Another 997 - cheap, high miles, Hartech
Discussion
I said I’d start a thread on this car as there was interest in other threads. I’ve had it nearly a month, so will do a post a day until I catch up.
Background.
I've wanted a 911 for a long time and been close to buying a few times. Once choosing a TVR Cerbera 4.5 instead and another time a SL500. But over the last few years the want has been getting stronger. I didn’t find it easy deciding on a Porsche sports car, as there's a car for every budget....Boxster (£3k+), Caymans, (£10k), 996 911 (£15k)....997.1 (£20k), 997.2 (£30K), 996 Turbo...(£30k)...991 (£35k).....and so on...
It’s difficult to know where to stop and/or start looking at ballon finance £35k+ cars....Thats before you even start looking at spec and the elephant in the room, bore scoring.
While the Cayman certainly looks like a bit of sweet sport. I was concerned that although I think rare, a bore scoring rebuild bill would be more than the car. Plus I think I had to scratch that 911 itch. I got some ballon finance quotes on 997 GTS cars and some good spec 997.2 cars. But it was going to have to be next year before I could fulfil those options. You also start getting close to other interesting cars at that point, R8 V10, Ferrari California and the confusion kicks in again.
Anyway, an entry level 997.1 looked like a good spot to aim for and could be done pretty soon. But even that comes with some further confusion, £20k on a non-rebuilt car or hold out for a Hartech rebuild car at around £28k…getting close to 997.2 and 996 Turbo.
I made a post of the 997 Appreciation Thread asking for advice on a £20k 997 purchase, referring to non Hartech engine rebuild cars. Steel liner rebuilds from less know companies. I was considering those cars as an option.
A few posters on there drew my attention to a car advertised which they had been discussing for a few pages.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335758437984
Background.
I've wanted a 911 for a long time and been close to buying a few times. Once choosing a TVR Cerbera 4.5 instead and another time a SL500. But over the last few years the want has been getting stronger. I didn’t find it easy deciding on a Porsche sports car, as there's a car for every budget....Boxster (£3k+), Caymans, (£10k), 996 911 (£15k)....997.1 (£20k), 997.2 (£30K), 996 Turbo...(£30k)...991 (£35k).....and so on...
It’s difficult to know where to stop and/or start looking at ballon finance £35k+ cars....Thats before you even start looking at spec and the elephant in the room, bore scoring.
While the Cayman certainly looks like a bit of sweet sport. I was concerned that although I think rare, a bore scoring rebuild bill would be more than the car. Plus I think I had to scratch that 911 itch. I got some ballon finance quotes on 997 GTS cars and some good spec 997.2 cars. But it was going to have to be next year before I could fulfil those options. You also start getting close to other interesting cars at that point, R8 V10, Ferrari California and the confusion kicks in again.
Anyway, an entry level 997.1 looked like a good spot to aim for and could be done pretty soon. But even that comes with some further confusion, £20k on a non-rebuilt car or hold out for a Hartech rebuild car at around £28k…getting close to 997.2 and 996 Turbo.
I made a post of the 997 Appreciation Thread asking for advice on a £20k 997 purchase, referring to non Hartech engine rebuild cars. Steel liner rebuilds from less know companies. I was considering those cars as an option.
A few posters on there drew my attention to a car advertised which they had been discussing for a few pages.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335758437984
eBay Advert said:
Regrettably I am selling my dream car due to a change in circumstances.
Here is my Porsche 911 997.1 generation Carrera S Manual. This example is a very useable example & is a testement to the build quality of the brand as after 20 years of motoring and 159,000 miles covered this car still manages to put a huge smile on your face, and the face of other enthusiasts, whenever you drive it. This car has benefited from having the key issues of 997.1 911's addressed, an engine rebuild from HARTECH (rebuilt at 62k miles, no signs of bore score since) means you can enjoy this car without worring about the dredded bore score or IMS bearing issues that haunt this generation of cars. Other work to note before my ownership: Full coolant system refresh, clutch, and a wheel refurbishment.
