"BARNFIND": 1976 Alfa 105 GT Junior 1600 - FULL RESTO
Discussion
Hi all,
I’ve been meaning to start a new thread here for a while now but a combination of buying our first house, wedding and working 16 hour days have prevented this. Thankfully, in April 2023, I’ve moved companies and with the wedding now over, my wife and I have time to focus on house and car restorations!
All my previous cars have been German, having owned a spatter of Mk2 Golfs, BMW’s and Audi’s. Therefore, this will be a very new experience and a lot of learning.
The below post is a little long but I think this is the one of, if not THE CHEAPEST Alfa 105 in the UK. My plan is to update this thread but additionally I’m thinking of starting a Youtube Channel with this as the main series.
The story begins about 10 years ago, my next door neighbour at my family home always had old cars littering the driveway. From old Citroens, to Lancia’s and MG’s. I was in Sixth Form College at the time and working part time at a local pharmacy when I met someone with a very similar address to mine. From that, we got speaking and I remarked about the cars in the driveway and a model of a Ferrari 250 GTO I could see from a window and left it at that.
Over the coming years, as cars sitting on the driveway were scrapped/sold, we interacted and he started to tell me about some of the other cars he had in the double garage behind and said I should come and see them. So I walked over and initially saw a 60’s Mini Cooper and a Citroen Traction Avant, and had a good chat about them. They were both needing restoration work and turned out the Mini wasn’t for sale (I did ask,) it was his first car and had owned it approx 50 years. I noticed that in the corner there was “something’ covered in boxes and car parts all around it and I mean really covered, couldn’t see the roof or any of the bodywork, literally just the A and C pillars. I asked about it and he told me it was an old Alfa Romeo GT1600 Junior which he had kept since ’80’s due to the exhaust falling off. His plan was to fully restore it. I didn’t know much about Alfa’s in general but was curious as to what this was. I did a bit of googling/youtube and couldn’t believe he had something like this just sitting there in the garage, almost immediately falling in love with the noise and the shape.
So, I went back to him a week later to ask if I could see the car more clearly and if he would be interested in selling if it was the right car for me. He stated that he was on the fence and wanted to restore it really but would gladly clear out the garage and show me. This was 7 years ago.
Fast forward, I’d been bugging him and his wife over the years if he had the time show me and we had several chats about the current cars (at the time) I owned or been working on. Finally, one day, I get a call - said he was going to sell the Alfa so he could focus on the Mini restoration and was clearing out the garage. Typically, we was in process of buying our first house and money was in escrow. However, I had to go and at least view after all these years:
This is what I was presented with - perhaps a “solid”, complete example of a late smoothnose Rosso GTJ1600. I was very happy to see it was one with the smaller prettier rear panel/lights. I told him I would love the car but with the house purchase going through it might be a few months that I could afford to buy. However, this is where it got interesting, I asked about the price and he stated that he would like around the 2k mark. I said that I think he could get a lot more, more like triple that number at the very least. He said he wasn’t interested to sell online and would love it to go to someone who will do a full restoration and not to sell on. So, with the promise that I would keep to restore and that I would come back to show him when complete we settled on what I believe would be the cheapest Alfa 105 in the UK, maybe even further. Thankfully, I had a bit of money spare.
In the meantime, we moved into the new house and arranged for my father and father in law to help myself with the recovery:
At the new resting place, some better pictures - still unsure on what to do with the Webasto roof but it could be a cool addition to keep:
Last Tax disc on the car:
Overall, the car seems really solid; for an Alfa anyway, really itching to get started and rolling. I posted up on the 105 Register on facebook as account of the sticker and interestingly found the car has been local since new.
More worryingly, the previous owner said that the car was exactly as he put the car away structurally. It’s had the sills done, the firewall is all good but the lower front arches need work and it has a big hole on the c pillar and spare wheel well. Also, there’s some rust on the roof where it meets the rear screen and webasto. So it was only 11 years old!
So, what’s the plan?
In my eyes, I need to still find the objective, it’s likely to be a road car to be enjoyed with the family. The interior is really clean, no rips but badly faded and the sponge is toast. Next thing up is to find out if the engine turns over, if it’s toast then it’s likely 2.0 Twin spark with injection will go in - the same formula as the Alfaholics GTA-R. Still undecided on the websato roof but i think my initial thoughts are leaning to OEM+, full nut and bolt restoration, not really a budget in mind but can see it going upwards of 50k+ quite easily.
