Fisher Fury, impuse buy!
Discussion
Well it lives, was pissing it down so only ran it up the road quickly. And ran it up for abit in the garage.
No old stock fiat bearings!
If you're new to my threads I apologize. I'm f
king st at photos. I get caught up in getting stuff done and totally forget to take photos.
Pretty sure my dyslexia comes with a healthy does of ADHD!
That should be a video and this one
No old stock fiat bearings!
If you're new to my threads I apologize. I'm f
king st at photos. I get caught up in getting stuff done and totally forget to take photos. Pretty sure my dyslexia comes with a healthy does of ADHD!
That should be a video and this one
Yazza54 said:
Nice one, any pics of the journals cleaned up? Curious how they came out
I did post one on Sunday but hears some more. 
The pitting is the same across all the journals. And the camera is making it look worse there basically highly polished.
And the horizontal marks are either reflections or where I've touched it.
As mentioned, I got some miles on it today, and the rod knock is so far being held at bay. And I've not been gentle with it
I've done 100 plus miles,Today!
had fair bit of fun chasing my buddy in his accord euro R. With a stop at good wood just because.
Anyway I probably should have taken it easier. As the valve train is sounding a little noisy now. Which is very odd as it's the first time it's sounded loud. I measured the intake clearances (lower oil side) as 0.30/0.35 while hot. As this is about where it should be cold it's definitely going to need some thicker shims.
However I'm wondering if it's either damaged the cam (unlikely on the base circle) or maybe the shims have dished out from running dry? I'm fairly confident it's unlikely to have damaged the valves tops or followers. But I guess I won't know unless I pull them out. I do need to do the cam belt but I'm waiting on what I'm doing with it as Im thinking ultimate road cam regrind/replacements. And valve springs to go with the ecu instead of itbs. As I can't see that the inlet is much of a restriction at the figures were dealing with for now.
The cam noise started this morning once i came of the motorway to my mates unit. t's not got any worse. What is strange is it only does it once up to temp. Sounds spot on until it's full up to temp. Even partially cooled it's sounds fine. And with the old screwdriver stethoscope I couldn't identify a particular culprit
I do need to check if it's the injectors as I suppose that's possible. But it does sound like the top end to me.
My plan is to measure it cold in the morning. And see if I can make a tool to get some shims out. I'm invested in keeping this little lump alive still. But I don't want to drop loads of cash on it if it is borked.
Very nice. Not normally a gold wheel kinda guy. But I guess if you're buying 20" bbs splits you know want everyone to know : /biglaugh:
It gets so much attention. Nearly as much as the huracan and sf90 that were across the paddock .
I've done 100 plus miles,Today!
had fair bit of fun chasing my buddy in his accord euro R. With a stop at good wood just because. Anyway I probably should have taken it easier. As the valve train is sounding a little noisy now. Which is very odd as it's the first time it's sounded loud. I measured the intake clearances (lower oil side) as 0.30/0.35 while hot. As this is about where it should be cold it's definitely going to need some thicker shims.
However I'm wondering if it's either damaged the cam (unlikely on the base circle) or maybe the shims have dished out from running dry? I'm fairly confident it's unlikely to have damaged the valves tops or followers. But I guess I won't know unless I pull them out. I do need to do the cam belt but I'm waiting on what I'm doing with it as Im thinking ultimate road cam regrind/replacements. And valve springs to go with the ecu instead of itbs. As I can't see that the inlet is much of a restriction at the figures were dealing with for now.
The cam noise started this morning once i came of the motorway to my mates unit. t's not got any worse. What is strange is it only does it once up to temp. Sounds spot on until it's full up to temp. Even partially cooled it's sounds fine. And with the old screwdriver stethoscope I couldn't identify a particular culprit
I do need to check if it's the injectors as I suppose that's possible. But it does sound like the top end to me.
My plan is to measure it cold in the morning. And see if I can make a tool to get some shims out. I'm invested in keeping this little lump alive still. But I don't want to drop loads of cash on it if it is borked.
Very nice. Not normally a gold wheel kinda guy. But I guess if you're buying 20" bbs splits you know want everyone to know : /biglaugh:
It gets so much attention. Nearly as much as the huracan and sf90 that were across the paddock .
Edited by Zephyr Speedshop on Saturday 14th October 22:28
Got me thinking there chaps, only other thing to change is the oil maybe it's a lighter grade I've used ?
I've just looked it up in the book. I was lazy and use opies system to order. It should have 15W40 so we're good according to factory. But I wonder if it had w50 or 60 in that's way it wasn't tapping before. As if it was a true valve train problem from the oil starvation it would be present at all times.
Here the valve specs to. So will measure them. After breakfast.
