oulton last year - excuse the crap driving at the start and end 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC4JAKDNy5w
As already mentioned head over to Impactbumpers - lots to read through on there about various conversion options.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC4JAKDNy5w
As already mentioned head over to Impactbumpers - lots to read through on there about various conversion options.
wtdoom said:
I have many hours driving this 911 st , it has exetc suspension and it is absolutely amazing . On the right road this little girl can shame much newer more powerful stuff . You are in good hands with Tuthill .
I totally agree that Tuthill can build a good car and for a full price build the exetcs are nice, but at the OP's budget the brakes and dampers would be my first sacrifice. Especially brakes. On an 1100kg race car round Oulton standard brakes might fade after 10 competitive laps, but on a sub 1000kg road car you'd have to be working them very hard round numerous Italian mountain hairpins to make them whinge.For the 3.5 - I bet standard 95mm Mahles aren't much different to 100mm. JE ought to be around half that...
By referring to the 993 lump as being lazy I mean lazy revving, not a slow performer. If you want to go fast it's a good option but my view is that the character of a revvy short stroke works so much better in a light car built to have its neck wrung.
MrCooke said:
wtdoom said:
I have many hours driving this 911 st , it has exetc suspension and it is absolutely amazing . On the right road this little girl can shame much newer more powerful stuff . You are in good hands with Tuthill .
I totally agree that Tuthill can build a good car and for a full price build the exetcs are nice, but at the OP's budget the brakes and dampers would be my first sacrifice. Especially brakes. On an 1100kg race car round Oulton standard brakes might fade after 10 competitive laps, but on a sub 1000kg road car you'd have to be working them very hard round numerous Italian mountain hairpins to make them whinge.For the 3.5 - I bet standard 95mm Mahles aren't much different to 100mm. JE ought to be around half that...
By referring to the 993 lump as being lazy I mean lazy revving, not a slow performer. If you want to go fast it's a good option but my view is that the character of a revvy short stroke works so much better in a light car built to have its neck wrung.
Regards
b
unfortunately there is an error message on impact bumpers.com
The error returned was:
The board administrator is no longer accepting any new registrations at the moment.
would love to get up to speed on 3.2 with 993 engine if anyone could point me in the direction of a good thread
plus have asked bob watson's team to investigate some more affordable options re new pistons in existing 3.2 lump. for instance 3.4 capricorn or JE pistons, maybe with jenvey throttle bodies
hope to make decision next week. recaro sportster CS seats going in net week, so lightness has started
The error returned was:
The board administrator is no longer accepting any new registrations at the moment.
would love to get up to speed on 3.2 with 993 engine if anyone could point me in the direction of a good thread
plus have asked bob watson's team to investigate some more affordable options re new pistons in existing 3.2 lump. for instance 3.4 capricorn or JE pistons, maybe with jenvey throttle bodies
hope to make decision next week. recaro sportster CS seats going in net week, so lightness has started
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