Alfa Romeo Spider 2000 Veloce
Discussion
A few years ago, having had a yen for a Lancia Flavia 2000 Coupe, but not really much of a budget, I took a chance on a "UK original 1972 2000 Coupe" being sold by a classic car dealer in Bristol. £10k
As it turned out, the dealer, wasn't the main guy, but somebody who was taking a career break and operating on some kind of commission basis within the firm.
He had bought this Flavia at a Baron's auction and put it up for sale as it came.
I did think it was odd that this white Coupe was registered as "Maroon" on the V5. I commented to the dealer that there was no sign of Maroon anywhere. Maybe the registering dealer had white and maroon Coupes back in 1972 and mixed them up.
I drove the Flavia home to Kent from Bristol.
They really are lovely cars, very comfortable on motorways, steady 75-80mph very easy.
Having a flatfour engine they corner very flat too.
Anyway...what has this Flavia got to do with the thread title?
As it turned out, I was alerted very quickly, by the Lancia Motor Club Members Book (I suspect data protection forbids that kind of publication now, this was back in 2016 or 2017) that the dates of production for this type of Flavia were from 1970-71.
That's odd I thought. Not only did the supplying dealer get the colour wrong, it also sat around in the showroom for a year...
Upon further inspection of the V5, my car was listed as a 1972 Lancia 2000 Coupe (Maroon).
What I had was an earlier Lancia Flavia 2000 Coupe (white).
Upon further examination and uncovering of the stamped VIN, hey presto, the VIN matched up with a 1970 Lancia Flavia 2000 Coupe from South Africa.
I realised that I had purchased a car with a very dodgy (recent) history.
However, the (main man) at the supplying dealer wasn't having any of it.
I was very lucky in that I had joined the Flavia Consortium.
Colin Clamp from the Consortium visited from Essex and did a thorough examination of the vehicle and produced a comprehensive document proving beyond doubt that the identity of a scrapped UK Lancia 2000 Coupe had been imposed on this car, which was a different model and colour!
Eventually, the supplying dealer picked the vehicle up, and after much wrangling with Barons it ended up back at the auction house.
The car has since had it's true identity rectified, as exists legitimately in the UK somewhere.
They really are lovely cars, very comfortable on motorways, steady 75-80mph very easy.
Having a flatfour engine they corner very flat too.
Anyway...what has this Flavia got to do with the thread title?
As it turned out, I was alerted very quickly, by the Lancia Motor Club Members Book (I suspect data protection forbids that kind of publication now, this was back in 2016 or 2017) that the dates of production for this type of Flavia were from 1970-71.
That's odd I thought. Not only did the supplying dealer get the colour wrong, it also sat around in the showroom for a year...
Upon further inspection of the V5, my car was listed as a 1972 Lancia 2000 Coupe (Maroon).
What I had was an earlier Lancia Flavia 2000 Coupe (white).
Upon further examination and uncovering of the stamped VIN, hey presto, the VIN matched up with a 1970 Lancia Flavia 2000 Coupe from South Africa.
I realised that I had purchased a car with a very dodgy (recent) history.
However, the (main man) at the supplying dealer wasn't having any of it.
I was very lucky in that I had joined the Flavia Consortium.
Colin Clamp from the Consortium visited from Essex and did a thorough examination of the vehicle and produced a comprehensive document proving beyond doubt that the identity of a scrapped UK Lancia 2000 Coupe had been imposed on this car, which was a different model and colour!
Eventually, the supplying dealer picked the vehicle up, and after much wrangling with Barons it ended up back at the auction house.
The car has since had it's true identity rectified, as exists legitimately in the UK somewhere.
After that experience, I realised that £15k was really needed to buy a decent one of these beauties, so I started lowering my sights and went to view some Lancia Betas.
However, the Beta is a very different era of car, the interiors are very "cheap" '70's, nothing like the Flavia/Fulvia cars.
Plus, the "restored" examples I went to see were very disappointing. "Restored" turned out to be, tarted up before the present owner bought it eight years before, and since then it's been sitting in a mouldy council lock up/barn etc. etc.