Anyway, I’ll leave it there as a first post and then update in due course - I'm hopefully moving the car into my newly acquired unit soon so can really crack on with some dismantling. As I say, I'm also likely to start a Youtube channel/series to document the progress. Let me know if you think it'll be of interest. Currently, all progress will be on here and my instagram (@sammystirrup).
Thanks,
Sam
I’ve been meaning to start a new thread here for a while now but a combination of buying our first house, wedding and working 16 hour days have prevented this. Thankfully, in April 2023, I’ve moved companies and with the wedding now over, my wife and I have time to focus on house and car restorations!
All my previous cars have been German, having owned a spatter of Mk2 Golfs, BMW’s and Audi’s. Therefore, this will be a very new experience and a lot of learning.
The below post is a little long but I think this is the one of, if not THE CHEAPEST Alfa 105 in the UK. My plan is to update this thread but additionally I’m thinking of starting a Youtube Channel with this as the main series.
The story begins about 10 years ago, my next door neighbour at my family home always had old cars littering the driveway. From old Citroens, to Lancia’s and MG’s. I was in Sixth Form College at the time and working part time at a local pharmacy when I met someone with a very similar address to mine. From that, we got speaking and I remarked about the cars in the driveway and a model of a Ferrari 250 GTO I could see from a window and left it at that.
Over the coming years, as cars sitting on the driveway were scrapped/sold, we interacted and he started to tell me about some of the other cars he had in the double garage behind and said I should come and see them. So I walked over and initially saw a 60’s Mini Cooper and a Citroen Traction Avant, and had a good chat about them. They were both needing restoration work and turned out the Mini wasn’t for sale (I did ask,) it was his first car and had owned it approx 50 years. I noticed that in the corner there was “something’ covered in boxes and car parts all around it and I mean really covered, couldn’t see the roof or any of the bodywork, literally just the A and C pillars. I asked about it and he told me it was an old Alfa Romeo GT1600 Junior which he had kept since ’80’s due to the exhaust falling off. His plan was to fully restore it. I didn’t know much about Alfa’s in general but was curious as to what this was. I did a bit of googling/youtube and couldn’t believe he had something like this just sitting there in the garage, almost immediately falling in love with the noise and the shape.
So, I went back to him a week later to ask if I could see the car more clearly and if he would be interested in selling if it was the right car for me. He stated that he was on the fence and wanted to restore it really but would gladly clear out the garage and show me. This was 7 years ago.
Fast forward, I’d been bugging him and his wife over the years if he had the time show me and we had several chats about the current cars (at the time) I owned or been working on. Finally, one day, I get a call - said he was going to sell the Alfa so he could focus on the Mini restoration and was clearing out the garage. Typically, we was in process of buying our first house and money was in escrow. However, I had to go and at least view after all these years:
This is what I was presented with - perhaps a “solid”, complete example of a late smoothnose Rosso GTJ1600. I was very happy to see it was one with the smaller prettier rear panel/lights. I told him I would love the car but with the house purchase going through it might be a few months that I could afford to buy. However, this is where it got interesting, I asked about the price and he stated that he would like around the 2k mark. I said that I think he could get a lot more, more like triple that number at the very least. He said he wasn’t interested to sell online and would love it to go to someone who will do a full restoration and not to sell on. So, with the promise that I would keep to restore and that I would come back to show him when complete we settled on what I believe would be the cheapest Alfa 105 in the UK, maybe even further. Thankfully, I had a bit of money spare.
In the meantime, we moved into the new house and arranged for my father and father in law to help myself with the recovery:
At the new resting place, some better pictures - still unsure on what to do with the Webasto roof but it could be a cool addition to keep:
Last Tax disc on the car:
Overall, the car seems really solid; for an Alfa anyway, really itching to get started and rolling. I posted up on the 105 Register on facebook as account of the sticker and interestingly found the car has been local since new.
More worryingly, the previous owner said that the car was exactly as he put the car away structurally. It’s had the sills done, the firewall is all good but the lower front arches need work and it has a big hole on the c pillar and spare wheel well. Also, there’s some rust on the roof where it meets the rear screen and webasto. So it was only 11 years old!
So, what’s the plan?
In my eyes, I need to still find the objective, it’s likely to be a road car to be enjoyed with the family. The interior is really clean, no rips but badly faded and the sponge is toast. Next thing up is to find out if the engine turns over, if it’s toast then it’s likely 2.0 Twin spark with injection will go in - the same formula as the Alfaholics GTA-R. Still undecided on the websato roof but i think my initial thoughts are leaning to OEM+, full nut and bolt restoration, not really a budget in mind but can see it going upwards of 50k+ quite easily.
