S2000 for 1980's 911? Ummm....er....well....

[Folded tread]

Sensible idea or a mistake?

I'm a serial S2000 owner but I'm thinking of changing marques and getting an 80s 911.

My current car is a 54 plate that I spent many months scouring the main dealers for.



The handling of the 911 appeals as does the 2+2 format and I'm definitely ready for a change - at least I think I am!

Actually....I'm not sure this is the right move - hence the post.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[cragswinter]

very very different cars mate, best thing to do is to get yourself into a few to appreciate the differences. a 1980's 3.2 carrera is a lovely thing but a lot are well past their best.

i'd suggest looking at post 89 cars with g50 gearboxes-nothing wrong with earlier cars of course but a think it may be a step too far from modern jap metal.

also, do you like getting your hands dirty? no offence but there will be a massive amount of regular upkeep & maintenance to protect your investment compared to your current car.

these cars can & will go on forever if maintained well enough but just figure on what you don't lose in depreciation you'll spend on maintenance.

[Folded tread]

Thanks, good point. I know my way around an engine bay but ideally I'd like something that doesn't need constant attention. Appreciate that maintenance will make up for any lack of depreciation.

Even if I buy a good one, I'm wondering whether the time and hassle involved would really be balanced by the enjoyment of driving one over the longer term.

I've read that quite a few 3.2 owners go on to 993 ownership - wondering whether it would be worth waiting (quite a while) until funds allow, or whether the character of the 3.2 justifies the purchase?

[marky911]

Phone or mobile Pistonheads really acting up today.

Edited by marky911 on Tuesday 5th July 13:44

[marky911]

As said, get out in a few.
It will feel old. There's no getting away from that. If old means good as it can with me, then go for it.
Only you will know.

PS You'll want an '87 or later for the G50 box in a carrera. It's the Turbos that didn't get it til '89.

ETA - A 993 would be more suited to regular use. How about a 964? Classic silhouette but night and day to a 3.2 carrera.
I had a 3.2 and found although it felt special, it felt too agricultural and wasn't as quick as my daily driver BMW. What's the point in a weekend car that is worse in some ways than your daily.
I moved to a 964 C2 and loved it!
Classic looks, sound and feel but with abs, power steering and way better suspension.
All just IMHO though and I still really like the impact bumper cars but, they may be a bit too raw for you.

PS I progressed through quick jap stuff too, along with Cosworths etc. 911s rock though!
Totally different experience. Hard to explain or put your finger on why.

Anyway, good luck with your decision.

Edited by marky911 on Tuesday 5th July 13:43

[carcrazypop]

Hi,
You hav'nt said whether it's to be a daily driver & also budget.

As already said, I'd get out & test drive a few to see what you think. The things I could'nt quite get used to on mine were the lack of power steering(parking etc) and by modern standards, they really are'nt that quick.

I had a mint, low mileage Supersport which was a beauty, but I honestly would'nt have been happy to use it as a daily driver.

[sneaky schnell]

If you find a good car you will not regret the move. As Craig has stated, this is easier said than done.

The Carrera 3.2 G50 gearbox actually came out around '87 with the 964 coming out in '89. I used to have a Honda S2000 which I only bought as I was getting fed up looking for a good 911. I didn't keep it long as I realised that as good as the Honda was, it wasn't what I really wanted.

You should try a few different Porsches if possible. Based on your OP, I would recommend a 964.
They are significantly more modern than a Carrera 3.2 but still have the air-cooled noise. Although the stats don't show it, on the road, they are significantly faster than an S2000 due to the increased torque at lower engine speeds. And the noise is

[Wozy68]

Folded tread said:

Sensible idea or a mistake?

I'm a serial S2000 owner but I'm thinking of changing marques and getting an 80s 911.

My current car is a 54 plate that I spent many months scouring the main dealers for.

The handling of the 911 appeals as does the 2+2 format and I'm definitely ready for a change - at least I think I am!

Actually....I'm not sure this is the right move - hence the post.

Any thoughts appreciated.