In my ownership I've had the pleasure of fitting a brand new alternator and drive belt to the car, had a major service at 153k, new fuel cap, new nearside rear brake line bracket, oil leaks diagnosed and fixed, and replaced the orginial shock absorbers with a set of BC Racing Coilovers setup for road use. Overall, including other small maintenance items & a set of new Michelin PS4S on the rear, I've spent upwards of £5k on this car during my ownership in the desire for it to reach it's peak condition but, regrettably, a new job & a house purchase means the car has to be passed on.
The exterior paintwork is as you would imagine for a car of this age & mileage. I had the car polished when I purchased it, however, the car would benefit from having some more paintwork TLC & has some slight rusting in the rear arches.
The interior has aged incredibly well, no major rattles or squeaks & the seat boulsters are as sturdy as ever.
Included with the sale will be some other items I intended to put on the car but never got round to doing so, these include: Rear wiper delete kit, apple car play (PCCM Plus replica worth over £400)
The car has recently returned from my local specialist on 20/12/2024 for a check over to ensure any final snags in my ownership are dealt with. The oil filler pipe and a vacuum line were replaced and once it had returned I fitted a brand new bosch battery.
The car has a slight clunk coming from the front right suspension, the handbrake is slightly high & there is a chip in the windscreen, I’ve considered the cost of getting these items sorted when pricing the car.
Overall the car drives very well, it’s exciting, beautiful and puts a smile on your face every drive. This is your chance to buy into 911 ownership with a very useable example for below £20k!
The car is no longer in daily use but mileage may rise slightly as these cars don't like to be left sitting around for long periods.
Key Factory options -
6 speed manual gearbox
Black leather Sports Seats
3 spoke leather sports steering wheel
Alcantara roof lining
19” Sport Design wheels
PSM
Red brake callipers
Xenon headlights
Black extended leather interior
Rear parking sensors
2 keys
Car comes with 2 keys, black leather Porsche handbook wallet and a file of receipts and history.
MOT until 11/05/2025
Here is my Porsche 911 997.1 generation Carrera S Manual. This example is a very useable example & is a testement to the build quality of the brand as after 20 years of motoring and 159,000 miles covered this car still manages to put a huge smile on your face, and the face of other enthusiasts, whenever you drive it. This car has benefited from having the key issues of 997.1 911's addressed, an engine rebuild from HARTECH (rebuilt at 62k miles, no signs of bore score since) means you can enjoy this car without worring about the dredded bore score or IMS bearing issues that haunt this generation of cars. Other work to note before my ownership: Full coolant system refresh, clutch, and a wheel refurbishment.
In my ownership I've had the pleasure of fitting a brand new alternator and drive belt to the car, had a major service at 153k, new fuel cap, new nearside rear brake line bracket, oil leaks diagnosed and fixed, and replaced the orginial shock absorbers with a set of BC Racing Coilovers setup for road use. Overall, including other small maintenance items & a set of new Michelin PS4S on the rear, I've spent upwards of £5k on this car during my ownership in the desire for it to reach it's peak condition but, regrettably, a new job & a house purchase means the car has to be passed on.
The exterior paintwork is as you would imagine for a car of this age & mileage. I had the car polished when I purchased it, however, the car would benefit from having some more paintwork TLC & has some slight rusting in the rear arches.
The interior has aged incredibly well, no major rattles or squeaks & the seat boulsters are as sturdy as ever.
Included with the sale will be some other items I intended to put on the car but never got round to doing so, these include: Rear wiper delete kit, apple car play (PCCM Plus replica worth over £400)
The car has recently returned from my local specialist on 20/12/2024 for a check over to ensure any final snags in my ownership are dealt with. The oil filler pipe and a vacuum line were replaced and once it had returned I fitted a brand new bosch battery.
The car has a slight clunk coming from the front right suspension, the handbrake is slightly high & there is a chip in the windscreen, I’ve considered the cost of getting these items sorted when pricing the car.
Overall the car drives very well, it’s exciting, beautiful and puts a smile on your face every drive. This is your chance to buy into 911 ownership with a very useable example for below £20k!