So...my budget of £10k...wanting a late '60's early '70's era of Italian classic car...
Then, popped up in the Alfa Owners Club website: 1977 Alfa Spider, well maintained, needs bodywork attention. Offers from £7,500.
As you can see, the interior of a 1977 Alfa Spider, is exactly the same as a 1971 Alfa Spider.
However, the Beta is a very different era of car, the interiors are very "cheap" '70's, nothing like the Flavia/Fulvia cars.
Plus, the "restored" examples I went to see were very disappointing. "Restored" turned out to be, tarted up before the present owner bought it eight years before, and since then it's been sitting in a mouldy council lock up/barn etc. etc.
So...my budget of £10k...wanting a late '60's early '70's era of Italian classic car...
Then, popped up in the Alfa Owners Club website: 1977 Alfa Spider, well maintained, needs bodywork attention. Offers from £7,500.
As you can see, the interior of a 1977 Alfa Spider, is exactly the same as a 1971 Alfa Spider.
That's a sad story about your Lancia Flavia, but at least it didn't end too badly. Have you seen Breadvan72's thread on here about his maroon Coupe?
Anyway your Spider ought to be much more fun to razz around in than the more refined Flavia!
I've had a bit of a soft spot for 70s Italian cars ever since my Dad took me with him to look at a 1970 Fiat 125 he was thinking of buying in 1972. On the car lot it was parked next to an Alfa 1750 GTV of the same age that was the same price and I tried to talk him into buying that, but he still bought the Fiat. (It was going to be our family car to be fair).
Still I did get the Fiat as my 2nd car in 1977 and I doubt I could have insured a GTV at 18!
Anyway your Spider ought to be much more fun to razz around in than the more refined Flavia!
I've had a bit of a soft spot for 70s Italian cars ever since my Dad took me with him to look at a 1970 Fiat 125 he was thinking of buying in 1972. On the car lot it was parked next to an Alfa 1750 GTV of the same age that was the same price and I tried to talk him into buying that, but he still bought the Fiat. (It was going to be our family car to be fair).
Still I did get the Fiat as my 2nd car in 1977 and I doubt I could have insured a GTV at 18!
Mr Tidy said:
That's a sad story about your Lancia Flavia, but at least it didn't end too badly. Have you seen Breadvan72's thread on here about his maroon Coupe?
Anyway your Spider ought to be much more fun to razz around in than the more refined Flavia!
I've had a bit of a soft spot for 70s Italian cars ever since my Dad took me with him to look at a 1970 Fiat 125 he was thinking of buying in 1972. On the car lot it was parked next to an Alfa 1750 GTV of the same age that was the same price and I tried to talk him into buying that, but he still bought the Fiat. (It was going to be our family car to be fair).
Still I did get the Fiat as my 2nd car in 1977 and I doubt I could have insured a GTV at 18!
True, true. The Flavia is a beautifully refined car. The 105 Spider is, in series two version anyway, a sporty little number, and top down with rear wheel drive...more on the Spider to follow.Anyway your Spider ought to be much more fun to razz around in than the more refined Flavia!
I've had a bit of a soft spot for 70s Italian cars ever since my Dad took me with him to look at a 1970 Fiat 125 he was thinking of buying in 1972. On the car lot it was parked next to an Alfa 1750 GTV of the same age that was the same price and I tried to talk him into buying that, but he still bought the Fiat. (It was going to be our family car to be fair).
Still I did get the Fiat as my 2nd car in 1977 and I doubt I could have insured a GTV at 18!
The previous owner of the Spider owned it from 1983 through to 2018.
In early years it was his daily transport. Apart from a gap from the original bill of sale (October 1977) through to 1979 it has a full history.
It has a bill of sale from, "John Pennell Sports Cars" for £5995 in 1979. Even accounting for inflation over those late '70's years, this was a pretty steep price for a car that sold new for less than that in 1977 (list price was about £5k).
The reason being that Alfa Romeo discontinued the Spider in RHD markets at the same time they phased out the 105 series coupes and Berlinas for the Alfettas, in 1977. So, I guess the last of the line Spiders, also outliving the TR6 and Jenson Heally were sought after at the time.