I was in a simlair position. For a weekend car I was hankering for either another eighties 911 or going more modern to either an S2000 or RX8.

However after being out of old 911s for a while, I was shocked how old world they felt to drive and be sat in compared to a newer designed car ...... a real culture shock. No probs if your into the odd summer blast and reasonable speed, but I wouldn't want to go too quick or far in one with our crowed roads.
I just felt they are a little over hyped. After all they were considered old feeling back in the eighties when they were new.
Expensive to buy (a good one that is) and most I viewed were in poor condition (if you know what to look for and not just a shiny paint job).
I'm not knocking the car par se, I just no longer got the whole eighties Porsche thing.

If I was determined to have an oil cooled 911 now, it would most def be 964 or 993. Traditional old Porsche with a slightly more modern feel.

Saying that, for a weekend toy both the S2000/RX8 I tried were just a little bit gutless (Fantastically engineerd though) and felt just a little bit too modern to feel a bit special.

In the end I went for a Porsche I thought I would never want to own, a front engined one, a 968CS. It gives me that old handbuilt Porsche feel, extremely great handling, with a feeling of a more modern car. The best of both worlds. I think its the best Porsche of that era I have owned.

I truly believe I'd made the right choice. ..... however saying that, the oil cooled itch never fully goes away once you have tried it.

[cragswinter]

facepalm on the post 89 gearbox comment you are correct of course post 87 is what you should be looking for.

what i would say re the 993 is although for me (look at my profile) they are the best compramise of modern creature comforts v's old school classic pork they is simply just more to go wrong.

what's your budget?

the best 3.2's are now in the £18-20k bracket. buy well & one that has had some all of the below (though there is of course more that can & will need doing)

NO RUST!
top end rebuild
oil lines replaced
petrol lines & (possibly) tank replaced
heat exchangers & exhaust
dampers
gearbox freshen up or clutch
brakes refreshed (inc callipers)
heater fans refurbed

find one of the rare enthusiast owned cars that has had this type of work done & jump on it.

in the last 4-5 months i've only seen one car that approached this level of work (borns car-i probably should have bought it) & like i said it will cost you for the privalidge but with all these jobs out of the way you're really only looking at niggling things that may need some work

be careful though-the tinkering & spannering becomes very very addictive (see my thread on cleaning a 993's ISV for how even a hairdresser can become afflicted with the beards disease!)

[Folded tread]

Thanks chaps already this thread has proven useful.

Funnily enough, I only bought my current S2000 as I'd spent too much time looking for a 3.2 without success. So I went for something I knew like the back of my hand rather than taking a chance. It's been faultless but I think you've hit the nail on the head - maybe I need something that is a little more challenging.

I hadn't considered a 964 as I've heard the engines are less bulletproof but I do like the shape - I'll get out and drive a couple over the coming weeks.

Sorry meant to say it will only be a dry weekend driver, budget is around £14k unless I'm prepared to wait until next year and add some more.

[mollytherocker]

The 2 cars are poles apart.

The air cooled 911 is a marmite car in the extreme. You will either be hugely disappointed at its old tractor like quality OR, you will fall in love with hugely and it will last forever.

But remember, its gonna cost you in maintenance. Its no modern Honda!!

Go and get a ride in one, and report back!

MTR

[Ian_UK1]

And don't forget to try some of the newer Pork too. You'd get a well-sorted 996 for your budget and these (especially the 3.4) are beginning to get a following for their simple good looks and reasonable go/handling - they're a LOT of car for the money. As with the earlier cars, you'll need a budget for servicing/repairs and a contingency fund in case of an engine/gearbox rebuild. However, it may even be possible to find one with a Hartech engine in which case the (well-documented) weaknesses will mostly have been addressed.

Ian

[RiccardoG]

I also have had an S2000 for around 3 years now and have been considering again going the Porsche way. Having owned a 964 in the past I can say that the S2000 feels slower and less exciting to own/drive, on the other hand it's more modern, reliable, and substantially cheaper to keep running (servicing).