The car is no longer in daily use but mileage may rise slightly as these cars don't like to be left sitting around for long periods.
Key Factory options -
6 speed manual gearbox
Black leather Sports Seats
3 spoke leather sports steering wheel
Alcantara roof lining
19” Sport Design wheels
PSM
Red brake callipers
Xenon headlights
Black extended leather interior
Rear parking sensors
2 keys
Car comes with 2 keys, black leather Porsche handbook wallet and a file of receipts and history.
MOT until 11/05/2025
I had over looked that car due to the mileage, 159k. But with the encouragement of the poster on the 997 Appreciation Thread I took a much better look at it.
Firstly, it appealed because at that price I could buy it that week & the main appeal was the Hartech rebuild. I wasn't really concerned about much else, spec, or other maintenance required. I do a lot of work myself and have access to a friends garage with ramps, etc and a helping hand if required. But it was a priority to avoid the chances of an engine rebuild
I spoke to the seller and got a copy of the Hartech rebuild. I had some disappointment as the rebuild was only the one bank. Which put me off it completely at first. I did quite a bit of reading Hartech old posts and googling to try find examples of cars with scoring on the other bank. It definitely appeared to be very rare and when Hartech did one bank rebuilds they did some other work on the bank retaining the OEM liners to decrease the chance of bore scoring. From what I could understand the consensus was that bore scoring on that side was rare and with the treatment from Hartech very unlikely.
I was back interested in the car! But I decided it was prudent to get the car bore scoped. With the help of a very hospitable seller, we arranged a pre purchase borescope inspection. The seller very kindly taking time off work to take the car.
After the first garage getting the car in and their bore scope failing. I was getting nervous. But with the help of another garage and again a very helpful seller. The car was taken the next day to get the bores checked. The report showed no signs of scoring or any excess oil.
We had agreed £16.5k for the car, with me paying for the bore scope regardless of outcome.
A bit of further background on why I was so cautious about bore scoring.
My TVR Cerbera engine rebuild experience, not long after buying the engine required a new engine block. It took me 7 years to rebuild myself, with Powers doing the new liners initially and me striping and refitting the block. I really didn’t want another engine rebuild experience; it’s not just the cost. It’s the car being off the road for a long time and getting it all working correctly again after being dormant. If I had the same thing again, I think Id just sell the car rather than face the logistics of getting it done.
Firstly, it appealed because at that price I could buy it that week & the main appeal was the Hartech rebuild. I wasn't really concerned about much else, spec, or other maintenance required. I do a lot of work myself and have access to a friends garage with ramps, etc and a helping hand if required. But it was a priority to avoid the chances of an engine rebuild
I spoke to the seller and got a copy of the Hartech rebuild. I had some disappointment as the rebuild was only the one bank. Which put me off it completely at first. I did quite a bit of reading Hartech old posts and googling to try find examples of cars with scoring on the other bank. It definitely appeared to be very rare and when Hartech did one bank rebuilds they did some other work on the bank retaining the OEM liners to decrease the chance of bore scoring. From what I could understand the consensus was that bore scoring on that side was rare and with the treatment from Hartech very unlikely.
I was back interested in the car! But I decided it was prudent to get the car bore scoped. With the help of a very hospitable seller, we arranged a pre purchase borescope inspection. The seller very kindly taking time off work to take the car.
After the first garage getting the car in and their bore scope failing. I was getting nervous. But with the help of another garage and again a very helpful seller. The car was taken the next day to get the bores checked. The report showed no signs of scoring or any excess oil.
We had agreed £16.5k for the car, with me paying for the bore scope regardless of outcome.
A bit of further background on why I was so cautious about bore scoring.
My TVR Cerbera engine rebuild experience, not long after buying the engine required a new engine block. It took me 7 years to rebuild myself, with Powers doing the new liners initially and me striping and refitting the block. I really didn’t want another engine rebuild experience; it’s not just the cost. It’s the car being off the road for a long time and getting it all working correctly again after being dormant. If I had the same thing again, I think Id just sell the car rather than face the logistics of getting it done.