This is why there are no late series two cars (1978-1982) in the UK, unless imported later from LHD markets.
The S3 and S4 Spiders were available (from 1982-1993) from initially Bell and Colville, and then AR UK, but all these cars were conversions of the factory cars to RHD.
The last factory RHD Spiders were made in 1977. The final chassis number being 3095. My Spider is 3053.
As for "John Pennell Sports Cars" If you google him, you will see that he went on to change his name to Lord John Pennell and made a bit of money through various scams.
In early years it was his daily transport. Apart from a gap from the original bill of sale (October 1977) through to 1979 it has a full history.
It has a bill of sale from, "John Pennell Sports Cars" for £5995 in 1979. Even accounting for inflation over those late '70's years, this was a pretty steep price for a car that sold new for less than that in 1977 (list price was about £5k).
The reason being that Alfa Romeo discontinued the Spider in RHD markets at the same time they phased out the 105 series coupes and Berlinas for the Alfettas, in 1977. So, I guess the last of the line Spiders, also outliving the TR6 and Jenson Heally were sought after at the time.
This is why there are no late series two cars (1978-1982) in the UK, unless imported later from LHD markets.
The S3 and S4 Spiders were available (from 1982-1993) from initially Bell and Colville, and then AR UK, but all these cars were conversions of the factory cars to RHD.
The last factory RHD Spiders were made in 1977. The final chassis number being 3095. My Spider is 3053.
As for "John Pennell Sports Cars" If you google him, you will see that he went on to change his name to Lord John Pennell and made a bit of money through various scams.
Edited by courty on Thursday 7th March 07:17
This particular car has never been restored or resprayed....
Having said that, it's had lots of new bits and paintwork done over the years.
I am pretty sure the bootlid, rear kamm panel, scuttle panel and the tops of the doors and nsr wing are original paint.
A couple of London prangs in the 1980's are included in the history, along with two new front wings (at a later date), and there is a nice, "blow in" line across the bonnet. Something which I quite like, plenty of patina.
The immediate obvious needs of the Spider were...1, Sort out the rusty sills. Hence sale price of £7,500.
Apart from that, the car was "mechanically in very good condition, having been looked after by a well respected Alfa Specialist"
That is the downside of being an owner who pays mechanics to do all the work.
I think this Alfa Specialist (Jamie Porter Alfa Workshop) may have had guys working on it that were good with 156es, but pretty poor with Del-Orto carbs and 105 series cars, or else they just weren't that interested in going deeper than basic oil and filter changes.
Anyway, after a thorough check over by my local indie, "AutoBritalia", freeing off a seized accelerator pump, replacing the gearbox mounting and sorting out ball joints and steering joints, the car would, 1, start, 2, drive smoothly, and 3, steer and handle beautifully.
My excuse for buying the Spider was that I was going to recommission my old Mig welder and do all the body work myself.
Once I had the car in my possession, that went out of the window..I didn't trust myself to not bodge it up.
£4k later including panels and paint, the Spider was all dandy and ready for the British weather again....thanks to Steve Abrahams at Dunkirk, right next door to Autobritalia.
Having said that, it's had lots of new bits and paintwork done over the years.
I am pretty sure the bootlid, rear kamm panel, scuttle panel and the tops of the doors and nsr wing are original paint.
A couple of London prangs in the 1980's are included in the history, along with two new front wings (at a later date), and there is a nice, "blow in" line across the bonnet. Something which I quite like, plenty of patina.
The immediate obvious needs of the Spider were...1, Sort out the rusty sills. Hence sale price of £7,500.
Apart from that, the car was "mechanically in very good condition, having been looked after by a well respected Alfa Specialist"
That is the downside of being an owner who pays mechanics to do all the work.
I think this Alfa Specialist (Jamie Porter Alfa Workshop) may have had guys working on it that were good with 156es, but pretty poor with Del-Orto carbs and 105 series cars, or else they just weren't that interested in going deeper than basic oil and filter changes.
Anyway, after a thorough check over by my local indie, "AutoBritalia", freeing off a seized accelerator pump, replacing the gearbox mounting and sorting out ball joints and steering joints, the car would, 1, start, 2, drive smoothly, and 3, steer and handle beautifully.
My excuse for buying the Spider was that I was going to recommission my old Mig welder and do all the body work myself.
Once I had the car in my possession, that went out of the window..I didn't trust myself to not bodge it up.
£4k later including panels and paint, the Spider was all dandy and ready for the British weather again....thanks to Steve Abrahams at Dunkirk, right next door to Autobritalia.
This car is a lot of fun!
The best thing about owning this car has been meeting up with other light rear wheel drivers, actually through a Pistonheads Event thread.
Many miles and smiles, although obviously for the last year it's been more solo driving.
edit: spot the odd one out...how did he get into a light rear wheel drive outing?
The best thing about owning this car has been meeting up with other light rear wheel drivers, actually through a Pistonheads Event thread.
Many miles and smiles, although obviously for the last year it's been more solo driving.
edit: spot the odd one out...how did he get into a light rear wheel drive outing?
The funniest thing was when I went for a drive with the Kent Caterham Club.
At the breakfast stop, one of the Caterham drivers was looking over the Spider, checking the skinny tyres (164R14 Michellin XAS) and scratching his head. He asked me if I was a racing driver lol.
It's a bog standard car, suspension etc. They weren't that quick even in their day, but the Spider does handle delightfully and with the limitations of public roads, it does surprise a few modern cars, even mid-engined Caterhams.
I had a modern Audi speed up behind me on the old A20 a couple of weekends ago. There is a right hander there with good sight lines, Ithe Spider will take it flat out. The Audi had to catch back up again after that corner. The drive gave a nice toot of appreciation later after we hit traffic.
I really like those moments.
However, on the same stretch of road last year I came across a souped up Mini..big wide tyres on it. I don't know what that guy had done to that Mini, but I could barely keep him in my sights!
At the breakfast stop, one of the Caterham drivers was looking over the Spider, checking the skinny tyres (164R14 Michellin XAS) and scratching his head. He asked me if I was a racing driver lol.
It's a bog standard car, suspension etc. They weren't that quick even in their day, but the Spider does handle delightfully and with the limitations of public roads, it does surprise a few modern cars, even mid-engined Caterhams.
I had a modern Audi speed up behind me on the old A20 a couple of weekends ago. There is a right hander there with good sight lines, Ithe Spider will take it flat out. The Audi had to catch back up again after that corner. The drive gave a nice toot of appreciation later after we hit traffic.
I really like those moments.
However, on the same stretch of road last year I came across a souped up Mini..big wide tyres on it. I don't know what that guy had done to that Mini, but I could barely keep him in my sights!
Edited by courty on Friday 26th March 17:54
courty said:
This car is a lot of fun!
The best thing about owning this car has been meeting up with other light rear wheel drivers, actually through a Pistonheads Event thread.
edit: spot the odd one out...how did he get into a light rear wheel drive outing?
I'm guessing it's the Audi R8! The best thing about owning this car has been meeting up with other light rear wheel drivers, actually through a Pistonheads Event thread.
edit: spot the odd one out...how did he get into a light rear wheel drive outing?
Although it's a great RWD car anyway. A bit like my BMW Z4M Coupe - 1,480kg isn't light.
Anyway your Spider looks wonderful - enjoy it when you can.
I have done some winter tinkering.
Fitted a 123 distributor.
The original Marelli distributor was very reliable, but I reasoned that after forty odd years and 120,000 miles it may not be quite as accurate as it once was.
The 123 is quite easy to fit (you tube instruction videos plus 123 have their own instructions).
There are various advance curves to choose from, but ti change the curve, the distributor needs to be removed each time.
The curve I chose works very well. Definitely more responsive. Even though there was no sign of pinking I retarded it slightly to keep the maximum advance down to 36 deg. btdc just in case I can't get Esso 99 ron fuel on my travels.
The two main issues with the car are: 1, The engine uses oil. I think it is mainly valve stem seals (the thermostat was in the glove box when I picked up the car, so it may well have overheated in the past).