I've just looked it up in the book. I was lazy and use opies system to order. It should have 15W40 so we're good according to factory. But I wonder if it had w50 or 60 in that's way it wasn't tapping before. As if it was a true valve train problem from the oil starvation it would be present at all times.
Here the valve specs to. So will measure them. After breakfast.
This power graph confirm the way it drives very linear. And that it wants to keep making power past the rpm limit.
Looking at the piper cam specs and the lift information in the manual. I know it's not the full story however pipers quoted lift is 9.8mm for fast road and 10.4mm for ultimate road. The standard cams are 10.033mm. So maybe I can just fit the stronger springs, and then let it rev till it rolls over. Somewhere in the 7000rpm range and Do cams later?
Looking at the piper cam specs and the lift information in the manual. I know it's not the full story however pipers quoted lift is 9.8mm for fast road and 10.4mm for ultimate road. The standard cams are 10.033mm. So maybe I can just fit the stronger springs, and then let it rev till it rolls over. Somewhere in the 7000rpm range and Do cams later?
AW111 said:
6,000 rpm is very conservative.
I'd do the valve springs and see.
I'll try and find some figures from the rally car. Being setup for blind rallies and endurance events, it's not tuned to the bleeding edge.
The factory ecu is rpm limit is 6.5k for the delta. From the guy Croft book the valve springs will have issues above 7k. But the pistons are fine until 8.5k. So my thinking is valvespings. And see what it does. If it will get into the 130s like that id be quite happy. I think electronic ignition and more rpm with be really beneficial. It's only if that cam rolls over at 6.8k or something it will be abit frustrating. I'd do the valve springs and see.
I'll try and find some figures from the rally car. Being setup for blind rallies and endurance events, it's not tuned to the bleeding edge.
I'll order some w50 then. As it's all it can be it would chatter at any temp if it was damaged surely?
I've done an experiment today. I chemical metaled (I know, I know) so fences into the intake side drains. To test wether the oil level is part of the issue.
So once I got them all fitted and the epoxy had gone off. I put it back together to test.
I wanted to adjust the idles as well as it's way to high and I found the idle screw in the manual this morning.
It started up fine and I tweaked the idle down at which point it started to freak out bearly running and I could hear the idle valve working over time. So wound it back to no effect. Then it wouldn't start?.
Took way longer than it should 10/15mins mucking about to realize the high-pressure pump wasn't kicking in. The electrics are a mess on the engine side so I bridge the pump to the buzzbar. At which point not was running but the car still wouldn't start.
Que hours of going through every relay and fuse. Nothing. Pissed about looking for faults swapping relays. Still nothing.
Then I noticed the pump would prime intermittently ??? I'm starting to think the ecu has failed?.
Then I found this god know how I got home yesterday! I guess the engine shaking at a low idle was enough to break it.
So I fixed that and still nothing! Although everything is working. I have spark. And pump?
Took way too long realize id plugged the pump in backwards.
Sorted that and it fired straight up .
So just been for a spin. And the valve train noise is still there. When hot. However it's now limited to under braking/pulling up to a stop it then reasonably quickly sorts itself out.
When I pulled the valve cover I found that my fences worked but they could do with being higher definitely in the rear one
Front compartment
Rear compartment
So I'm thinking a combo of 50w and the fences built up will sort it . However the noise is all over when it happen? It's not obviously the intake side ?
Can't hear it in my videos either? It's really odd. It's loud only for a short period now. Then settles right down?
I've done an experiment today. I chemical metaled (I know, I know) so fences into the intake side drains. To test wether the oil level is part of the issue.
So once I got them all fitted and the epoxy had gone off. I put it back together to test.
I wanted to adjust the idles as well as it's way to high and I found the idle screw in the manual this morning.
It started up fine and I tweaked the idle down at which point it started to freak out bearly running and I could hear the idle valve working over time. So wound it back to no effect. Then it wouldn't start?.
Took way longer than it should 10/15mins mucking about to realize the high-pressure pump wasn't kicking in. The electrics are a mess on the engine side so I bridge the pump to the buzzbar. At which point not was running but the car still wouldn't start.
Que hours of going through every relay and fuse. Nothing. Pissed about looking for faults swapping relays. Still nothing.
Then I noticed the pump would prime intermittently ??? I'm starting to think the ecu has failed?.
Then I found this god know how I got home yesterday! I guess the engine shaking at a low idle was enough to break it.
So I fixed that and still nothing! Although everything is working. I have spark. And pump?
Took way too long realize id plugged the pump in backwards.
Sorted that and it fired straight up .
So just been for a spin. And the valve train noise is still there. When hot. However it's now limited to under braking/pulling up to a stop it then reasonably quickly sorts itself out.