Edited by CaiosH on Monday 24th February 13:05
I got the train down to collect the car. Pretty much the only time I use trains is to buy cars!
Initial impressions where it was tiny! The steering felt a little wayward & it was pretty bumpy.
Partly it was a long time since I’d driven anything like it. It felt reassuringly German, but felt like it had some issues. These were described in the advertisement though and not unexpected.
It made the journey home 3 hrs with no issues….apart from my driving skill after driving a Transit van daily for a couple of years!
The plan going forward:
Fit the aliexpress carplay head unit that came with the car.
Change the alloy wheels, as Ive never like the included wheels.
Get the car on a ramp at friends garage to investigate running gear.
Look at exhaust as was blowing a bit.
I also didnt like the plate on it, so wanted to find something cheap on DVLA.
Edited by CaiosH on Monday 24th February 12:32
It's often difficult to not scratch an itch and it looks like your convincing yourself to get a 911 with very high mileage but don't forget that the Cayman S 987.2 is pretty much bombproof. Worst decision of my motoring life was selling mine on. No real issues with that car and it gives many smiles per mile. Hard to find mind!
Good luck with whatever you choose!
JM
Good luck with whatever you choose!
JM
Johnniem said:
It's often difficult to not scratch an itch and it looks like your convincing yourself to get a 911 with very high mileage but don't forget that the Cayman S 987.2 is pretty much bombproof. Worst decision of my motoring life was selling mine on. No real issues with that car and it gives many smiles per mile. Hard to find mind!
Good luck with whatever you choose!
JM
Indeed! I missed out that I even considered 981 Caymans as well....as I said it gets very confusing....hahaaGood luck with whatever you choose!
JM
CaiosH said:
Initial impressions where it was tiny! The steering felt a little wayward & it was pretty bumpy.
Those were my impressions 16 years ago when I picked up one, the steering wheel was moving around in my hands, front end bobbing around and it felt like it had an anvil in the back. 
I got used to it though, great piece of kit, enjoy.
Really interesting to hear these first hand 997 experiences. You always read how all the 911 had been wiped out of them by that point and frankly these owner descriptions make make them sound like a very interesting option, despite all the journalist stuff.
And I too applaud the embrace of high miles. It’s a quality machine, keep on top of the upkeep and just enjoy it! Fascinating about the Hartech single bank work, I didn’t know they did that. They know what they’re doing!
And I too applaud the embrace of high miles. It’s a quality machine, keep on top of the upkeep and just enjoy it! Fascinating about the Hartech single bank work, I didn’t know they did that. They know what they’re doing!
Edited by E-numbers on Monday 24th February 21:59
E-numbers said:
Really interesting to hear these first hand 997 experiences. You always read how all the 911 had been wiped out of them by that point and frankly these owner descriptions make make them sound like a very interesting option, despite all the journalist stuff.
And I too applaud the embrace of high miles. It’s a quality machine, keep on top of the upkeep and just enjoy it! Fascinating about the Hartech single bank work, I didn’t know they did that. They know what they’re doing!
You'll find the modern Journo pieces on the 996/997 wax lyrical about them these days and that they are the best of old and new, a well sorted one is a great drive. Now is a great time to buy a 996/997, as they come into their rightful glory in the coming years And I too applaud the embrace of high miles. It’s a quality machine, keep on top of the upkeep and just enjoy it! Fascinating about the Hartech single bank work, I didn’t know they did that. They know what they’re doing!
Edited by E-numbers on Monday 24th February 21:59
£16k is a great buy for this particular car, i hope you have many happy miles in it!
Cheers, glad there's some interest. The car definitely doesn’t look or feel its age or mileage. Size wise, I think it’s perfect.
I’m not sure how clear it was in the above, one of what I think the points of interest with the car is the Hartech rebuild was close to 100k miles ago. Which was the other reason to get the car bore scoped.
Anyway, on to the next few days with the car. It was pretty much constant rain for the few days after collecting the car. I was being very cautious with car, fearful of rear engine and rear wheels drive handling. Mindful of my TVR Cerbera, that was wild and would spin up the rear tyres at any opportunity. That combined with my lack of recent experience in a rear-wheel-drive car rightly gave me reason to be cautious.