2, The gearbox leaks oil. It actually was fine until I changed the oil to Redline 75w90.
I have put some Lucas leak stop in the engine for now...will see if the oil consumption eases.
I have ordered some Lucas gearbox stop leak...
Apart from that, it gives me thoughts of getting both engine and 'box rebuilt.
However, it's working very well otherwise (aprt from slow 2nd gear synchro. but the pedals make heel and toe double de-clutching easy enough).
Fitted a 123 distributor.
The original Marelli distributor was very reliable, but I reasoned that after forty odd years and 120,000 miles it may not be quite as accurate as it once was.
The 123 is quite easy to fit (you tube instruction videos plus 123 have their own instructions).
There are various advance curves to choose from, but ti change the curve, the distributor needs to be removed each time.
The curve I chose works very well. Definitely more responsive. Even though there was no sign of pinking I retarded it slightly to keep the maximum advance down to 36 deg. btdc just in case I can't get Esso 99 ron fuel on my travels.
The two main issues with the car are: 1, The engine uses oil. I think it is mainly valve stem seals (the thermostat was in the glove box when I picked up the car, so it may well have overheated in the past).
2, The gearbox leaks oil. It actually was fine until I changed the oil to Redline 75w90.
I have put some Lucas leak stop in the engine for now...will see if the oil consumption eases.
I have ordered some Lucas gearbox stop leak...
Apart from that, it gives me thoughts of getting both engine and 'box rebuilt.
However, it's working very well otherwise (aprt from slow 2nd gear synchro. but the pedals make heel and toe double de-clutching easy enough).
Also, the car came with original steel wheels and Michelin XAS 164R14 tyres.
These tyres really suit the car. It is a delight to handle, very predictable drift in corners, it straightens really nicely.
However. This year I plan to do a couple of track days, and also a trip to the Alps (hence wanting to sort the oil use/loss).
I was looking for a cheap track day set of wheels and tyres (four XAS tyres = £550) ...
This search for cheap tyres soon became mission creep.
I had a, "Magpie" moment when a set of rare GKN Silverstone alloys popped up for sale.
These wheels are 6j, so will only take 185/70R14 tyres.
After much thought, I couldn't bear to put cheap modern tyres on the Spider, so I purchased a set of Pirelli CN36 from Longstone Tyres.
Now, I can wear out the Michellins over the summer on the track days, and try the Spider on the Pirelli's.
Oh, I forgot to mention...the GKNs are at Lepsons being refurbed...so much for a cheap second set of wheels lol!
165 R14 Michellin XAS tyres. These make a big difference to how these cars handle.
Photos of the GKNs with Pirellis to follow.
These tyres really suit the car. It is a delight to handle, very predictable drift in corners, it straightens really nicely.
However. This year I plan to do a couple of track days, and also a trip to the Alps (hence wanting to sort the oil use/loss).
I was looking for a cheap track day set of wheels and tyres (four XAS tyres = £550) ...
This search for cheap tyres soon became mission creep.
I had a, "Magpie" moment when a set of rare GKN Silverstone alloys popped up for sale.
These wheels are 6j, so will only take 185/70R14 tyres.
After much thought, I couldn't bear to put cheap modern tyres on the Spider, so I purchased a set of Pirelli CN36 from Longstone Tyres.
Now, I can wear out the Michellins over the summer on the track days, and try the Spider on the Pirelli's.
Oh, I forgot to mention...the GKNs are at Lepsons being refurbed...so much for a cheap second set of wheels lol!
165 R14 Michellin XAS tyres. These make a big difference to how these cars handle.
Photos of the GKNs with Pirellis to follow.
Spot the difference from the previous photo.
After the sill work, it took me a year to notice and two years to get round to sorting out the missing pieces.
It's surprising how many spare parts are available for these old Alfas, much easier to find bits for the Spider than for my twenty one year old 166.
After the sill work, it took me a year to notice and two years to get round to sorting out the missing pieces.
It's surprising how many spare parts are available for these old Alfas, much easier to find bits for the Spider than for my twenty one year old 166.
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