When I pulled the valve cover I found that my fences worked but they could do with being higher definitely in the rear one
Front compartment
Rear compartment
So I'm thinking a combo of 50w and the fences built up will sort it . However the noise is all over when it happen? It's not obviously the intake side ?
Can't hear it in my videos either? It's really odd. It's loud only for a short period now. Then settles right down?
Edited by Zephyr Speedshop on Sunday 15th October 17:44
Oh I forgot to mention the valve clearances were a fraction to tight intake side .30 to .35. (.40 +- .04) and to tight exhaust side as there the same clearance (.50 +-.04) .although this doesn't explain why it's started doing it. As this hasn't been changed but maybe it's part of the noise? And the oil have been hiding it?
Mark-insert old BMW said:
tr7v8 said:
Zephyr Speedshop said:
Mark-insert old BMW said:
Fingers crossed it holds out. What oil are you running?
Cheap 10/40 Fuchs titan at the moment. As I'm going to have to change the oil again soon to make sure it's flushed any st out. I've had several of these twinks & they are pretty bulletproof. I only a few years ago scrapped an Abarth 5 speed box from a 131 Sport. The box was OK but no one wanted it. I broke a very rusty 131 Sport, then a Croma for their 2L lumps when I was building the Westfield.
Thanks for that gentleman, it sounds way way better on vr1. Tonight sore the hardest thrashing it's had. And pretty much zero noise. I heard it a couple of times coming to a stop after, high rpm runs. But then immediately settles down. So I think once those fences are built up. It will be fine.
I can only assume I never noticed it before. And it's done it all the time but now I'm obviously very sensitive to it's time changing.
perfect weather for it ! 
Love driving it, felt like mister toad tonight looking over the long bonnet
Guess I start ordering parts! I do need to pull the gearbox as something sounds very loud with the clutch engaged at idle. But goes away when depressed. I'm wondering what the setup looks like and if it has a pilot bearing ? As I doubt the lancia crank would have but the longitudinal 131 box probably needs one?
Didge3 said:
Zephyr Speedshop said:
I do need to pull the gearbox as something sounds very loud with the clutch engaged at idle. But goes away when depressed. I'm wondering what the setup looks like and if it has a pilot bearing ? As I doubt the lancia crank would have but the longitudinal 131 box probably needs one?
As the owner of many old Fiats, most of them do this and will continue doing it for many years with no ill effects, thrust bearing probably? I wouldn't be worried about itStill can't decide on cams, guess it comes down to what piper say works in my head. As there cams are for the normal flow direction. I think the cams are interchangeable between my head and earlier ones. As the profiles are the same for each cam. The pulleys are the difference. But really I'll need vernier pulleys which I can't find for the reverse flow head.
The other factor is the cam specs.
My current cam is 10.03mm lift and 276 duration.
Ultimate roast 10.40 and 288
Rally 11.18 and 290. ( Have to buy new no regrind option)
I'm not sure how much gain there will be with ultimate road ? And rally I think will still be ok on the road.
The other factor is the cam specs.
My current cam is 10.03mm lift and 276 duration.
Ultimate roast 10.40 and 288
Rally 11.18 and 290. ( Have to buy new no regrind option)
I'm not sure how much gain there will be with ultimate road ? And rally I think will still be ok on the road.
Yazza54 said:
Zephyr Speedshop said:
Still can't decide on cams, guess it comes down to what piper say works in my head. As there cams are for the normal flow direction. I think the cams are interchangeable between my head and earlier ones. As the profiles are the same for each cam. The pulleys are the difference. But really I'll need vernier pulleys which I can't find for the reverse flow head.
The other factor is the cam specs.
My current cam is 10.03mm lift and 276 duration.
Ultimate roast 10.40 and 288
Rally 11.18 and 290. ( Have to buy new no regrind option)
I'm not sure how much gain there will be with ultimate road ? And rally I think will still be ok on the road.
To get the best out of a aggressive cam you'll probably wanna up the compression too, any plans to do that? The other factor is the cam specs.
My current cam is 10.03mm lift and 276 duration.
Ultimate roast 10.40 and 288
Rally 11.18 and 290. ( Have to buy new no regrind option)
I'm not sure how much gain there will be with ultimate road ? And rally I think will still be ok on the road.
My logic, is I have to go in and do the valves springs to make it safe/ capable over 7k. So may as well stab a cam in it while it's apart.
My thoughts at the moment are.
Valve springs
Cam (ultimate road).
Vernier Pulleys
Electric ignition
Omex 600
And let it rev until it rolls over or hits 8k, ? (Still not convinced on that
)Or
Valve springs
Standard cam
ITBS
Vernier Pulleys (maybe)
Electric ignition
Omex 600.