But the 997 just doesn’t loose traction. There is a long up hill slip way off a round about near my house. Even the Transit van wheels spins up it! But with full beans in 2nd and 3rd in absolute torrential rain the 997 is completely settled! Its everything the TVR isn’t, the levels of mechanical grip seem to me to be the 997’s ‘party trick’. The weight over the rear and the huge rear tyres, works extremely well.
I was still be very cautious in anything but a straight line because as I said, I was not sure how the weighty back end would behave when it let go. I should add, the 997 does not feel that quick. Although this could be because I’m used to riding fast motorbikes. But I would say, its probably about right. Not so fast that its not fun or impossible to keep legal.
Anyway, on to sorting the car out. In my excitement of buying the car I had ordered a set of alloy wheels and a plate the morning I collected the car.
Was a stroke of luck that a set of the exact wheels I wanted where for sale at the time - Sport Design alloy wheels. The exact same size as the wheels already on it. So could swap the good Michelin's over.
One for the c4ppy plates thread! I do like a car themed plate, and it wasnt much on DVLA. Ive had some stick from friends on the plate, "should of got G3T A GR1P, P30 EDO, etc".....but I dont care. I like it! :-)
I’m not sure how clear it was in the above, one of what I think the points of interest with the car is the Hartech rebuild was close to 100k miles ago. Which was the other reason to get the car bore scoped.
Anyway, on to the next few days with the car. It was pretty much constant rain for the few days after collecting the car. I was being very cautious with car, fearful of rear engine and rear wheels drive handling. Mindful of my TVR Cerbera, that was wild and would spin up the rear tyres at any opportunity. That combined with my lack of recent experience in a rear-wheel-drive car rightly gave me reason to be cautious.
But the 997 just doesn’t loose traction. There is a long up hill slip way off a round about near my house. Even the Transit van wheels spins up it! But with full beans in 2nd and 3rd in absolute torrential rain the 997 is completely settled! Its everything the TVR isn’t, the levels of mechanical grip seem to me to be the 997’s ‘party trick’. The weight over the rear and the huge rear tyres, works extremely well.
I was still be very cautious in anything but a straight line because as I said, I was not sure how the weighty back end would behave when it let go. I should add, the 997 does not feel that quick. Although this could be because I’m used to riding fast motorbikes. But I would say, its probably about right. Not so fast that its not fun or impossible to keep legal.
Anyway, on to sorting the car out. In my excitement of buying the car I had ordered a set of alloy wheels and a plate the morning I collected the car.
Was a stroke of luck that a set of the exact wheels I wanted where for sale at the time - Sport Design alloy wheels. The exact same size as the wheels already on it. So could swap the good Michelin's over.
One for the c4ppy plates thread! I do like a car themed plate, and it wasnt much on DVLA. Ive had some stick from friends on the plate, "should of got G3T A GR1P, P30 EDO, etc".....but I dont care. I like it! :-)
Edited by CaiosH on Tuesday 25th February 10:26
Looks great, assume you've seen his youtube vids on the car? Looked very well cared for and loved in his ownership. I would have bought it if the funds allowed at the time.
It was up for sale at Marshall & Son at one point who seem to find decent used Porsche with rebuilds.
Shame on the partial engine rebuilt but you're right, it's only one side that usually fails and the reality, given the price point, most are going to be fixed in this way unless there is money to burn. I do see the logic in doing right first time though, but given yours has got to 160k it wasn't a bad decision to just one bank.
Your earlier post about a Porsche available for every budget, confusing the waters even further, is exactly where I am at. Do you go Boxster S (3.2, IMS bearaing changes, no bore score) for 10k, 996 for 15k, 997 for 20k, 981 for the same. For me, possibly like you, the 911 is an itch even if a Boxster/Cayman might be a better option.
Good luck and keep us posted, interesting to hear what the issue is with the front end clunk. Got to be something minor like a bush.