Anyway, I’ll leave it there as a first post and then update in due course - I'm hopefully moving the car into my newly acquired unit soon so can really crack on with some dismantling. As I say, I'm also likely to start a Youtube channel/series to document the progress. Let me know if you think it'll be of interest. Currently, all progress will be on here and my instagram (@sammystirrup).
Thanks,
Sam
Edited by Sam Stirrup on Tuesday 26th December 14:02
I have a nasty suspicion that these crack around the steering box mount on the main chassis legs and if left untreated causes some fairly serious and scary twisting/alignment issues...
My friend nearly bought one a few years back. Looked good from 5yards. Was a SA import but had some pretty serious structural issues underneath.
ETA- Just read the whole thing as I just skimmed it first time round.
That was spectacularly cheap to buy but its good that you're going into the project with your eyes open about the potential to run up the money. How are you with the hot metal glue gun?
My friend nearly bought one a few years back. Looked good from 5yards. Was a SA import but had some pretty serious structural issues underneath.
ETA- Just read the whole thing as I just skimmed it first time round.
That was spectacularly cheap to buy but its good that you're going into the project with your eyes open about the potential to run up the money. How are you with the hot metal glue gun?
Edited by Ambleton on Wednesday 27th December 10:30
Great purchase - you'll be needing a good welder and a fair chunk of time but it looks very saveable.
I think your biggest issue will be space to work around it in that pre-fab garage - once you start stripping it to do some of the welding the bits take up a heck of a lot of space.......
Several years ago I borrowed a spare room in the house for all the interior parts from a car I was restoring - Mrs BC was assured it would be temporary - 2 years is temporary right??
Edited to add - Ahh a unit would be ideal - missed that in the posts
I think your biggest issue will be space to work around it in that pre-fab garage - once you start stripping it to do some of the welding the bits take up a heck of a lot of space.......
Several years ago I borrowed a spare room in the house for all the interior parts from a car I was restoring - Mrs BC was assured it would be temporary - 2 years is temporary right??
Edited to add - Ahh a unit would be ideal - missed that in the posts
Edited by B'stard Child on Tuesday 26th December 17:57
What a find and great perseverance to get it after all of those years. Having been on the lookout for something similar for the last 6 months I would have said it was worth at least £10-14k so it was extremely generous of the seller.
I've spent many an hour on alfaholics and classic Alfa pricing up bits for an imaginary car! They are addictive sites before you even own one. Ha.
I echo the comment above that you'll be getting a lot of practise with the welder and fabricating metalwork here there and everywhere. But what a fantastic way to learn, you cannot go wrong with the amount you paid. If you want a suggestion of a cheap TIG then let me know, it can do HF start, AC/DC and has a foot pedal for less than £400 new. I suspect you will be better off with MIG though. I have a cheap old MIG to do bits an pieces as well.
If you ever hear of another 105 Alfa even in the more normal price ranges please let me know. I was thinking about going to have a look at this one;
https://www.carandclassic.com/l/C1670509
The spec is lovely, but the webasto roof is a shame, and would have to go which would be a ball ache as an amateur to do such a visual panel. Reading between the lines and prior MOT history it sounds like it is becoming a bit ripe with rust after a restoration 20 years ago. At that point I can see me being £50k in to have something really nice. I'd prefer to start with something a bit cheaper (15-20k mark) and perhaps do more bodywork and less mods so that it owed me around 35k finished (and many many 'free' hours).
I'm excited to see your progress!
I've spent many an hour on alfaholics and classic Alfa pricing up bits for an imaginary car! They are addictive sites before you even own one. Ha.
I echo the comment above that you'll be getting a lot of practise with the welder and fabricating metalwork here there and everywhere. But what a fantastic way to learn, you cannot go wrong with the amount you paid. If you want a suggestion of a cheap TIG then let me know, it can do HF start, AC/DC and has a foot pedal for less than £400 new. I suspect you will be better off with MIG though. I have a cheap old MIG to do bits an pieces as well.
If you ever hear of another 105 Alfa even in the more normal price ranges please let me know. I was thinking about going to have a look at this one;
https://www.carandclassic.com/l/C1670509
The spec is lovely, but the webasto roof is a shame, and would have to go which would be a ball ache as an amateur to do such a visual panel. Reading between the lines and prior MOT history it sounds like it is becoming a bit ripe with rust after a restoration 20 years ago. At that point I can see me being £50k in to have something really nice. I'd prefer to start with something a bit cheaper (15-20k mark) and perhaps do more bodywork and less mods so that it owed me around 35k finished (and many many 'free' hours).
I'm excited to see your progress!
well done, and the makings of a good project!
Lots of people will have lots of ideas- up to and including ditching the whole drive train for an electric setup. Me? I'd keep it original 1970s. Even that chrome rear numberplate surround.
Check the engine turns over, then focus om bodywork.
Lots of people will have lots of ideas- up to and including ditching the whole drive train for an electric setup. Me? I'd keep it original 1970s. Even that chrome rear numberplate surround.
Check the engine turns over, then focus om bodywork.
Thanks all for the kind comments, unfortunately, I'm not a welder although father in law and brother in law can weld so perhaps I'll get a MIG machine and try to learn with their help. Thankfully due to the great support from companies like Classic Alfa and Alfaholics, panels are easy to get, the only problem is deciding which material type for panels such as bonnet or bootlid and again bringing the objective into play. I'm fairly sure i'll end up just going steel mind.
@Jon_BMW - I see the car has sold, did you buy it?
I managed to get the keys to the unit yesterday, it's only down the road from my house so not a far journey but still need to trailer it over. I'm going to give it a good paint up first, the roof is currently being rebuilt and hopefully finished by EOW.
Sorry for the upcoming rubbish photos, these pictures were taken a few months back - I will make a conscious effort to document properly moving forward now that I know I have an active build thread.
In order to work out the plan engine wise, my Dad and I checked to see if the engine would turn over and if not, I'm sure that would provide a good reason for a twin spark swap.
Since August 2022, when I put the car in the garage, I've occasionally went into the garage to put GT85 on all the bolts,nuts, and clamps to (hopefully) make it easier when it comes apart. I put a little bit of oil down the spark plug holes to provide some lubrication and decided to see if it could turn over.
To make things easier, we decided to take the bonnet off which was straight forward.
Picture to remember the order when I put back in about 20 years time
https://thumbsnap.com/i/M73utvH8.jpg[/pic]
Once that was off, we couldn't gain access to the crankshaft pulley nut so decided to just take out the fan, rad and coolant pipework.
As expected, it was all full of limescale and corrosion.
You can see a little hole in the front valance and some on the battery tray.
Went to put a socket on it and wow, couldn't believe how big it was, I've got sockets unto 30mm and never had the need for any bigger. So went to the bible and found 36mm is needed and ordered.
Waited for the delivery and great success - engine is freely turning over manually - so it's likely I will use this as the base engine as it's the original, be a bit of a shame to chuck for no reason.
The question is now - is it worth chucking a battery on to get it running? Just to bare in mind, car was last run in 87 so the oil is at the minimum of 36 years old, rubber gaskets are likely original but at least there's not a timing belt to worry about. My initial plan is change the oil out, use some fuel from a jerry can to avoid the tank - the engine is still "leaded" so won't run for long but just to see if it will. I know the engine is being rebuilt regardless but don't want to unnecessary cause damage.
What's everyones thoughts?
@Jon_BMW - I see the car has sold, did you buy it?
I managed to get the keys to the unit yesterday, it's only down the road from my house so not a far journey but still need to trailer it over. I'm going to give it a good paint up first, the roof is currently being rebuilt and hopefully finished by EOW.
Sorry for the upcoming rubbish photos, these pictures were taken a few months back - I will make a conscious effort to document properly moving forward now that I know I have an active build thread.
In order to work out the plan engine wise, my Dad and I checked to see if the engine would turn over and if not, I'm sure that would provide a good reason for a twin spark swap.
Since August 2022, when I put the car in the garage, I've occasionally went into the garage to put GT85 on all the bolts,nuts, and clamps to (hopefully) make it easier when it comes apart. I put a little bit of oil down the spark plug holes to provide some lubrication and decided to see if it could turn over.
To make things easier, we decided to take the bonnet off which was straight forward.
Picture to remember the order when I put back in about 20 years time
https://thumbsnap.com/i/M73utvH8.jpg[/pic]
Once that was off, we couldn't gain access to the crankshaft pulley nut so decided to just take out the fan, rad and coolant pipework.
As expected, it was all full of limescale and corrosion.
You can see a little hole in the front valance and some on the battery tray.
Went to put a socket on it and wow, couldn't believe how big it was, I've got sockets unto 30mm and never had the need for any bigger. So went to the bible and found 36mm is needed and ordered.
Waited for the delivery and great success - engine is freely turning over manually - so it's likely I will use this as the base engine as it's the original, be a bit of a shame to chuck for no reason.
The question is now - is it worth chucking a battery on to get it running? Just to bare in mind, car was last run in 87 so the oil is at the minimum of 36 years old, rubber gaskets are likely original but at least there's not a timing belt to worry about. My initial plan is change the oil out, use some fuel from a jerry can to avoid the tank - the engine is still "leaded" so won't run for long but just to see if it will. I know the engine is being rebuilt regardless but don't want to unnecessary cause damage.
What's everyones thoughts?
Well bought! I think you've got a bargain really, and a lovely project to cut your teeth on.
Sam Stirrup said:
The question is now - is it worth chucking a battery on to get it running? Just to bare in mind, car was last run in 87 so the oil is at the minimum of 36 years old, rubber gaskets are likely original but at least there's not a timing belt to worry about. My initial plan is change the oil out, use some fuel from a jerry can to avoid the tank - the engine is still "leaded" so won't run for long but just to see if it will. I know the engine is being rebuilt regardless but don't want to unnecessary cause damage.
I would - as you're rebuilding the whole car it'll be coming out and getting a fettle anyway (I assume!) so it'd be good to be sure it'll run properly imho. It won't do any real harm to see if you can get it going, and it always provides some good motivation. What a lovely car and I am definitely following this thread.
I am in the process of refurbishing a Duetto - same engine. Don't be too afraid of the welding. Get a decent MIG and take it slow. If you are not happy, cut it out and go again. the panels are cheap enough to allow you to re-order it you get it wrong.
The outer metal is easy enough to remove and replace. Keep an eye on the A pillar and inners - they can be very crusty. Likewise, the three piece sill is easy enough to repair if it is the rocker only. The middle sill may well just be a bit pitted and can be repaired in situ.
Find Jethro Bronner and Greasy Fingers online - they both do a fantastic walk through of a 105 restoration, body and oily bits.
Personally, I would try and keep the 1600 engine. It's a lovely revvy little gem, with a great induction noise and exhaust bark. If you intend to turn it over, check the timing chain tension - there is a bolt on the front of the block that releases the tensioner - just half a turn. Then turn the crank by hand a few dozen times to ensure the tension is taken up and re-tighten.
They are robust little units, so it may well fire up and chatter along.
I see you are the same as me - you're now on first name terms with your DHL driver, who comes bearing Classic Alfa boxes.....
Sell it and buy an already restored vehicle, people do not get back what they spend overall on quality restoration work unless you can literally do it all yourself and at your own pace.
I've seen a number of very high quality cars fetch nowhere near what was spent on them.
Great little cars if you enjoy tinkering ad parts are readily available next day generally from classic alfa and others. Avoid Alfaholics unless you want to pay premium price tax on everything.
I've seen a number of very high quality cars fetch nowhere near what was spent on them.
Great little cars if you enjoy tinkering ad parts are readily available next day generally from classic alfa and others. Avoid Alfaholics unless you want to pay premium price tax on everything.
200Plus Club said:
Sell it and buy an already restored vehicle, people do not get back what they spend overall on quality restoration work unless you can literally do it all yourself and at your own pace.
I've seen a number of very high quality cars fetch nowhere near what was spent on them.
Great little cars if you enjoy tinkering ad parts are readily available next day generally from classic alfa and others. Avoid Alfaholics unless you want to pay premium price tax on everything.
I don't recall the OP saying he was ever planning on selling it for a profit? I've seen a number of very high quality cars fetch nowhere near what was spent on them.
Great little cars if you enjoy tinkering ad parts are readily available next day generally from classic alfa and others. Avoid Alfaholics unless you want to pay premium price tax on everything.
I'd say that for the price he paid, he will end up with a beautifully restored car that he can enjoy and cherish, and would still be cheaper than buying one that's been fully restored.
200Plus Club said:
Sell it and buy an already restored vehicle, people do not get back what they spend overall on quality restoration work unless you can literally do it all yourself and at your own pace.
I've seen a number of very high quality cars fetch nowhere near what was spent on them.
Great little cars if you enjoy tinkering ad parts are readily available next day generally from classic alfa and others. Avoid Alfaholics unless you want to pay premium price tax on everything.
You can’t really put a value on the enjoyment of restoring and getting the end use, and it’s not a big or complex car . Now if he was going to Alferrari it, that’s a different kettle …I've seen a number of very high quality cars fetch nowhere near what was spent on them.
Great little cars if you enjoy tinkering ad parts are readily available next day generally from classic alfa and others. Avoid Alfaholics unless you want to pay premium price tax on everything.
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