I would really love a 993 but being quite tall don't fit in the RHD ones (only LHD ones, my 964 ws also LHD) as the driving position is way too offset. This leaves the modern Porsches, such as 996/7 and Boxsters. Every time I decide I will take the plunge I recalculate the running costs and risk factor with the modern Porsches (IMS and other engine issues) and chicken out. Given I only drive the weekend car around 3k miles a year the cost/benfit of the Porsches just doesn't make sense to me.

Its a shame as I think that the boxer engines are more suited to my driving style (torque) and I love the sound they make (S2000 is just a 4 cylinder).

[cragswinter]

Folded tread said:

budget is around £14k

it's do-able, but be prepared to travel, have the cash ready & pounce when you find one

[Folded tread]

RiccardoG said:

I also have had an S2000 for around 3 years now and have been considering again going the Porsche way. Having owned a 964 in the past I can say that the S2000 feels slower and less exciting to own/drive, on the other hand it's more modern, reliable, and substantially cheaper to keep running (servicing).

It would be good to know what made you change to Honda in the first place - presumably the easier ownership rather than anything else?

Interesting to hear that the 964 is quicker as I imagined I would not be putting my foot down hard in a 20-year old car. Thought it would be more a case of brisk progress than hitting any apices.

[RiccardoG]

Folded tread said:

It would be good to know what made you change to Honda in the first place - presumably the easier ownership rather than anything else?

Interesting to hear that the 964 is quicker as I imagined I would not be putting my foot down hard in a 20-year old car. Thought it would be more a case of brisk progress than hitting any apices.

I didn't go directly from the 964 to the S2000, there was a Mini and a Golf in between, both based on lifestyle changes, so my experience is not really applicable in that sense. Also consider that I bought my 964 in 2001 and it was only 8 years old then, so wasn't too concerned about putting the foot down! Managed to hit an indicated 275km/h on the autobahn following a 996TT (he dissapeared away) and cruised all day at 220km/h, the S2000 is happier at slower speeds. It is more 'chuckable though'.

When I was eventually back in the position to buy my next sports car I was very usnure between Boxster and S2000 (wanted a convertible) but ultimately the Honda won as it was considerably better value and I didn't have to faff with finding right versions etc (no options on S2000s!). I also wanted to try something different, never having owned a Jap car before.

From my perspective if its a weekend car I want it to be reliable and not having to spend every other weekend doing things to it, the S2000 is great as it sits in the garage for weeks and then starts first time every time.

I can see I am not going to make the switch over again....

[Wozy68]

Folded tread said:

Thanks chaps already this thread has proven useful.

I hadn't considered a 964 as I've heard the engines are less bulletproof but I do like the shape - I'll get out and drive a couple over the coming weeks.

I would def have a look at a 964 if I were you, if I was in the market for one at the moment it would be for a 92 onwards C2 or C4. The engine was sorted and the later C2 had better brakes. I also think later well looked after cars are about to shoot up in value. Beware though, there were alot of earlier models sold on later plates. Easy way to check, the rear seat back catch is on the top of the seat on later models

Drive the 3.2 first however, then try the 964 and compare.

[M@verick]

As others have stated, the cars are night and day.

Apologies if i missed it, but I cant see anywhere that you have stated why you are only looking at 1980's 911's. I would definitely also consider a 996 and make sure that you get yourself a test drive in a decent example of each of the 911 variants you are considering.

I went from a 2002 S2000, to a 2002 911 (996 C4) about four years ago - and was extremely pleased with the decision, it would take something extra special (GT3 / Turbo) to make me part with the 996 now. I found the S2000 fun for a time, but I rapidly went off it - most noteably when the missus closed the A10 southbound with it after i told her she could drive it as fast as she liked as long as she *did not put the power down coming out of a corner* (she promptly floored it off a round about, but then she was french, volatile and less prone to take direction than an angry mountain goat).
I think for me, and i must stress its just my personal opinion - i started out thinking that the S2000's detractors did not "get" the car when they said it was wearing, and handled snappily. I began to find myself agreeing with them after a time, the (admittedly amazingly engineered) engine is brilliant but its a one trick pony - if you are not interested in wringing it out to the red line and enjoying the sensation of 9000 rpm madness, it seemed to have little else to offer me.
Possibly its an account of my lack of legendary wheel man status (although i have always enjoyed on the limit driving in other vehicles) but i found it hard to enjoy the S2000 to its fullest since even in the dry it could get out of hand seemingly quite quickly - i never felt it telegraphed what it was about to do, and when the back end broke traction it did so abruptly and with some venom, even on airfield days practicing on limit handling with an instructor present the car was difficult to hold sideways, so I always felt that 1) I was close to an "oh st" moment, and 2) that the car when driven fast, or indeed when driven slowly in unclement weather - would try to kill me if it got the chance.
Trotting out an old expression ive used a few times on PH but cannot sadly take credit for, i found that driving the S2000 felt like "trying to have sex with a tiger on wet rocks".

So it met its demise, and was traded up for the 996. It still confuses me that S2000, none of my cars has ever divided my opinion so greatly over the time that i owned it (and i bought it from new). All i can say is that the 911 feels much more erm, "grown up", and it does everything so incredibly well. It feels as if hewn from a lump of granite, and it instills a lot more confidence when pushing on. I also noticed the difference in engine performance, the 911 understandably does not feel as manic as the S2000 did - there is very little drama, but it puts big numbers up far quicker - for the first little while i had it i found myself checking the speedo and thinking "how did that happen".

All of the above is only my personal opinion (apart from the bit about the french ex, that is obviously known fact and not racial stereotyping at its worst), but i think if you get some time in a few 911's and ultimately make the swap - you will be a very happy man.

Some good advice offered on this thread - only a couple of things i do not agree with:

1) You need a slush fund to own a 911 in case of engine problems. There is an awful lot of internet hyperbole about engine problems, and whilst i am sure some engines do let go it seems to be a phenomenon that has gotten out of hand on PH. I remember when i owned the S2000 Honda were trotting out a line about "never having a VTEC engine fail", and yet a few of the owners on S2ki.com experienced engines letting go - the world is an imperfect place, screws fall out all the time (bonus points to anyone who can name the film quote) but honestly in my experience and that extends to mates who own 911s the engines do not just explode - that is the exception rather than the rule. I have run mine for four years with no warranty and enjoyed every minute. Make sure you factor in servicing though, it is indeed drug money whenever something does go wrong or wear and tear occurs.

2) 911s are not as chuckable as S2000's. Not in my experience. The 911 (and certainly moreso for the lardy 996) is a bigger car than an S2000, but it inspires more confidence when pushing on, and it has never felt "big" or anything less than tidy when driven hard. The driving characteristics are different yes, but i can throw the 911 into a corner just as fast as i could if not faster than i dared in the S2000. You just need to remember that the weight is over the back wheels, so weight transfer is completely different and you need to approach fast corners with an according driving style to tuck the nose in and use the grip at the back. You will get used to it.

Hope this helps.

R.

Edited by M@verick on Tuesday 5th July 16:10

[stewart rix]

Of those mentioned so far, I'd recommend a 993. It was such a leap forward in terms of reliability, performance, comfort, handling over the 964. You'll be looking at c. £18k + for a nice usable one that hasn't got too many issues.

[davek_964]

Folded tread said:

Interesting to hear that the 964 is quicker as I imagined I would not be putting my foot down hard in a 20-year old car. Thought it would be more a case of brisk progress than hitting any apices.

I often put my foot down hard in the 964, and regularly change up as the rev counter is approaching the red line. These are well built cars, and as long as it's been maintained properly they are really not that fragile.

As for the engines - 964s did have a reputation for engine issues when they were new (DMF and oil leaks) but you'd struggle to find one that hasn't had those things sorted by now. You still need to take the normal precautions when buying of course but I wouldn't be concerned that 964 engines are all waiting to self destruct.