It was up for sale at Marshall & Son at one point who seem to find decent used Porsche with rebuilds.
Shame on the partial engine rebuilt but you're right, it's only one side that usually fails and the reality, given the price point, most are going to be fixed in this way unless there is money to burn. I do see the logic in doing right first time though, but given yours has got to 160k it wasn't a bad decision to just one bank.
Your earlier post about a Porsche available for every budget, confusing the waters even further, is exactly where I am at. Do you go Boxster S (3.2, IMS bearaing changes, no bore score) for 10k, 996 for 15k, 997 for 20k, 981 for the same. For me, possibly like you, the 911 is an itch even if a Boxster/Cayman might be a better option.
Good luck and keep us posted, interesting to hear what the issue is with the front end clunk. Got to be something minor like a bush.
VeeReihenmotor6 said:
Looks great, assume you've seen his youtube vids on the car? Looked very well cared for and loved in his ownership. I would have bought it if the funds allowed at the time.
It was up for sale at Marshall & Son at one point who seem to find decent used Porsche with rebuilds.
Shame on the partial engine rebuilt but you're right, it's only one side that usually fails and the reality, given the price point, most are going to be fixed in this way unless there is money to burn. I do see the logic in doing right first time though, but given yours has got to 160k it wasn't a bad decision to just one bank.
Your earlier post about a Porsche available for every budget, confusing the waters even further, is exactly where I am at. Do you go Boxster S (3.2, IMS bearaing changes, no bore score) for 10k, 996 for 15k, 997 for 20k, 981 for the same. For me, possibly like you, the 911 is an itch even if a Boxster/Cayman might be a better option.
Good luck and keep us posted, interesting to hear what the issue is with the front end clunk. Got to be something minor like a bush.
Yes, I’ve seen some of the YouTube. He'd spent a lot on it during his pretty short ownership (8 months, I think). Even with that there are still a few things need attention. I think it’s a good time for the car to be passed on to an owner like myself, who will do a lot themselves. I think trying to keep up with maintenance using Porsche specialists would be very expensive at this point. It was up for sale at Marshall & Son at one point who seem to find decent used Porsche with rebuilds.
Shame on the partial engine rebuilt but you're right, it's only one side that usually fails and the reality, given the price point, most are going to be fixed in this way unless there is money to burn. I do see the logic in doing right first time though, but given yours has got to 160k it wasn't a bad decision to just one bank.
Your earlier post about a Porsche available for every budget, confusing the waters even further, is exactly where I am at. Do you go Boxster S (3.2, IMS bearaing changes, no bore score) for 10k, 996 for 15k, 997 for 20k, 981 for the same. For me, possibly like you, the 911 is an itch even if a Boxster/Cayman might be a better option.
Good luck and keep us posted, interesting to hear what the issue is with the front end clunk. Got to be something minor like a bush.
The previous owner to the one I purchased from, they had the car around 10 years, with the Hartech rebuild being around half way through. A committed owner, who racked up 10k miles most years.
Hahaaa, yes the Porsche choice is hard! Cayman S and the 996 Turbo where the real difficult ones. I spent a lot of time looking at 996 Turbos for sale. Turbo and mezger engine has massive appeal, and the prices look cheap for what they are.
(I'll get onto the front end shortly)
EDIT, do you recall what the asking price was at Marshall & Son?
Edited by CaiosH on Tuesday 25th February 16:58
My experience is a 997 doesn't lose grip until it does and when it does it really does, only happened a couple of times when I took liberties mid corner whilst on wet chevrons, it was quite the brown trouser moment followed by a big grin when it sorted itself out.
On winter tyres they are superb in snow, I've started looking for another one as I think they are great package, but I have a tight spec which is a .2 C2S with PSE/sports seats and manual in black with the Carrera S wheels.
CaiosH said:
A few posters on there drew my attention to a car advertised which they had been discussing for a few pages.
I'll take my bow nowI'm happy to take full responsibility for this recommendation as mine and mine alone ... maybe
So I'm checking in here and I hope you 2 are getting along just fine and you will continue to do so for many many fun or even dull drives
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