Depending on what happens where it all goes, I guess the future would then be either. 2.0 bottomend or high comp pistons and ported head.
To put my cams into perspective. Pipers fast road cam is 9.80mm and 280 duration. I'm not smart enough to know of that's better than my standard 10.03 and 276. My guess is there would be very little if anything in it. .I can see the ultimate road cam having some gains. But not a huge amount.
I should add that I think the biggest gains will be moving to the standalone. And electric ignition. .so it can all be mapped. .and let it rev
Edited by Zephyr Speedshop on Thursday 19th October 09:35
AW111 said:
Not to spam your thread too much...
The FIAT:
The engine on it's previous carbs (it's now running downdraft carbs for better air intake).
I just checked oil specs : the Penrite HPR50 we use in the FIAT is a 40-70 weight pure mineral oil.
Probably extreme for the UK, but when you're racing up a mountain in 40+ C, engine temps get pretty high.
Spam away I love to see cars that get used! The FIAT:
The engine on it's previous carbs (it's now running downdraft carbs for better air intake).
I just checked oil specs : the Penrite HPR50 we use in the FIAT is a 40-70 weight pure mineral oil.
Probably extreme for the UK, but when you're racing up a mountain in 40+ C, engine temps get pretty high.
BS9ider said:
Im really enjoying this thread, well done and keep up the great work!
I selected Piper Ultimate Fast Road cams, Piper double springs and vernier pulleys, 123 electronic ignition, mild porting, Abarth style exhaust manifold and twin 40 IDF's. About 1.5kg relieved from the fly wheel.
The engine is super responsive and sounds fantastic. It does love to rev, torque peaks just after 6k. Roger from Classic Engine Workshop built this brilliant engine for me and can't recommend highly enough. Was involved throughout the whole process and we spent lots of time assessing various options.
That's very very nice, what capacity is it and what power is she making? I selected Piper Ultimate Fast Road cams, Piper double springs and vernier pulleys, 123 electronic ignition, mild porting, Abarth style exhaust manifold and twin 40 IDF's. About 1.5kg relieved from the fly wheel.
The engine is super responsive and sounds fantastic. It does love to rev, torque peaks just after 6k. Roger from Classic Engine Workshop built this brilliant engine for me and can't recommend highly enough. Was involved throughout the whole process and we spent lots of time assessing various options.
BS9ider said:
Thank you, 1756. Varies between 115-130 bhp depending on dyno, air temp and air filter, bonnet up or down etc. It's built with the standard 124 euro compression ratio pistons (9.8).
That's interesting as. 130 is where I'd hope to be but. Maybe not considering the work you've put in. And how lazy I'm going to be tr7v8 said:
A finger in the air from distant memories of Lotus & Fiat Twinks. Anything more than around 260 will need decent exhaust & a choke per cylinder.
Once the lift goes up then pistons need machining for clearance. And from experience don't just accept what the cam manufacturers tell you. The head could have been skimmed in the past, after market valves etc. This normally gets expensive with dummy builds, mucking around with plasticine etc.
To take advantage of more lift & certainly more overlap you'll need head work. Also as the overlap increases your dynamic compression ratio reduces so yes you'll need higher compression. Once you do that things get tighter & your engine build needs to be 110%
Unfortunately Guy Croft has passed away as he was the guru for these. Not sure if Middle Barton do twinks they certainly do the smaller Fiats.
Interesting build here may give you a guide. https://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?t...
You make some valid points. I'm pretty confident the ultimate road cams will be ok. But will definitely need to make sure it clears. They could also be problematic later with high comp pistons. Once the lift goes up then pistons need machining for clearance. And from experience don't just accept what the cam manufacturers tell you. The head could have been skimmed in the past, after market valves etc. This normally gets expensive with dummy builds, mucking around with plasticine etc.
To take advantage of more lift & certainly more overlap you'll need head work. Also as the overlap increases your dynamic compression ratio reduces so yes you'll need higher compression. Once you do that things get tighter & your engine build needs to be 110%
Unfortunately Guy Croft has passed away as he was the guru for these. Not sure if Middle Barton do twinks they certainly do the smaller Fiats.
Interesting build here may give you a guide. https://www.betaboyz.myzen.co.uk/forum/index.php?t...
I'm thinking I just go for the valvespings. And maybe itbs. See what we can do with it For now. I'm desperate to get rid of the old loom and sort the coolant hoses out it's a dogs dinner
I've realized tonight the itbs will be very close to the steering column.
Starting to think a mx5 NB2 with vvt might be easier! Especially the price of a crashed or rusty complete car. Be almost a free engine and box by the time I sold off the bits worth having And scrapped the shell. My land lord probably loses he's absolute s
t if I did that at work tho. Gassing Station | Readers' Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff